IRC log of forms on 2008-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:02:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
07:02:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-irc
07:03:23 [wellsk]
Good Morning Everyone -- is there a tetlphone conf set uo yet?
07:03:35 [John_Boyer]
Not yet
07:03:53 [klotz]
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07:03:55 [klotz_]
klotz_ has joined #forms
07:03:56 [wellsk]
Ok -- will monitor -- but I am awake and here!
07:04:05 [klotz_]
klotz_ has left #forms
07:04:07 [John_Boyer]
OK, thanks keith
07:04:38 [John_Boyer]
It's very early...
07:06:22 [wellsk]
3:00 here on EST
07:06:45 [John_Boyer]
You should maybe get a few hours more sleep and join us in the afternoon...
07:07:46 [wellsk]
It'll be ok... I am an early bird anyways :)
07:07:57 [Charlie]
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07:12:32 [John_Boyer]
Are you able to use skype?
07:12:36 [John_Boyer]
Keith
07:13:16 [wellsk]
no, but I may be able to use Sametime voice suite -- I have international permissions
07:13:22 [klotz]
wellsk?
07:13:27 [wellsk]
yes
07:13:51 [klotz]
ah thought you might be at home but you are on an ibm network and can' t use skype?
07:15:13 [wellsk]
yes -- I do not have skype installed -- but should be able to hook in though the IBM intranet using their sametime tooling with voice suites
07:26:13 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make log public
07:26:52 [wellsk]
I'll give a shot
07:38:08 [Steven]
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07:40:12 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
07:40:19 [Steven]
rrsagent, here
07:40:19 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-irc#T07-40-19
07:42:45 [ebruchez]
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07:43:01 [John_Boyer]
scribe: Nick
07:43:07 [John_Boyer]
scribenick: nick
07:43:23 [Steven]
scribenicknick: nicknick
07:43:33 [nick]
John: There is an XForms 1.1 problem in how repeat works
07:45:34 [John_Boyer]
Action: John to Fix descriptions of repeat index update on xforms-insert and xforms-delete for XForms 1.1
07:45:34 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
07:45:34 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
07:47:03 [nick]
John to fix XForms 1.1 wording for repeat processing to associate repeat index updating with capture phase on containing model, not target instance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/05-forms-minutes.html#action01]
07:48:38 [nick]
John: We have work on XForms 1.1, I added the people who have actions on it to the agenda
07:49:37 [nick]
John: There are a couple of reviews too
07:51:15 [nick]
John: We need to decide as a group which specs we want to produce for XForms 1.2
07:52:09 [nick]
John: We have a message module, maybe we can go through it and see how we can produce an instance module
07:52:43 [nick]
Erik: What does the instance model do for us? Is it a requirement, does it solves problems?
07:53:41 [nick]
Steven: We will do modularization to ensure better consistency and compatibility
07:54:10 [nick]
Steven: We could even just do XForms 1.2 as a module on top of XForms 1.1
07:54:49 [nick]
Charlie: It enables the integration of XForms modules in toolkits like dojo
07:56:00 [Charlie]
perhaps using non-xml data, e.g. JSON
07:56:08 [John_Boyer]
Nick: Asks Steven about doing a separate module for "implied submission"
07:56:09 [ebruchez]
s/instance model/instance module
07:56:48 [John_Boyer]
Nick: Can you change the behavior of an attribute (e.g. whether it is required or optional)
07:57:23 [John_Boyer]
Steven: You would modularize the submission attributes, then create a submission element module that consumes them in one way
07:57:58 [nick]
Steven: You don't have to do them as separate specs
07:58:00 [John_Boyer]
Steven: and an implied submission module that consumes them differently
07:58:30 [nick]
klotz: How do you say which modules an implemantation supports
07:58:42 [nick]
s/implemantation/implementation/
07:59:40 [nick]
Steven: so XForms 1.2 could be XForms 1.1 and an extra set of modules
08:00:36 [nick]
Steven: There is a dtd, schema version and outside W3C there is a Relax NG version
08:01:21 [nick]
Klotz: There is sourceforge project that is an XForms 1.1 relax NG schema
08:02:16 [nick]
Steven: Ideally we would modularize XForms 1.1 and create some extra modules for XForms 1.2
08:02:51 [nick]
John: How many specs do we end up?
08:03:20 [nick]
Steven: That is up to us, one spec or two specs (core spec and the XForms 1.2 addition modules)
08:03:49 [nick]
Nick: How much work is it
08:04:07 [nick]
Steven: XForms 1.1 is more or less modularized
08:04:26 [nick]
Steven: It needs some work, but is partially already in there
08:04:35 [nick]
Erik: What does it mean
08:05:14 [nick]
Steven: You specify which elements have extension hooks (elements and attributes)
08:06:01 [nick]
Steven: What you do you write it in a schema natural way (English) and then generates schema or dtd
08:06:54 [nick]
Nick: Is there a requirement to generate a dtd or schema?
08:07:13 [nick]
Steven: No generating a dtd or schema isn't required
08:08:22 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0081.html
08:08:59 [John_Boyer]
http://code.google.com/p/lib-xh/wiki/MessageModule
08:09:55 [nick]
John: Where do you put the MIP-events they are dispatched to UI-controls but always dispatched by the model , do you put those in the module-module or the ui-controls-module
08:12:17 [nick]
Erik: We should fix the MIP-events to make them usable
08:13:00 [nick]
Erik: We could add new events that are usable in a separate module
08:13:51 [nick]
John: when you rewire controls we should send an initialization event
08:15:11 [nick]
Charlie: If you remove the events from the module-module then you still needs something to communicate with the module
08:18:04 [nick]
Steven: I don't see the problem with events, javascript is also based on events
08:18:34 [nick]
Steven: XML events is the base of the javascript events
08:20:23 [Steven]
s/XML/DOM/
08:22:50 [nick]
John: The module should send xforms-model-construct, xforms-model-construct-doene, xforms-ready, xforms-refresh
08:24:45 [nick]
Klotz: if we have a module that only does the data (no submission, no UI) xforms-model-construct-done signifies when other modules can start working on the module
08:25:50 [nick]
Steven: You have all these modules and a driver that decides how these modules work together
08:27:28 [nick]
Klotz: do we define the communication by events or as IDL?
08:28:04 [nick]
John: I have users that use the the xforms-model-construct-done to toggle switches, ...
08:28:32 [nick]
Steven: all w3c languages are events based
08:29:34 [nick]
Klotz: maybe we should do an extra level of abstraction
08:31:07 [nick]
Charlie: We could define the events as informative, and not doing the work in the default handler
08:31:35 [Steven]
Present: Nick, Uli, Charlie, John, Erik, Leigh, Steven, Keith(remote)
08:32:10 [nick]
Charie: We define an IDL that dispatches those informative events but does the work itself (not when handling the evenets)
08:32:22 [nick]
s/evenets/events/
08:34:08 [nick]
klotz: it will enable the possibility for extra optimizations
08:37:42 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-xforms-20031014/index-all.html#evt-modelConstructDone
08:39:30 [nick]
klotz: we should make events informal, and create an IDL and the communication between the modules is done by the IDL
08:40:11 [nick]
John: The instance module would contain the instance element, the setvalue, insert and delete actions
08:41:11 [nick]
Steven: There is real value that XForms 1.2 is XForms 1.1 and this extra module
08:41:43 [nick]
John: where is behavioral change
08:41:51 [nick]
klotz: that all events are infomal
08:42:02 [nick]
s/infomal/informal/
08:43:00 [nick]
John: we already hacked the xforms-model-construct
08:43:19 [nick]
Charlie: ...
08:43:51 [nick]
Klotz: we are missing cancel then (if we aren't doing the processing in the default action)
08:44:19 [nick]
John: you could cancel submission
08:48:16 [nick]
klotz: we need to have some events that invoke the IDL method
08:55:32 [nick]
John: In XForms 1.1 the repeat related stuff is put in the repeat module, the submission stuff to the submission module, the only thing that maybe went wrong that the actions went to an action module
08:55:57 [nick]
klotz: It isn't wrong, the actions are just an interface on the module
08:57:07 [John_Boyer]
break time
08:58:01 [wellsk]
brb
09:17:43 [John_Boyer]
back
09:17:51 [unl]
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09:19:19 [nick]
John: Where do we go from here, we will stick with one spec, we need to rewrite it a bit
09:20:30 [nick]
Steven: I would propose the get all elements and attributes and do a rough division
09:23:10 [nick]
John: We can set a bit on an event to cancel the event
09:24:21 [nick]
Nick: I don't like that, we should use XML events to cancel it
09:27:30 [nick]
John: Why would the events be in the actions module? We have a lot of events that aren't triggered by actions
09:29:08 [Steven]
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09:30:50 [nick]
klotz: what do you need to change if you want to switch to XML events 2.0 (for example bcz. we are modularized they just change the version of XML events they use)
09:31:06 [nick]
Charlie: it is just plug and play
09:31:25 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Draftsw
09:31:31 [Steven]
s/w//
09:31:39 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts
09:31:42 [unl]
xml events 2: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/
09:31:44 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/
09:31:57 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2
09:33:16 [nick]
John: How would someone catch the version of XPath that is used
09:33:40 [nick]
Steven: They would be separate version of the module
09:34:14 [nick]
Steven: They would have a data-type
09:34:52 [Rafael]
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09:37:17 [ebruchez]
MS defines a mapping JSON-XML: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb924435.aspx
09:37:33 [Roger]
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09:39:33 [nick]
John: explains problem with allowing different expression languages
09:39:44 [wellsk]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-adc596226cd8e557bd136ddd6f04afae92db56ac
09:40:03 [wellsk]
(module breakdown listed in 2.0 features
09:40:35 [wellsk]
also, wouldn't Mark's Message module posted earlier be a good starting place?
09:41:50 [wellsk]
1.2 modules: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-59b64c2c07c13848069d48f8097ca1b28be16d9e
09:43:33 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
09:43:42 [nick]
Steven: is going to project some examples of modularisation
09:44:58 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_xhtmlmodules
09:53:57 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_intrinsiceventsmodule
09:54:48 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_common_collection
09:55:02 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_events_collection
09:59:50 [nick]
Note that the Events collection is only defined when the Intrinsic Events Module is selected. Otherwise, the Events collection is empty.
10:04:43 [klotz]
http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/AddProfileAtt.html#AddAttRelaxNG
10:08:48 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
10:11:16 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-59b64c2c07c13848069d48f8097ca1b28be16d9e
10:12:04 [nick]
Steven: Data Properties module could have the attributes type, constraint, ...
10:13:36 [nick]
klotz: I would have thought that the module-module would have an IDL method to ask for validity
10:14:58 [nick]
klotz: So data properties needs to modify the DOM to allow adding properties to nodes
10:17:05 [nick]
klotz: it could be possible that the user-defined properties can only be added by other modules
10:22:05 [nick]
Steven: starts writing the modules on the wall
10:34:41 [nick]
xforms
10:34:41 [nick]
data
10:34:41 [nick]
Instance data
10:34:41 [nick]
type
10:34:41 [nick]
Meta data
10:34:42 [nick]
manipulators
10:34:44 [nick]
logic
10:34:46 [nick]
submissions
10:34:48 [nick]
binding
10:34:50 [nick]
constraint
10:34:52 [nick]
calculate
10:34:54 [nick]
relevant
10:34:56 [nick]
controls
10:34:58 [nick]
container Form controls
10:35:00 [nick]
group
10:35:02 [nick]
repeat
10:35:04 [nick]
input Form controls
10:35:06 [nick]
outut Form controls
10:35:09 [nick]
10:35:10 [nick]
label
10:35:12 [nick]
messaging
10:36:07 [John_Boyer]
lunch
12:04:29 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #forms
12:05:55 [unl]
unl has joined #forms
12:08:31 [Roger]
Roger has joined #forms
12:34:02 [ebruchez]
FYI XProc uses an xpath-version attribute to specify the version of XPath requested: http://www.w3.org/TR/xproc/#xpath-context
12:43:31 [nick]
xforms
12:43:31 [nick]
Model
12:43:31 [nick]
data
12:43:31 [nick]
Instance data
12:43:31 [nick]
type
12:43:32 [nick]
Meta data
12:43:34 [nick]
Properties set, get, create
12:43:36 [nick]
manipulators
12:43:38 [nick]
IDL for set, get, insert, delete
12:43:40 [nick]
bind
12:43:42 [nick]
expression engine
12:43:44 [nick]
logic
12:43:46 [nick]
constraint
12:43:48 [nick]
calculate
12:43:50 [nick]
relevant
12:43:52 [nick]
controls
12:43:54 [nick]
container Form controls
12:43:56 [nick]
group
12:43:58 [nick]
repeat
12:44:00 [nick]
switch
12:44:02 [nick]
input Form controls
12:44:05 [nick]
outut Form controls
12:44:06 [nick]
12:44:08 [nick]
label
12:44:10 [nick]
messaging
12:44:12 [nick]
submission
12:44:14 [nick]
cross-cutting:
12:44:16 [nick]
actions
12:44:18 [nick]
events
12:44:20 [nick]
IDL
12:44:22 [nick]
elements + Attrs
12:44:24 [nick]
expression extension functions
12:44:44 [nick]
xforms
12:44:44 [nick]
-Model
12:44:44 [nick]
--data
12:44:44 [nick]
---Instance data
12:44:44 [nick]
----type
12:44:45 [nick]
---Meta data
12:44:47 [nick]
----Properties set, get, create
12:44:49 [nick]
---manipulators
12:44:51 [nick]
----IDL for set, get, insert, delete
12:44:53 [nick]
---bind
12:44:55 [nick]
---expression engine
12:44:57 [nick]
--logic
12:44:59 [nick]
---constraint
12:45:02 [nick]
---calculate
12:45:03 [nick]
---relevant
12:45:05 [nick]
-controls
12:45:07 [nick]
--container Form controls
12:45:09 [nick]
---group
12:45:12 [nick]
---repeat
12:45:13 [nick]
---switch
12:45:16 [nick]
--input Form controls
12:45:17 [nick]
--outut Form controls
12:45:19 [nick]
--
12:45:21 [nick]
label
12:45:23 [nick]
messaging
12:45:25 [nick]
submission
12:47:06 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-model-instance
12:47:36 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-abstract
12:48:27 [nick]
TOPIC: Instance module
12:48:39 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-model-instance
12:48:46 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-abstract
12:57:10 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:57:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven
12:57:52 [Steven]
Meeting: XForms FtF, Amsterdam, Day 1
12:58:10 [Steven]
Chair: John
12:58:24 [Steven]
Present+Rafael
12:58:28 [Steven]
Present+Roger
12:59:01 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_instance_data_module
13:00:06 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:00:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:02:54 [Steven]
Regrets: MarkS
13:04:31 [nick]
discussion about adding setvalue, getvalue, ... to instance, there are problems if you use another expression engine (context, expressions), you also have the problem that readonly needs to be enforced which is in the logic module
13:05:08 [nick]
john: you need to be able to override the IDL functions
13:05:33 [nick]
klotz: maybe we need pre/post hooks
13:08:38 [nick]
klotz: how can we give access to the DOM interface and support read-only
13:10:29 [nick]
klotz: we can do this by specifying precisely what operations are allowed
13:15:13 [Steven]
that is Mark typing
13:15:38 [markbirbeck]
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13:25:39 [Steven]
Present+MarkB
13:33:22 [nick]
John: value change events are send to UI-controls and send during refresh, not when the instance changes
13:34:36 [nick]
Charlie: I think we need to focus on refactoring to modules and not discuss the related new features
13:34:51 [nick]
John: but they may change the modules
13:36:43 [nick]
John: We already have getInstance(), maybe we should shoot it
13:37:09 [nick]
Charlie: lets modularize first then later fix
13:39:55 [nick]
Uli: we have an XPath data model not a DOM model
13:42:05 [nick]
John: we can use XFormsNode and define our operations
13:42:24 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:42:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:42:32 [nick]
Erik: Don't create the 6th XML representation model
13:44:14 [nick]
Erik: we can use infoset
13:45:13 [nick]
s/infoset/XML Information Set (Infoset)/
13:45:25 [klotz]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-XPath/idl-definitions.html
13:53:57 [unl]
unl has joined #forms
13:58:34 [nick]
in java they have http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/index.html?javax/script/ScriptEngineManager.html
13:58:46 [nick]
http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/javax/script/ScriptContext.html
13:58:51 [nick]
(wrong link)
14:04:25 [nick]
klotz: explains that leaf nodes in JSON can't an object that holds the value
14:04:33 [markbirbeck]
I'm not quite sure what you guys are talking about...but if you are discussing 'access languages' for different data models, I think it might not be the right approach.
14:04:57 [markbirbeck]
XPath and XQuery are 'abstract' syntaxes, and the XPath data model is 'abstract' too.
14:05:09 [markbirbeck]
So we can still access JSON data with XPath.
14:05:34 [markbirbeck]
I could...sorry.
14:05:38 [Steven]
:-)
14:06:18 [markbirbeck]
The Ubiquity XForms processor uses Google's AjaXSLT library...
14:06:33 [markbirbeck]
...that implements XML an XSLT on browsers that don't have it natively...
14:06:48 [markbirbeck]
...so an XPath query there is effectlively querying against JSON.
14:06:50 [klotz]
John asked if we could define IDL to get the references from an expression-lanuage string and have it return an object array; I said that in the JSON implementation, it would be necessary to return tuples of {hash,name}, and Uli said just returning an array of strings simply for the path.
14:07:02 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has left #forms
14:07:14 [Charlie]
not clear if that (xpath over json) is an attractive option for the current ajax community
14:07:31 [klotz]
We've discussed that it's possible to apply Xpath to a JSON data model, and with suitable restrictions (first-node at each level, no mixed content, no attributes) it's possible to apply a JSON expression to an XML data model.
14:07:41 [markbirbeck]
Charlie...I agree that there is a question there.
14:07:54 [markbirbeck]
But note that lots of libraries now are letting you express CSS with XPath.
14:08:11 [markbirbeck]
So we shouldn't assume that XPath is a 'no no'.
14:10:42 [klotz]
So we follow YAGNI and decide not to worry about JSON while we are working on modularization today, not having sufficient examples to generalize from.
14:12:59 [klotz]
http://c2.com/xp/YouArentGonnaNeedIt.html
14:13:08 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #forms
14:13:54 [nick]
charlie: lets make it work with XML first
14:14:18 [nick]
John: what does getReferences return: NodeList
14:14:57 [nick]
John: what does getDocument() return: DOMDocument
14:16:43 [klotz]
I think if you implement the instance module in isolation you need DOM, but if you wrap instance up in the rest of XForms it's your choice as an implementor whether to expose it or not.
14:21:43 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-XPath/idl-definitions.html
14:23:14 [nick]
Erik: Is not enough for us, the context needs a position and context-size
14:23:46 [nick]
Erik: Otherwise position() and last() wouldn't work
14:35:35 [nick]
John: When repeat adds index() does it becomes available in all modules, or only in some modules
14:42:44 [nick]
Erik: How do we define in our language which functions are allowed where?
15:08:16 [markbirbeck]
I'm not following this idea of "which functions are allowed where".
15:08:40 [markbirbeck]
The extension mechanism is via @functions, is it not?
15:08:52 [markbirbeck]
So aren't the functions then available to that model?
15:09:06 [markbirbeck]
Is there a suggestion that we need more than that?
15:10:48 [Steven]
say it out loud Mark
15:20:00 [Charlie]
we're in the instance module so we don't have @functions
15:20:24 [Charlie]
unless we reintroduce it there...
15:41:19 [markbirbeck]
You're trying to define an instance module that is independent of a model?
15:41:50 [markbirbeck]
Isn't that pretty much the DOM? (Putting aside data model.)
15:42:14 [ebruchez]
String positionAttribute,
15:42:14 [ebruchez]
List collectionToBeUpdated,
15:42:15 [ebruchez]
NodeInfo insertContextNodeInfo,
15:42:15 [ebruchez]
List originObjects,
15:42:15 [ebruchez]
int insertionIndex
15:42:17 [markbirbeck]
JavaScript supports pretty much everything...including aspects, John. :)
15:46:59 [klotz]
Aspect-Oriented Javascript: http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/31695
15:47:54 [John_Boyer]
end of day
15:48:02 [Charlie]
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15:48:38 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:48:45 [wellsk]
wellsk has left #forms
15:48:51 [Roger]
Roger has left #forms
15:49:55 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has left #forms