06:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
06:56:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc
06:57:36 rmerric has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Thursday:_2008-10-23
06:57:45 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Thursday:_2008-10-23
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06:58:19 Steven has joined #xhtml
06:58:31 rrsagent, set logs world-visible
06:58:41 chair: Roland_Merrick
06:59:00 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
06:59:07 ScribeNick: oeddie
06:59:12 zakim, code?
06:59:12 sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is
06:59:23 zakim, this will be xhtml
06:59:23 ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
06:59:30 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
06:59:33 rrsagent, pointer?
06:59:33 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T06-59-33
06:59:55 rrsagent, make minutes
06:59:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:00:00 zakim, code?
07:00:00 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
07:00:32 changed your nick Gregorie?
07:00:40 s/ie/y/
07:00:42 i'm on my laptop
07:00:51 Roland_ has joined #xhtml
07:01:18 on my main machine i'm oedipus, on my laptop, oeddie, and sometimes on my linux box, i'm gregor_samsa
07:01:37 IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
07:01:38 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-xhtml-minutes.html
07:01:38 +Cannes
07:02:22 +ShaneM
07:02:22 -ShaneM
07:02:23 +ShaneM
07:03:13 Scribe: Steven
07:03:13 +Gregory_Rosmaita
07:03:38 regrets: Tina
07:03:45 regrets: Alessio
07:03:58 regrets+ Tina
07:03:58 regrets+Tina
07:04:03 :-)
07:05:51 rrsagent, make minutes
07:05:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
07:07:23 Meeting: XHTML Working Group face2face
07:08:13 TOPIC: Intos
07:08:27 RM: Roland Merrick, chair, work for IBM
07:08:53 JG: Jeff Gerald, observer
07:08:58 Present: Roland, Uli, Klaus, Alan Hauser, Gerald Edger, Nick vd Bleeker, Steven
07:09:09 Present+Shane, Gregory
07:09:17 SP: work for CWI/W3C, co-chair of this group and staff contact for many others
07:09:29 NVB: observer, member of Forms WG
07:09:34 klaus has joined #xhtml
07:09:46 s/Gerald Edger/Jeff Gerald
07:09:53 rrsagent, make minutes
07:09:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:10:06 TOPIC: Agenda Review
07:11:06 Scribenick: oeddie
07:11:12 RM: bunch of docs to reveiw to ensure ready for CR -- spend as long as it takes to get them to final stage
07:11:33 RM: old actions in agenda -- go through and clean out and migrate to trackbot those that need further consideration
07:12:08 RM: this afternoon: script: feature, what it means to refer to a feature
07:12:43 SP: good session at TPAC yesterday on this topic; TBL proposed standard way to record in namespace document which javascript implements this namespace so wouldn't need script line in doc source
07:12:58 RM: XHTML 1.2 discussion - what makes the cut into that
07:13:07 nick has joined #xhtml
07:13:44 RM: tomorrow: close off Forms issues ; moving forward on XHTMLMime document, how to get XHTML to work in UAs not optimized for XHTML, then get back to XHTML2 - what to do with it
07:13:59 TOPIC: Documents Prepared for CR
07:14:10 RM: Shane did a very good job upsating them all
07:15:11 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/
07:15:16 SM: start with CURIEs
07:15:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0024.html
07:15:38 CURIEs latest draft (18 october 2008) - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018
07:15:39 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/
07:16:30 SM: this draft, along with Access and Role Modules, say in prose they are CR - they are not, but used CSS to mark that;
07:16:43 SM: received number of comments over past year from variety of sources
07:17:40 RM: LC in May -- received some comments, extended period for TAG; received formal comments from TAG, replied, have not formally stated they are satisfiedwith what we did --- TAG meeting now, hopefully on their agenda
07:18:05 SM: couple of issues in CURIE annotaed with 4 @ signs:
07:18:48 SM: namespace specifications and jeremy's request for prefix; my opinion is that it is not needed or necessary
07:19:28 SP: not prefix for CURIEs, but use XMLNS to define; if lang uses diff prefix mechanism, ok to use on that start with x m l, but good thing to warn off people from using this
07:20:15 SM: question for group - questions or concerns about what SP just read
07:22:04 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/#s_syntax
07:22:48 quote from 18 October draft: "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, and that host language supports XML Namespaces, prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms.
07:22:48 @@@@The XML Namespaces specification states that prefix names are not permitted to begin with the characters 'xml' (see Leading XML). While this specification does not impose such a restriction, when CURIEs are used in an XML language this restriction is effectively inherited from XML Namespaces. If such a language defines an additional mechanism for defining prefixes, that mechanism SHOULD impose a similar restriction so there is no possibility of conflict betw
07:22:49 When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to an IRI.
07:22:52 A host language MAY interpret a reference value that is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE.
07:22:56 A host language MAY declare a default prefix value, or MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default prefix value. This default prefix value MAY be different than the language's default namespace. In such a host language, when the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default prefix value MUST be used. Conversely, if such a language does not define a default prefix value mechanism and does not define a set of reserved values, CURIEs MUST NOT be used without a lea
07:23:40 nic1 has joined #xhtml
07:23:41 RM: sounds reasonable to me
07:23:46 SP: me too, gets message over
07:23:49 GJR: plus 1
07:24:03 SM: next is also in this section "Syntax"
07:24:09 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/#s_syntax
07:24:30 SP: reads from draft
07:24:45 SM: only added because continuing source of confusion for intelligent people
07:25:10 SP: should not be used as default namespace for curies, because default namespace...
07:25:14 SM: good addition
07:25:24 SM: should note be in separate paragraph
07:25:41 SP: separate, and change SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT
07:25:48 SM: in which case it is not a note
07:25:57 GJR: fine by me too - plus 1
07:26:12 SM: "MUST NOT used as default..."
07:26:49 SM: those who like low-level specs as flexible as possible may not like this
07:27:29 RM: SHOULD NOT suggests may do anyway
07:27:41 GJR: SHOULD NOT allows if "compelling reason"
07:27:59 RM: allowed an opt-out to do what can no longer do
07:28:19 SM: stopped people using xml default namespace as CURIE default prefix, which i like
07:28:42 GJR: agree that should be -- er, must be -- a MUST NOT
07:29:12 SM: no compelling usecase for using default ns - all using xmlns for is to associate prefix string with IRI prefix
07:29:20 SM: good suggestion Steven
07:29:33 SP: no mechanism for defining default prefix - comes from language
07:30:15 SM: allow default prefix, so possible to have 2 prefixes; could have default prefix implied by CURIE with NO colon at all, and a defaullt prefix when there is a colon
07:30:22 SP: default prefix and empty prefix
07:30:28 SM: yes; reserved values conceopt
07:30:49 SP: declare by fiat in XML, but don't give opportunity to change
07:30:55 SM: host language may do it
07:31:15 SP: but this spec doesn't provide mechanisms for doing it; no mechanism for empty or default
07:31:34 SM: proposal from RDFa proposes changing prefix on fly -- good idea in their case
07:32:07 SP: if they are proposing method of changing default on fly, what is argument against using xmlns mechanism for doing that
07:32:26 RM: trying to stop confusion and work arounds
07:33:01 SM: namespace of xml elements and attributes has nothing to do with prefix or default prefix associated with CURIEs in document; coupling them can't be a good idea
07:33:16 RM: prefixed and unprifixed -- unprefixed means?
07:33:30 SM: i have to fix that - should use term "reserved value"
07:33:42 SM: would also make consistent with RDFa
07:33:49 RM: that was at back of my mind
07:33:59 rrsagent, make minutes
07:33:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:34:13 RM: are we satisfied with our new statement?
07:34:18 SM: plus 1
07:34:20 GJR: plus 1
07:34:29 RM: disagree?
07:34:48 (no disagreement logged)
07:34:54 SP: only 2 diff bits of text
07:35:01 SM: yes, have to discuss exit criteria
07:35:41 SP: basically have implementations in RDFa, so just cound number of implementations that RDFa used to get through CR; find 2 interoperable implementations and cite them
07:35:55 RM: just want to make sure that everything talk about in CURIEs is used in RDFa
07:36:08 SM: believe every feature in here is used by RDFa
07:36:37 RM: still want 2 interop implementations of each feature; have confidence can achieve because of RDFa implementations
07:37:02 SM: test suite for RDFa could be adapted for CURIE test suite
07:37:08 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
07:37:19 SP: can't we point to that and say this is the test suite for CURIEs as well
07:37:32 SM: building block - doesn't don anything on its own
07:37:55 SM: Roland, datatype we defined not used in RDFa --
07:38:10 SP: if click on details of example 64
07:38:33 SM: think safe to leave - hybrid datatype - so i don't think is a big deal/obstacle
07:39:31 SM: where might run into trouble is old issue of value space versus lexical space will continue to come up and problem may be that people who raise issue speak diff laguage than we do; talking past each other; we don't understand problem and they can't understand why we do't understand
07:39:47 SM: removed "lexical space" and "value space" from document at advice of TAG
07:40:04 SP: ok
07:40:26 SP: then don't have to test, although test 64 of RDFa test harness does do that
07:40:49 RM: RDfa doesn't use safe_CURIEs
07:41:06 SP: rel is allowed to be list of CURIEs -- is there a test that has a list of CURIEs?
07:41:25 SM: yes, there is - not sure test of rel that combines use of reserved values and things that use colons
07:42:03 SP: write down what we need to test in what combinations and compare to RDFa harness
07:42:27 RM: could test against RDFa - if don't support feature we've added have to go elsewhere or create own
07:42:30 RM: Role?
07:42:40 SM: list of CURIEs not safe_CURIEs
07:42:45 SP: rel?
07:42:54 SM: doesn't use safe_CURIEs
07:43:02 SP: why in test harness
07:43:12 SM: probably to fail
07:43:41 SP: test 65 title is wrong - has a resource with safe_CURIE, but no rel with safe_CURIE
07:44:20 SP: all safe_CURIEs they test are blank mode -- not testing real safe_CURIEs in realistic manner
07:44:48 SP: test: regular CURIE, safe_CURIE, reserved word CURIE and empty prefixes
07:45:11 SP: and a bnote CURIE
07:45:19 s/bnote/bnode/
07:45:21 SP: combinations of those, too
07:46:08 SP: 4 cases: bnode, reserved word CURIE, empty prefix CURIE, regurla CURE and safe_CURIE - 16 combinations in all
07:46:17 RM: Role will cover some of those
07:47:27 SM: hang on - would be sufficient to test CURIEs in context of RDFa; if can get away without fostering bi-directional ??? to get CURIEs through process
07:47:32 RM: 16 items in test pile
07:47:58 The 16 combinations are the 4 basic curies, then safe versions of them, and then lists of all those
07:48:00 SM: proposal: why don't i take the action to work with the RDFa test people to expand collection to cover these 16 variations
07:48:23 SM: they are open to that; plus all RDFa implementors are watching and can double-check what we are doing
07:48:36 SP: problem with list of safe_CURIEs
07:49:05 RM: still need matrix of things need to be tested; hope don't need to write own test suite - identify holes in existing test harnesses
07:49:26 RM: also need interoperable implemenations of all of those tests
07:49:53 SP: interoperability likely to be done -- at least 6 implementations of RDFa
07:49:59 the datatypes not covered in RDFa are URIorSafeCURIEs, SafeCURIE, and SafeCURIEs
07:50:21 SP: 9 implementations of RDFa in test reqport
07:50:34 SM: is operator in there?
07:50:36 SP: yes
07:50:51 SP: check to see if any failed CURIE test
07:52:08 rrsagent, draft minutes
07:52:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:52:56 SP: none of the CURIE test fail
07:53:11 SM: none fail in reality - have to validate some by eye, but almost everyone passes
07:53:18 SP: even XML Literal test?
07:53:33 SM: SPARQL engine evaluating it incorrectly
07:53:46 SP: is the test suite right only for Michael who created it?
07:54:10 SM: whole harness is open source and available -- emailing michael right now that i'm going to id more tests
07:54:19 SP: mention test 65 has wrong title, please
07:54:40 RM: what else is needed?
07:54:51 SP: 2 interoperable implementations of all features
07:55:06 RESOVLED: Send CURIE to CR
07:55:12 rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:55:37 RESOLVED: Send CURIE to CR
07:55:42 rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:58:40 SP: talking to people yesterday after giving last talk of day essentially about RDFa - some people suggested if could do RDFa stylesheet as well - external RDFa resource
07:58:45 SM: what would that mean?
07:59:18 SP: decorating DOM with RDFa attributes, but not having RDFa in documents itself; use selectors to add the necessary properties
08:00:04 SP: RDFa has to decorate every single node in ShowShow, but if have RDFa sheet (this has class of XX or id of YY) should do this
08:00:09 SM: ShowShow?
08:00:12 XOXO
08:00:50 http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
08:00:58 SP: microformat -- all sorts of implied meaning that get inherited because at top of tree marked as XOXO document; RDFa doesn't propagate down notes
08:01:10 s/ShowShow/XOXO/G
08:02:28 SP: like to represent family tree as nested lists (UL or OL) -- if want to add relationships to that in RDFa, on every node, ahve to say this node is child of parent element; adding loads of identical info at each LI -- would like to say if find UL class="expanded-tree" propogate RDFa
08:03:13 SM: started work on something like that on different problem; defining mechanisms for following nodes
08:03:43 SM: use proflie mechanism and defining rules to help RDFa processors to evaluate in profile -- brining extra intro into content of document
08:04:05 SP: RDFa in external RDF document
08:04:06 http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles
08:05:04 SM: Mark, Manu and some others working on this; interesting idea that dovetails nicely
08:05:21 GJR: working on similar concept for reuse of ABBR, ACRONYM, and DFN etc.
08:06:12 SP: Harry Halpen been sending posts to RDFa list - came up to me and said that we ought to go th HTML5 meeting this afternoon and talke about getting RDFa into HTML5
08:07:24 GJR: @profile stilll under negotiation
08:07:37 SP: rel=profile works beeter tan @profile
08:08:18 SP: loss of rev is a bigger problem; but if in DOM, shouldn't care at all; remaining question is: if attribute is in markup, does it end up in DOM; i think it has to, otherwise break dojo
08:08:24 GJR: yes would break dojo
08:08:34 SP: as long as stays in DOM, don't have leg to stand on
08:10:19 SP: HTML5 has bad validation story, but we are in position to say "this is valid" because provide schemas (validate this markup against this schema); can validate, browsers don't choke, as long as stuff ends up in DOM, we've all won
08:10:39 SP: if browsers not going to implement stuff, then will be done with javascript
08:11:17 SP: we provide language, HTML5 UA ignores what doesn'tknow about, but still gets into DOM, so can be extracted
08:11:44 SP: they say we chuck stuff away and don't do anything with it, but since appears in DOM, can be used
08:12:40 SM: ensuring Semantic Web is first class citizen is only tangible deliverable W3C has this decade
08:13:14 SM: behooves W3C to ensure that HTML5 accept RDFa
08:13:48 SP: don't think RDFa under threat if HTML5 ignores
08:14:12 q?
08:14:22 zakim, who is here?
08:14:22 On the phone I see Cannes, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita
08:14:23 On IRC I see nic1, klaus, Roland_, ShaneM, Steven, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, oeddie, trackbot
08:14:35 TOPIC: Role Module
08:14:52 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018/
08:14:52 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018
08:15:45 SM: no outstanding issues; no @ signs in document; diff marks from LC working draft interesting thing to look at -- no changes, save schema is normative now
08:15:46 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018/xhtml-role-diff.html
08:16:05 SM: very thin specificiation
08:16:17 SM: Roland raised issue of conformance testing for CR
08:17:01 GJR: role examples in ARIA test suites could be leveraged
08:17:05 codetalks.org
08:18:57 http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
08:19:18 http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/Set_of_ARIA_Test_Cases
08:19:37 http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests
08:19:39 http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTesters
08:19:43 http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTemplate
08:20:28 SP: none use CURIEs
08:20:41 GJR: willing to work with someone on that
08:21:00 SP: WAI-ARIA allows CURIE values for role
08:21:14 GJR: have to check -- may have been dropped
08:21:23 GJR: will check at break
08:21:38 SP: Overkill for role
08:22:03 SP: only need 2 tests: prefix CURIE and reserved word CURIE
08:22:20 SM: Lot of reserved words in vocab document
08:22:30 SM: what does it mean to implement surpport for role?
08:22:43 SP: sepc for Role does not require any behavior
08:23:02 s/sepc/spec/
08:23:03 s/sepc/spec/
08:24:23 GJR: role=search mockup-plans
08:24:33