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07:05:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc
07:05:35 IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
07:05:36 RRSAgent, make logs public
07:05:38 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
07:05:38 ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM already started
07:05:39 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
07:05:39 Date: 24 October 2008
07:05:42 +oedipus
07:05:58 Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Day 2
07:06:06 Chair: Roland
07:06:17 zakim, dial executive_3
07:06:17 ok, Steven; the call is being made
07:06:19 +Executive_3
07:06:48 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
07:07:10 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Friday:_2008-10-24
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07:09:58 +ShaneM
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07:16:26 TOPIC: XML Events 2
07:16:31 RM: did you make changes?
07:16:32 SM: did
07:16:39 RM: in draft dated 20th
07:16:41 SM: yes
07:16:54 RM: wen through list and made some changes
07:17:03 s/wen/went/
07:17:04 RM: eventtarget name of changed attribute
07:17:15 RM: main piece
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07:18:43 http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes#item05
07:18:54 Forms discussion on XML Events 2
07:18:58 SM: added @eventtarget
07:19:08 RM: for listeners
07:19:11 SM: in general
07:19:36 SM: thought 2 attribute names i changed
07:19:40 RM: other in handler section
07:19:43 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081020/
07:19:43 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081020/
07:19:48 XML Events 2 Draft
07:20:34 SM: issue remaining: when are events registered?
07:20:40 RM: had an action on that
07:20:56 RM: when document loaded would be registered and loaded into DOM at that point in time
07:21:03 SP: happen before load events?
07:21:10 RM: could be tricky
07:21:33 SM: reason have to be registered before onLoadEvent fires
07:22:07 SP: onLoadEvent may know stuff necessary for document which seems to mean that would have to refire onLoad
07:22:19 RM: or protect those looking to load and trigger that way
07:22:36 SP: script run when found
07:22:41 RM: so could be before
07:22:43 typically you do something like addEvent("load", functionRef) ;
07:23:05 SP: script would get run before onLoad
07:23:31 SP: would't the code implementing XML Events 2 need to wait for onLoad itself in order to initialize
07:23:36 SM: no, not if run inline
07:23:49 SP: has to run up and down tree to register all listener events
07:24:01 SP: onLoad, but things depend upon it
07:24:12 SP: maybe that is its own bootstrap problem
07:24:29 RM: if go in through javascript and listen with javascript wouldn't be any different
07:24:58 RM: listener in script for onLoadEvent would have problem after
07:25:24 RM: no different from anyone running script using ListenerOnLoad from script interface
07:26:12 SM: 2 diff problems: 1) what to say about handlers module and when registered; 2) if implement to work in existing UAs, how would ensure outcome of issue 1 supported
07:26:23 SM: not sure let decisions about current UAs color the answer
07:26:34 SM: should say registered prior to onLoadFire
07:26:38 SP: yeah
07:26:46 RM: yeah but how to achieve?
07:27:04 Nick: can do onLoad then trigger all events waiting for onLoad -- order not defined
07:27:14 SP: could use root elements
07:28:02 SP: script implemented can do capture onLoad, initialize, then reinitialize onLoad
07:28:14 SM: implementation must behave as if...
07:28:16 RM: yes
07:28:18 SP: yes
07:28:31 RM: such that handlers may listen for onLoad event
07:28:39 SM: can't decide where need to say
07:28:50 SM: in addEventListener description?
07:28:54 SM: yes
07:28:57 RM: makes sense
07:29:15 SM: reason for confusion is MarkB says that this also wasn't clear from XML Events 1 spec -
07:29:24 SP: not place to do it -- that's an action
07:29:39 SP: place to talk about it is in the description of handler attribute
07:30:34 rrsagent, make minutes
07:30:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
07:31:05 SP: i think should be under handler attribute
07:31:14 RM: defined on listener element - optional attribute?
07:31:17 SP: yes
07:31:26 SP: (reads from spec)
07:31:53 SP: could do in separate location: whenever handler attached explicitly with handler attribute or implicitly
07:32:13 RM: problem saying that - what happens when try to add handler after - brining script into DOM
07:32:29 RM: 2 sides: 1) those that are declared in original document will be done before load
07:32:43 SP: discussed before and said that can't do that
07:32:50 RM: should ignore that situation
07:33:12 SP: little point in changing handler attribute via script - if want that effect, can use script already
07:33:32 RM: if put widget in DIV, need assertion -- can't bring in declarative approach to do that
07:33:51 SM: any DOM mutation event should cause the implementation to reexamine tree to ensure all handlers are registered
07:33:59 SP: are you REALLY sure we want that
07:34:20 SM: alternative is build page using AJAX -- if want to work, has to work there too
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07:34:55 SP: not sure -- whole point of this markup was to do declaratively so didn't have to use script; if going to use script, use script's function, not declarative markup
07:35:07 RM: may not know if embedded at start-up time or post load
07:35:13 SM: that's my concern too
07:35:43 SM: don't disagree with SP, but don't know how to accomodate those creating dynamic pages -- added after onLoadEvent fires
07:36:09 RM: could say or provide function to do it - if do insert after mnode, have to do something to reparse and register these items
07:36:21 RM: responsibility, not dogma
07:36:28 SM: address in document conformance?
07:36:32 SM: or just advice
07:36:40 SM: more than advice -- have to do it
07:37:26 RM: have to cause script to get executed in some way to get activated
07:37:54 SM: popular AJAX libraries do it by setting flag for javascripting process
07:37:59 RM: need something similar here
07:38:03 SM: where in doc?
07:38:14 RM: processing model, isn't it?
07:38:41 RM: make topic in subsection 3 - subject of how to cause listeners to be registered
07:38:46 SM: 3.6?
07:38:54 SM: after event scope
07:38:55 RM: yep
07:39:43 regrets+ Tina, MarkB, Alessio
07:39:58 SM: don't need to do in real time - will edit and we can revisit
07:40:16 TOPIC: Handlers Module
07:40:36 RM: changed to make eventtarget
07:40:51 SM: other is EventType
07:41:43 RM: other thing that makes sense in this section now -- had scripting module, but also discussion if want handler and a script - this script is a "traditional" script inside handler module
07:42:06 scribeNick+ oeddie
07:42:17 rrsagent, make minutes
07:42:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
07:42:19 SM: script element that would say "here are my handlers"
07:42:26 RM: script that is only a function
07:43:00 RM: add script for all reasons have today
07:43:15 alessio has joined #xhtml
07:43:29 SM: reluctant to loose section 5 - no home other than XHTML2 today
07:43:54 RM: keep in there; will review MarkB's issues with Mark - question: define handler or function - function takes to script handler to handler
07:44:06 hi all, I don't have Skype here... can I follow you via IRC?
07:44:07 RM: reviewing minutes and email from july
07:44:27 of, course, you are welcome in any way you can participate
07:44:37 present+ Alessio_on_IRC
07:44:43 rrsagent, make minutes
07:44:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
07:44:55 thx!
07:44:57 i/Date: 24 October 2008/scribenick: oeddie
07:45:02 rrsagent, make minutes
07:45:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
07:45:42 i/SM: added @eventtarget/ScribeNick: oedipus_laptop
07:45:46 rrsagent,make minutes
07:45:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
07:45:54 RM: shane also included in dialog
07:46:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0011.html
07:46:35 i/SM: issue remaining/ScribeNick: oedipus
07:46:44 rrsagent, make minutes
07:46:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
07:47:28 regrets- Alessio
07:47:37 present+Alessio
07:48:02 SM: handler element included in handler module, right?
07:48:02 RM: yes
07:48:17 nick has joined #xhtml
07:48:18 SP: where is handler element now?
07:48:22 SM: doesn't exist
07:48:29 RM: trying to move from script
07:48:49 SM: load external things - has @src
07:49:14 SP: handler element versus action element
07:49:32 SM: if action element had @src could fulfil function
07:49:37 RM: leave resources tight
07:50:01 present+ Roland, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Nick
07:50:29 SM: don't want to overload action -- just use handler -- make simpler - doesn't cost anything to have in content model
07:50:39 RM: inside action, put handler
07:50:43 Present+Raman, Uli
07:50:49 rrsagent, make minutes
07:50:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
07:50:58 RM: handler can be child of action
07:51:01 SM: doesn't have to be
07:51:11 RM: but valid cases where one might want to
07:52:08 RM: other change: option of either specifying want handler to run or function to run; where specify handler and where function?
07:52:25 rrsagent, make minutes
07:52:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
07:52:47 SM: Roland, do you want @implements on handler element?
07:53:11 GJR: can "see" argument for it, perhaps in case of expert handlers
07:53:24 RM: trying to think of a reason to say no -- seems might confuse things
07:54:16 RM: depends upon script - script in 2 diff modules - events module, handlers moule, and script module
07:54:33 RM: just section in XHTML2 -- need script out of events module document altogether
07:55:00 SM: case for retention: XML module, not XHTML module; beyond XHTML; like to expose script element to world beyond XML
07:55:31 RM: agree with that statement; bit we need to work on is what script element says -- XML2 script element different in terms of coding, etc.
07:55:41 SM: not really different - tried to normalize
07:56:03 RM: when i looked were definitely differences between Base and Events
07:57:00 RM: let's finish of the other piece: option to specify handler (ID) or function
07:57:12 SM: suggesting that be global attribute?
07:57:24 RM: wherever can specify handler, can specify function
07:57:27 SM: yes
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07:58:06 SM: we need to keep in mind that everytime add global attribute, polluting global namespace more
07:58:13 RM: under handler as IDREF?
07:58:18 SM: now a URI
07:58:28 SP: lost use case -- what trying to achieve
07:58:44 RM: either a handler or script library with all functions
07:58:58 RM: get functions from script
07:59:58 foobar()Click here
08:00:37 RM: suggesting that could be name of function
08:00:52 RM: how if going to attach to handler
08:00:59 SP: action element is a handler
08:01:03 SP: used default
08:01:12 foobar()
08:01:41 Click here
08:01:54 s/""/"
08:01:59 < listener event="DOMActivate" observer="button1" handler="#doit" / >
08:02:32 RM: instead of handler, have to create actionable which has to call function - can't refer to handler from function
08:02:51 SM: like elegance of SP's solution, but entire module has no inline CDATA
08:02:55 SP: even action?
08:02:58 SM: even action
08:03:06 SP: replae with script element
08:03:15 s/relae/replace
08:03:20 SM: don't know if will work
08:03:23 Present+Charlie
08:03:33 rrsagent, make minutes
08:03:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
08:03:51 instead of action above
08:03:55 couldn't I say
08:04:01 SP: instead of action above, couldn't i say:
08:04:22
08:04:32 s/if/id/
08:05:36 SP: question is: how much / often the work that handler does is single function -- this is convenience, not functionality - author convenience to call function
08:06:02 RM: interpretation will be different depending upon culture coming from
08:06:19 TV: what gets loaded and fired; ???? ouldn't hear reast
08:07:00 rrsagent, make minutes
08:07:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
08:07:17 TV: data model
08:07:42 RM: earlier example in spec: listener > DOMActivate > doit function in script what put there?
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08:08:06 RM: if have script function called doit, would have to create intermediary - that would be handler?
08:08:12 SP: or script
08:08:28 SM: all done is add layer of abstraction; still can't get to single function
08:08:35 SP: in my script core is that single function
08:08:40 RM: wouldn't execute, though
08:08:59 SP: would handler=#foo content of scrpt gets executed
08:09:05 RM: what would happen today
08:09:10 SP: declare
08:09:14 SM: no such element
08:09:38 defer [CI] When set, this boolean attribute provides a hint to the user agent that the script is not going to generate any document content (e.g., no "document.write" in javascript) and thus, the user agent can continue parsing and rendering.
08:09:39 SM: is attribute "defer" - hints that not going to do DocumentWrite()
08:10:00 SM: have @declare on action element
08:10:04 SP: not sure why
08:10:53 TV: no way to tell UA not to execute piece of script;
08:11:14 RM: what led to suggestion of adding function
08:11:50 RM: still have way of action invoke function
08:12:05 RM: actionhas function equals -- then no need of another parameter
08:12:17 TV: will some of these things have effect on ????
08:13:25 TV: 2 - one depends on function that came from ????
08:15:31 TV: respect to javascript node - if script tag has src that gets loaded - trick to make load is do Document.Create element; do things need to block or can execution/loading of document continue
08:16:03 TV: all happen after onLoadEvents fire; if have 2 blocks 1 dependent upon quote from first block, have to find these and define behavior carefully
08:16:10 SM: makes perfect sense
08:16:49 rrsagent, pointer?
08:16:49 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc#T08-16-49
08:17:27 SM: discussing handler element - decided to introduce; then discussed if needed function attribute as part of global attribute set; now keep handler and that handler can invoke function
08:17:43 SM: separate modules - XML Events does not require XML Handlers
08:17:52 TV: would like to keep separate if possible
08:17:56 GJR: plus 1
08:17:58 SM: +1
08:18:11 SM: no way to use listener that ties to a function
08:18:27 RM: handler is always a function could be specified in a language
08:19:13