IRC log of ua on 2008-05-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:33:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-ua-irc
17:33:42 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:33:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:33:59 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 34 minutes ago
17:34:56 [oedipus]
i have to reboot my machine - haven't had time to reply to JR's comments, but i like his access rewording
17:35:22 [oedipus]
hopefully the review will be quick....
17:35:31 [oedipus]
off to reboot...
17:51:34 [Jan]
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oedipus has joined #ua
17:56:53 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:56:55 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:57:22 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
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-AllanJ
17:57:23 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
17:58:06 [Zakim]
+??P12
17:58:16 [Jan]
zakim, ??P12 is really Jan
17:58:16 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:58:46 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
18:02:44 [AllanJ]
regrets: Sean Hayes
18:04:45 [oedipus]
zakim, what time is it?
18:04:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, oedipus.
18:05:26 [oedipus]
zakim, please pick a victim
18:05:26 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AllanJ
18:05:40 [oedipus]
chair: Jim_Allan
18:06:11 [Jan]
scribe: Jeanne
18:07:03 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML Access Module Rewording
18:07:12 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule
18:07:18 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/AccessElement
18:07:23 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/ActivateAttribute
18:07:28 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/KeyMappingBinding
18:08:34 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/AccessElement
18:08:35 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0083.html
18:08:54 [oedipus]
JR's re-wording: "The access element assigns an accessibility mapping to elements within a document. Actuating the mapping results in the element gaining focus <INS>(either the document focus or an inspection focus, as determined by the user agent), and, if set by the author and permitted by the user's settings, in one or more other events being activated.</INS> "
18:09:00 [jeanne]
JR: Access element is where we have the most agreement.
18:09:55 [jeanne]
if it is going to fire, it must be set by the author and approved by the user agent.
18:10:15 [jeanne]
The "optional" is redundent
18:10:21 [oedipus]
plus 1 from GJR
18:11:16 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:11:21 [judy]
zakim, code?
18:11:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy
18:11:35 [AllanJ]
+1 on Jan Rewording
18:11:46 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:12:03 [Zakim]
+DeanHudson
18:12:07 [Zakim]
-Judy
18:12:23 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/AccessElement
18:12:30 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:13:38 [jeanne]
reviewed JR rewording of access element definition and accepted Jan's rewording.
18:13:53 [jeanne]
JR has updated in wiki
18:14:27 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/ActivateAttribute
18:15:05 [Zakim]
+Cantor
18:16:06 [oedipus]
original wording: "The activate attribute indicates whether a target element should be activated or not once it obtains focus. The default value for this attribute is "no", indicating that the element will not be "activated". User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding the setting of the activate attribute. In such user agents, user-specified settings must take precendence [sic]. "
18:16:45 [oedipus]
GJR's re-wording: "The activate attribute indicates whether a target element should be activated or not once it obtains focus. The default value for this attribute is "no", indicating that the element will not be "activated". User agents <INS>must provide a means of identifying the shortcuts that can be used in a document. This may be accomplished in different ways by different implementations, for example through direct interaction with the application or via t
18:18:33 [oedipus]
JR's re-wording: "The activate attribute indicates whether a target element should be activated or not once it obtains focus. The default value for this attribute is "no", indicating that the element will not be "activated". User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding the author setting with user-specified settings in order to ensure that the act of moving content focus does not cause the user agent to take any further action, as required by UAAG 1.0 (Chec
18:18:33 [oedipus]
In any case, user agents MUST provide keyboard mechanisms for "activating" any event associated with the focused element, as required by UAAG 1.0 (Checkpoint 1.2).
18:18:33 [oedipus]
"
18:20:11 [jeanne]
take the second paragrash and move it to the keybinding section.
18:21:42 [jeanne]
GR will update wiki to move all to the third section.
18:22:42 [jeanne]
the info on providing a means of identifying the shortcuts will migrate to the third section.
18:22:44 [Alan]
Alan has joined #ua
18:23:03 [jeanne]
JA: 9.5 is also a P2
18:23:13 [Alan]
Testing...
18:24:11 [Alan]
Thanks Jeanne
18:24:31 [jeanne]
Gez Lemen says we haven't addressed the issue of persistence.
18:25:19 [jeanne]
... he gives the example of alternate stylesheets that change back to main when page is refreshed or changed. The access keys should also persist.
18:25:29 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/KeyMappingBinding
18:26:09 [jeanne]
JA: that should move to key binding and not stay in @activate.
18:28:21 [jeanne]
when a user overrides the author's preferred key, that the user's preferred key should presist. That should go to keybinding, not activate
18:28:28 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/AccessModule/KeyMappingBinding
18:28:30 [jeanne]
Resolution: accept JR rewording
18:29:29 [jeanne]
Topic: keymapping GR rewrite
18:29:51 [oedipus]
<INS>If an element accepts multiple events that dispatch different actions, the user agent MUST provide a way for the user to discover the multiplicity, what actions are available, and how they are triggered.</INS>
18:31:28 [jeanne]
Needs to be discoverable. Add a phrase on the complexity of discovery. Example of Word 07:
18:31:48 [oedipus]
<INS>A conforming user agent MUST allow the user to override any binding that is part of the user agent default input configuration except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g., for access to help) or author-specified bindings. The keyboard combinations offered for rebinding include single key and key plus modifier keys if these are available in the operating environment, as specified in UAAG 1.0, Checkpoint 11.3</INS>
18:31:51 [jeanne]
....it is discoverable, but not usable. The multiplicity leads to a situation where nobody will do it.
18:32:04 [jeanne]
...can we put constraints on discoverability?
18:33:28 [jeanne]
The information on how to execute a task is exposed (event handlers)
18:33:55 [jeanne]
UAAG 1.0 11.3
18:34:13 [jeanne]
JA: the user needs to know how to activate it, but still doesn't know what will happen
18:35:28 [jeanne]
What actions are available and how they are triggered, and what events are available and how they are triggered?
18:35:56 [jeanne]
Opera has a mechanism that will tell all the keys and allow remapping.
18:36:50 [oedipus]
<INS>The author knows which action she thinks her users will want automated. The user, however may know which of the alternate actions he would prefer. Only the user knows if he wants to allow the events to fire as defined by the author, or whether he needs to inspect the object to determine which events to fire. Although the author can define multiple actions for a multi-action object, only one action per object will be displayed on the "accelerate" menu. This
18:37:27 [jeanne]
JA concern that we are giving more functionality to the keyboard user than the mouse user.
18:41:57 [jeanne]
These event handlers need an explanation, recommended a "purpose" attribute to XML2.
18:42:23 [jeanne]
XML events 2 needs more work to bolster what information will be avilable to the user agent and the technology
18:43:38 [jeanne]
some of this isn't really relevant to access.
18:44:30 [jeanne]
the activate will map to one thing, not the mouse up, or mouse down, etc.
18:45:02 [jeanne]
It won't be concerned with the mouse up and down, just with the one thing the event does.
18:45:44 [jeanne]
... the keyboard user doesn't really care about all the sequence of events, they just want to know the main event.
18:45:59 [jeanne]
...activate maps to that one main action.
18:46:28 [jeanne]
...simplifies the @activate. Material written can be repurpused to XML 2
18:47:17 [jeanne]
"we want the user agent to treat the activate as negative while it is being quieried.
18:47:50 [jeanne]
..."
18:49:35 [jeanne]
because @activate only reacts to a mouse click, does that mean that other events, like mouseover do not have accessibility notifications?
18:50:32 [jeanne]
with the mouseover, we want a whitelist. Like on hover over a submit, we want the mouseover to say "you have not completed fields x. y"
18:50:49 [jeanne]
... this comes from scripts, not from user agent.
18:52:56 [jeanne]
JB proposes we extend by 20 minutes for decent discussion.
18:53:16 [jeanne]
resolution: table rest of agenda to complete this issue.
18:54:23 [jeanne]
s/decent/thorough
18:55:18 [jeanne]
GR cut out the excursion into event handling and moved other back in.
18:55:40 [jeanne]
... "A conforming user agent" and cites UAAG checkpoints.
18:55:54 [jeanne]
...Added material that JR cut out of the other page.
18:59:39 [jeanne]
JR: take it from the top and we say what pieces we say we want to keep and have GR impose order on it.
18:59:58 [jeanne]
+1 from JA.
19:03:06 [jeanne]
del: It is also possible to have the target element activated through the use of the activate attribute.
19:03:19 [jeanne]
... it is already covered under @activate
19:04:32 [jeanne]
JA: the sentence on XMLEVENTS stays because it is the first mention of it. Agreed.
19:05:52 [jeanne]
JA: if @targetrole and @targetid are specified, but the author did not assign a key, the user agent should provide them.
19:06:12 [jeanne]
??The user agent should assign or the user assigns?
19:06:37 [jeanne]
These are the free keys you have available, pick one, then why not pick the top one on the list?
19:07:07 [oedipus]
The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute, are a suggestion of the author. User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding, disabling, or re-assigning keys. In such user agents, user-specified assignments MUST take precedence. <INS>A conforming user agent MUST allow the user to override any binding that is part of the user agent default input configuration except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g
19:09:58 [jeanne]
if no key attribute is specified, the user agent MUST provide a mechanism for the user assignment of a key.
19:10:44 [jeanne]
"s/If/When the user agent assigns a key..."
19:11:55 [jeanne]
JA: how will this work with mobile devices where there may not be a key. that may be why they are using "character"
19:12:07 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstraction.html#dt_Character
19:13:18 [jeanne]
if we are using a specific character set, use keys from that character set.
19:16:20 [jeanne]
reword "key plus modifier keys or to a single key" to "modifier key plus key..."
19:17:23 [jeanne]
just put "keybinding", not specify the modifier key plus key or other combinations
19:21:29 [jeanne]
conflict with the sentence on "User agents should render the value of an access key in such a way as to emphasize its role and to distinguish it from other characters (e.g., by underlining it)."
19:21:51 [oedipus]
xhtml2
19:21:57 [jeanne]
Action: JR will follow up with XHTML2
19:22:44 [Zakim]
-Cantor
19:22:57 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:24:30 [jeanne]
discussion on the displaying the value of the access key and how would the user agent display thevalue if it is remapped?
19:26:01 [jeanne]
The wording of "The character assigned to a key," is inherited from UAAG1.
19:27:20 [jeanne]
are we saying that any key can be remapped, or are there keys that cannot be used?
19:27:42 [jeanne]
The user agent won't allow the user to remap to those reserved keys anyway.
19:28:19 [jeanne]
Keys are available are a pool that are available to both users and authors.
19:28:57 [jeanne]
JA: We can't go there, because it causes cross-browser problems. the user agent decides what is avilable
19:29:24 [jeanne]
the user then uses what is available. Get rid of all the keys and modifier language.
19:30:39 [jeanne]
JR: We need to wrap up.
19:31:02 [jeanne]
JA will look for a space on Tuesday and put out a note to see who is available.
19:31:18 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
19:31:20 [Zakim]
-DeanHudson
19:31:34 [Jan]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:31:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-ua-minutes.html Jan
19:31:40 [Jan]
RRSAgent, set logs public
19:31:44 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:31:53 [Jan]
Zakim, bye
19:31:53 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, AllanJ, Jan, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, DeanHudson, Cantor
19:31:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:31:59 [Jan]
RRSAgent, bye
19:31:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-ua-actions.rdf :
19:31:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR will follow up with XHTML2 [1]
19:31:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-ua-irc#T19-21-57