IRC log of xhtml on 2008-07-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc
13:42:22 [Roland]
Roland has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0014.html
13:42:49 [Roland]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:43:03 [Roland]
Zakim, this will be XHTML2
13:43:03 [Zakim]
ok, Roland; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:44:23 [Roland]
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13:45:20 [markbirbeck]
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13:46:06 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
13:46:06 [Zakim]
the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
13:46:06 [alessio]
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13:46:22 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:46:29 [Zakim]
+Roland
13:46:47 [Zakim]
+??P15
13:46:50 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
13:46:50 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
13:47:00 [oedipus]
will be about 5 minutes late to call in, apologies
13:47:43 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
13:47:44 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
13:48:01 [Roland]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0014.html
13:48:04 [Zakim]
+Tina
13:48:07 [Roland]
Regrets: Steven
13:48:20 [Roland]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:48:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html Roland
13:48:28 [Roland]
rrsagent, make log public
13:48:41 [Zakim]
+??P29
13:49:04 [alessio]
zakim, ??P29 is Alessio
13:49:04 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:51:24 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
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13:52:23 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:52:27 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
13:52:32 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Agenda Review
13:52:51 [oedipus]
RM: Shane and Tina supposed to collaborate on something
13:52:58 [oedipus]
SM: we are working on it
13:53:15 [oedipus]
RM: review of XSD 1.1 - MarkB best person to do this, willing to volunteer?
13:53:19 [oedipus]
MB: yes - due date?
13:53:24 [oedipus]
RM: 12 september 2008
13:53:56 [oedipus]
ACTION: MarkB - review XSD 1.1 - Due: 2008-09-12
13:54:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:54:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:54:13 [oedipus]
RM: CURIE Syntax transition
13:54:31 [oedipus]
SM: if haven't heard back in 2 weeks, should poke them again
13:54:42 [oedipus]
RM: will investigate and try to expedite
13:55:16 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML <=> HTML5 positioning - nothing new
13:55:34 [oedipus]
RM: Role Attribute Module - Resolution to request CR Transition made 2008-07-09
13:55:38 [oedipus]
RM: some outstanding tasks
13:56:17 [cbottoml]
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13:56:19 [oedipus]
RM: action on GJR why "similar" instead of stating derived from role
13:56:21 [oedipus]
GJR: ARIA's Relationship to Role Module Inquiry: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0012.html
13:56:21 [oedipus]
on agenda for today's PF call
13:57:08 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML Basic 1.1 transition to PR: status - waiting for votes; email about inconsistencies in text - should review; voting closed yesterday
13:57:22 [oedipus]
RM: re-organization of groups in domains
13:57:49 [oedipus]
RM: M12N transition: status same as XHTML Basic 1.1
13:58:06 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Access Module Comments
13:58:23 [oedipus]
RM: feedback from SVG WG: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JulSep/0002.html
13:58:44 [alessio]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JulSep/0002.html
13:59:17 [oedipus]
RM: reactions?
13:59:33 [oedipus]
SM: useful to go through this item by item
13:59:35 [oedipus]
RM: agree
13:59:46 [oedipus]
SM: concerned about dependency on core attribute selection
14:00:01 [oedipus]
s/SM: concerned/SM: they say they are concerned
14:00:09 [oedipus]
SM: not sure how to respond
14:00:26 [oedipus]
RM: many of our modules have bits which could and should be reused
14:00:29 [oedipus]
Alessio: yes
14:00:56 [oedipus]
SM: specific issue: access module does not have a dependency on core attributes collection, but ID attributes collection
14:01:16 [oedipus]
SM: wouldn't be adverse to changing text to highlight ID attribute dependency
14:01:29 [oedipus]
SM: don't think really a dependency on any of them
14:02:20 [oedipus]
SVG comment: This is a problem for SVG, since the Core Attribute Collection [3] lists:
14:02:20 [oedipus]
xml:space ("default"* | "preserve"), class (NMTOKENS), id (ID), title
14:02:20 [oedipus]
(CDATA)
14:02:38 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't need comment - in minimal collection
14:03:08 [oedipus]
SM: integrating with XHTML2 - but nothing from attributes that are required for functinoality
14:03:36 [oedipus]
RM: clarify in attributes section of spec?
14:04:07 [oedipus]
SM: think req on core attribute selection hold over from HTML
14:04:19 [alessio]
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14:04:26 [oedipus]
SM: dependency is targetid needs to know where to go
14:04:36 [oedipus]
RM: define that - goes to something with an id value
14:04:39 [oedipus]
SM: exactly
14:05:03 [oedipus]
RM: @id values must be unique - xml:id or id wouldn't matter from targetid POV
14:05:04 [oedipus]
SM: true
14:05:34 [oedipus]
RM: agreement to remove comment from core attribute collection from conformance
14:05:40 [alessio]
+1
14:05:57 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLUTION: remove comment on core attribute collection from conformance
14:06:02 [oedipus]
q+
14:06:13 [oedipus]
SM: "Title and Description for <access> Element
14:06:26 [oedipus]
SM: want us to allow child elements, but not how we do it
14:06:58 [oedipus]
SM: requesting TITLE and DESC to model, but looking for 4 state XForms model; extension mechanism available for access in our namespace
14:07:09 [oedipus]
RM: M12n will allow SVG to add child elements?
14:07:11 [oedipus]
SM: yes
14:07:11 [alessio]
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14:07:23 [oedipus]
SM: may be that implementations don't make that easy
14:07:48 [oedipus]
ACTION: Shane - investigate implementation to ascertain how difficult will be to add child elements in M12n
14:08:23 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: remove comment on core attribute collection from conformance in accordance with SVG formal comment
14:08:30 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:09:11 [oedipus]
RM: targetrole and targetid values comment
14:09:30 [oedipus]
SVG comment: "It doesn't seem intuitive that the targetrole and targetid lists are
14:09:30 [oedipus]
unordered, but rely solely on document order. For SVG in particular,
14:09:30 [oedipus]
document order is of a different nature than in XHTML; it determines the
14:09:30 [oedipus]
stacking order, not the sequential order. We do understand that both
14:09:30 [oedipus]
unordered and ordered lists have use cases; therefore, we suggest that
14:09:31 [oedipus]
you introduce a way for the author to control the 'tabbing' order.
14:09:33 [oedipus]
"
14:10:08 [oedipus]
SM: don't mind addition -- allows documentation of tab order
14:10:13 [oedipus]
SVG request: "attribute 'order' = "document* | list"
14:10:44 [oedipus]
SM: not the target accessibility community wants - not sure would affect accessibility pro or con
14:11:06 [oedipus]
SM: will adding capability change its accessibility aspects?
14:11:32 [oedipus]
ACTION: Gregory - bring up SVG's proposal for attribute 'order' to ascertain if affects accessibility qua accessibility
14:11:41 [oedipus]
RM: tabindex in general...
14:11:48 [oedipus]
SM: don't use tabindexing -
14:12:47 [oedipus]
Alessio: maybe should emphasize role - not just affects order for UI, but semantic order of document; need way to navigate inside document, so think is right to guide user, but can we use only to define tabbing order
14:13:29 [alessio]
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14:13:41 [oedipus]
SM: agree with Alessio; don't think in terms of tab order, but defining navigation sequeence associated with access element; introducing role will complicate things - can have many elements with sam role
14:14:18 [oedipus]
Alessio: understand Shane's concerns - need a way to order navigation inside elements
14:15:05 [oedipus]
Alessio: think that there are many people who decide the tabindex order besides user; tabindex 200 to 1000 defined may be conflicts; complicated issue
14:15:17 [oedipus]
GJR: agree will try and get more clarification through PF
14:15:23 [oedipus]
RM: need more work/thought on this
14:16:41 [oedipus]
MB: attribute order equals - AlGilman asked for ability to set sequence through document; decided should be left for later; targetid states these are the ids affected by this key; if mix up with role, may pose problem; sequence of roles regardless of keys - more abstract layer to work on in future
14:17:12 [oedipus]
MB: need more thought on this; now talking about sequence of list in relation to role and id at some level; may recycle discussion at top-level
14:17:49 [oedipus]
SM: reaction to paragraph 2 - can remove that and say implementation defined by host language / up to host language to define order
14:17:55 [oedipus]
MB: yeah
14:18:02 [oedipus]
GJR: hmmm.. intrigued
14:18:16 [oedipus]
SM: potentially in conflict with other developments with XHTML2
14:18:49 [oedipus]
RM: stepping back to "up to host langauge" position ok, but what happens when SVG, MathML and others don't gel because all taken different approaches
14:19:36 [oedipus]
RM: normatively don't say, but could ask for guidance on how to implement in host language; if requirements to do something different, do what is best for your domain and ML based on purpose and expertise
14:20:35 [oedipus]
MB: UAs mixing XHTML and SVG - can have 2 levels of navigation - once get into SVG have different controls until get out of SVG and back into XHTML; SVG buttons and checkboxes not clear what is next
14:20:49 [oedipus]
GJR: Elemant Traversal draft applicable?
14:21:29 [oedipus]
RM: suggest back off as Shane suggested; not going to define order - up to host language incorporating it - but if have no idea what to do, start with document order unless reason to do otherwise
14:22:50 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/TR/ElementTraversal/
14:23:22 [oedipus]
Element Traversal abstract: "This specification defines the ElementTraversal interface, which allows script navigation of the elements of a DOM tree, excluding all other nodes in the DOM, such as text nodes. It also provides an attribute to expose the number of child elements of an element. It is intended to provide a more convenient alternative to existing DOM navigation interfaces, with a low implementation footprint."
14:24:20 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: ShaneM - update wording on navigation order in response to SVG WG comments
14:24:28 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - update wording on navigation order in response to SVG WG comments
14:24:34 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:24:50 [oedipus]
SM: next comment: multiple keys for same target element
14:25:08 [oedipus]
SM: no problem with comment
14:25:13 [oedipus]
RM: seems reasonable
14:25:15 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
14:25:25 [alessio]
yes
14:25:32 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: accept SVG comment on Multiple Keys for Same Target Element
14:26:05 [oedipus]
SM: external document use comment: should ignoring multiple frame comment, for now
14:26:15 [alessio]
interesting issue
14:26:40 [oedipus]
SVG comment on external document use: "We believe there is a use case for referencing elements in another document, such as in a scenario where multiple frames are loaded. Please consider if an IDREF is the appropriate value for the targetid attribute, given this scenario."
14:27:02 [oedipus]
RM: assumption that dealing with 1 document; to address multiple documents a whole 'nother kettle of fish
14:27:29 [oedipus]
SM: in case of XML Events, have CURIE syntax; for this comment, don't think makes sense to change targetid attribute
14:28:06 [oedipus]
MB: could be IDREFS or URIs
14:28:23 [oedipus]
SM: remember plural; get to one, and then lost context -- what to do?
14:28:47 [oedipus]
SM: can see having targeturi as another alternative - not sure what it buys, but if satisfies comment...
14:29:11 [oedipus]
MB: out of scope - similar things raised about Events crossing boundaries; need more coherent picture as to how to make that work to make this work
14:29:55 [oedipus]
RM: compact document type - when go into component, should be point of entry, and access within would have to be defined by those components
14:30:19 [oedipus]
RM: documents and widgets embedded in page, get black box from outside
14:30:59 [oedipus]
GJR: points out ARIA approach
14:31:54 [oedipus]
MB: those scenarios easier - if part of parent DOM, but don't know internal thing, can identify it because in same DOM (knows y is a child) - don't know how to navigate; document with IFRAMEs hop from one to another
14:32:18 [alessio]
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14:32:45 [oedipus]
GJR: ARIA trying to address navigational "traps" posed by widgets and embedded objects and should provide ability to list and traverse all objects of type x
14:33:10 [oedipus]
MB: targetid about IDREFs and anything beyond that is beyond scope for now
14:33:16 [oedipus]
SM: objections?
14:33:20 [oedipus]
Alessio: agree
14:33:23 [oedipus]
TH: agree
14:33:26 [oedipus]
GJR: agree
14:33:51 [oedipus]
SM: can do what they want with 2 elements - access element that targets something in document and embedded document - but that is for XML Events
14:33:58 [oedipus]
SM: will make edits agreed to
14:34:21 [oedipus]
ACTION: Shane - respond to SVG formal review of Access Module
14:34:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:34:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:36:16 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML2 new draft
14:36:42 [oedipus]
SM: don't know when will be finished; keep getting sidetracked by other w3c things;
14:36:53 [oedipus]
TH: have a number of comments for you, Shane
14:37:17 [oedipus]
SM: plan is to work on XHTML2 this weekend - real issues want to discuss
14:37:20 [oedipus]
RM: go ahead
14:38:09 [oedipus]
SM: during Face2Face, direction i got was remove from XHTML2 section that defines things that are in other specs so that not defined twice, which makes sense; @meta, XForms, XML Events 2, etc. -- removed, but then realized lost content model
14:38:16 [alessio]
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14:38:49 [oedipus]
SM: purpose of section to proviide content model; tried to shoehorn-into draft under mime types, doesn't really fit; doesn't explain how to write XHTML2
14:39:18 [oedipus]
SM: assume goal is person reading spec will understand what elements and attributes are available, and where they are permitted
14:39:25 [oedipus]
[general agreement]
14:39:55 [oedipus]
SM: XForms defines content model in respect to XHTML, so we have to do it but how? put back in - here are elements and attributes and how they work
14:40:05 [oedipus]
RM: show content model, not what each item means
14:40:20 [oedipus]
MB: tricky with XForms
14:40:49 [oedipus]
SM: started down that road, but concern is that someone will say, "i have to read 5 other specs to find out what XHTML2 is" -- need to agree if that is ok
14:41:00 [oedipus]
RM: opportunity for someone to make money writing a book on that
14:41:19 [alessio]
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14:41:32 [oedipus]
SM: put chapters back in, but remove content, so only table at top that defines elements and attributes with one or 2 sentences on how integrate into content model
14:41:37 [oedipus]
TH: and reference other docs?
14:41:59 [oedipus]
SM: explicitly link out to the right part of the referenced specs for each element
14:42:07 [oedipus]
SM: have to figure out elegant way to do that
14:42:40 [oedipus]
RM: present information that is useful for authors and not just understanaable by specification wonks
14:43:00 [oedipus]
SM: maximum assistance to authors, even if duplicates content, but standards part of me finds that scary
14:43:12 [oedipus]
RM: can provide a deliverable - composite content model for authors
14:43:52 [alessio]
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14:44:08 [oedipus]
SM: way back when, debate was XHTML2 or M12n 2 - group decided XHTML2, but based on modules that can be assembled into other things; there are 2 things: the language and the toolkit - have to cover both
14:44:23 [oedipus]
RM: don't want authorial redundancy with other MLs
14:44:33 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Wrapping Up
14:44:38 [oedipus]
RM: any pressing issues?
14:44:46 [oedipus]
ADJOURNED
14:44:54 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
14:44:55 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
14:44:57 [Zakim]
-Tina
14:44:59 [Zakim]
-Alessio
14:45:03 [Zakim]
-Roland
14:45:11 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
14:45:11 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Roland, markbirbeck, ShaneM, Tina, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xhtml
14:45:16 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:45:36 [alessio]
alessio has left #xhtml
14:45:45 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #xhtml
14:45:58 [Roland]
Roland has left #xhtml
14:46:05 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-actions.rdf :
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB - review XSD 1.1 - Due: 2008-09-12 [1]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc#T13-53-56
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane - investigate implementation to ascertain how difficult will be to add child elements in M12n [2]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc#T14-07-48
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory - bring up SVG's proposal for attribute 'order' to ascertain if affects accessibility qua accessibility [3]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc#T14-11-32
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - update wording on navigation order in response to SVG WG comments [4]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc#T14-24-28
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane - respond to SVG formal review of Access Module [5]
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-xhtml-irc#T14-34-21