14:57:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:57:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-bpwg-irc
14:57:31 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:57:31 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:32 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:57:32 <trackbot-ng> Date: 29 January 2008
14:58:07 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jan/0028.html
14:58:12 <francois> Chair: francois
14:58:35 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:58:38 <hgerlach> hi
14:59:22 <francois> Regrets: jo
15:00:52 <francois> zakim, code?
15:00:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
15:01:02 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has now started
15:01:09 <Zakim> + +7.899.7.aaaa
15:01:11 <Zakim> + +004921aabb
15:01:23 <Zakim> +francois
15:01:35 <Zakim> - +7.899.7.aaaa
15:01:53 <francois> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +004921aabb, francois
15:02:03 <Zakim> + +7.899.7.aacc
15:02:19 <Zakim> -francois
15:02:36 <AndrewS> Zarkim, aaaa is AndrewS
15:02:46 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
15:02:56 <rob> rob has joined #bpwg
15:03:00 <AndrewS> Zakim, aaaa is AndrewS
15:03:00 <Zakim> sorry, AndrewS, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:03:49 <AndrewS> Zakim, 7.899.7.aaaa is AndrewS
15:03:49 <Zakim> sorry, AndrewS, I do not recognize a party named '7.899.7.aaaa'
15:03:58 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
15:04:02 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:04:08 <hgerlach> Autsch 
15:04:13 <Zakim> +francois
15:04:24 <francois> zakim, who's on the call?
15:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see +004921aabb, +7.899.7.aacc, Bryan_Sullivan, francois
15:04:30 <hgerlach> the modem hurts
15:04:54 <hgerlach> no
15:05:20 <hgerlach> hi Andrew!
15:05:24 <francois> zakim, aabb is probably AndrewS
15:05:24 <Zakim> + +7.932.0.aadd
15:05:25 <Zakim> +AndrewS?; got it
15:05:52 <rob> zakim, aadd is rob
15:05:52 <Zakim> +rob; got it
15:06:28 <francois> zakim, who's on the call?
15:06:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndrewS?, +7.899.7.aacc, Bryan_Sullivan, francois, rob
15:06:39 <francois> zakim, who's making noise?
15:06:50 <Zakim> francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +7.899.7.aacc (10%), AndrewS? (5%), rob (46%)
15:07:09 <hgerlach> its me
15:07:17 <francois> zakim, aacc is probably Heiko
15:07:17 <Zakim> +Heiko?; got it
15:07:21 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:08:02 <Magnus> Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:08:05 <francois> zakim, who's making noise?
15:08:13 <Magnus> zakim, code?
15:08:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:08:16 <Zakim> francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Heiko? (13%)
15:08:27 <Zakim> +SeanP
15:08:56 <Zakim> +Magnus
15:09:14 <SeanP> I'll do it
15:09:28 <francois> Scribe: SeanP
15:09:34 <francois> ScribeNick: SeanP
15:09:42 <francois> Topic: New draft is here
15:09:45 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
15:10:07 <SeanP> Francois:  Any comments on the draft?
15:10:33 <francois> Close ACTION-628
15:10:33 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-628 Produce draft 1d by Friday closed
15:10:42 <francois> Topic: HTTP Cache-Control extensions
15:11:08 <hgerlach> heiko has to redail in
15:11:12 <Zakim> -AndrewS?
15:11:22 <francois> Yves Lafon
15:11:37 <SeanP> Francois: Talked with Yves Lafon of the W3c about Cache-Control
15:11:51 <SeanP> ... He has been involved with HTTP
15:12:12 <Zakim> +??P6
15:12:30 <SeanP> ...He said we should not recommend extensions to HTTP that would require all servers to change
15:13:00 <SeanP> ...He said we should not recommend any extesions to Cache-Control header
15:13:59 <SeanP> ...The CP either enables content transformation or doesn't with Cache-Control: no-transform
15:14:29 <SeanP> ...If we decide to do extensions to Cache-Control we need to write an IETF draft
15:14:41 <SeanP> ...There is an example
15:14:59 <francois> -> http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-stale-while-revalidate-00.txt Mark Nottingham example
15:15:27 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
15:15:27 <SeanP> Francois: This is the kind of thing we could write to propose extensions to Cache-Control
15:15:47 <SeanP> ...Will talk to Mark this week and come back with details next week.
15:15:59 <francois> s/to Mark/to Yves F2F
15:17:13 <SeanP> Francois: I think it is a good idea to do this--if we don't the document may not be as useful
15:17:41 <francois> Topic: CT-proxy and HTTP POST (part 3.2)
15:17:42 <SeanP> ...The most important part of the doc is CP to proxy communication.
15:18:55 <SeanP> Francois:  Jo mentioned that there was some discussion about HTTP POST
15:19:07 <SeanP> Magnus: Is beyond our scope.
15:19:35 <SeanP> ...An example would be a picture from the phone uploaded to the server.
15:19:54 <SeanP> ...The proxy could transform the photo if it was weird format.
15:20:39 <SeanP> Francois: Is there any case where CT proxy should not do anything with a post?
15:20:51 <Bryan> q+
15:21:01 <francois> ack bryan
15:21:01 <SeanP> Magnus: We could come up with examples but they are too esoteric.
15:21:36 <SeanP> Bryan: This represents value added services that are beyond what we should say something about.
15:22:15 <SeanP> Francois: Jo removed that part about POST from the draft.
15:22:19 <francois> Topic: Detection of non-browser environment
15:23:23 <SeanP> Bryan: Have comments on this.  The user agent should be the primary way to detect non-browser unless there is secondary info.
15:23:57 <francois> zakim, mute SeanP
15:23:57 <Zakim> SeanP should now be muted
15:23:57 <SeanP> ... Jo said something about using heuristics, etc. for detecting non-browser environment.
15:24:56 <SeanP> Heiko:  That comment was quite useful.
15:25:03 <Bryan> Jo proposed "the proxy SHOULD make "reasonable efforts" to determine whether a user agent is a browser, using heuristics applied to an a priori knowledge base"
15:25:25 <SeanP> ...We are not able to always understand the UA from the UA string because there is no standardization
15:25:58 <SeanP> Bryan: AT&T has been able to get useful information from UA.
15:26:16 <SeanP> ..We do see just "Mozilla" sometime however.
15:27:24 <francois> ACTION: bryan to propose some recommendation on user-agent detection from a proxy and browser's (format) point of view
15:27:24 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-632 - Propose some recommendation on user-agent detection from a proxy and browser's (format) point of view [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-02-05].
15:27:55 <francois> Close ACTION-626
15:27:55 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-626 Contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent closed
15:28:08 <francois> Topic: Summary of proposed features (part 3.7)
15:28:30 <SeanP> Francois: This was added by Jo in the current draft.
15:28:53 <SeanP> ...Summarize the extensions for Cache-control and other extensions
15:29:12 <francois> zakim, who's making noise?
15:29:23 <Zakim> francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P6 (14%), rob (23%)
15:29:42 <francois> zakim, mute rob
15:29:42 <Zakim> rob should now be muted
15:30:26 <SeanP> Francois: Want to talk about https rewrite.
15:31:19 <SeanP> Bryan: I said that rewrite of https URLs doesn't work.
15:31:37 <SeanP> ...Rewriting all links on an HTTPS page may have some uses.
15:32:14 <SeanP> Francois: Could be dangerous to rewrite HTTPS URLs.
15:33:24 <SeanP> Bryan: Example: CT Proxy could recreate the "WAP GAP"
15:33:37 <AndrewS> q+
15:33:58 <SeanP> ...Connection between Browser and proxy is secure.
15:34:34 <SeanP> Andrew: We should put in the guidelines that if the proxy intercepts HTTPS, the user should be notified and prompted.
15:34:37 <francois> ack AndrewS
15:35:17 <SeanP> Bryan: Needs to be clarified that if the user refuses to allow proxy to intercept HTTPS, it may not work.
15:36:06 <SeanP> Andrew: User should be given the option, and then it should work end-to-end; i.e., not through proxy.
15:36:22 <SeanP> Bryan: In this case the page is not formatted for the phone.
15:36:35 <SeanP> Andrew: Correct, but user should have the option.
15:36:49 <SeanP> Francois: Is this feasable for users?
15:37:03 <Bryan> q+
15:37:33 <francois> ack bryan
15:37:34 <SeanP> Andrew:  Most users don't know much about this, but it is good to give option.  It is what VF UK is doing.
15:38:10 <SeanP> Bryan: Make sure this is very clear in "terms and conditions."  Don't make the user answer too many questions.
15:38:35 <SeanP> ...Could make these kinds of decisions available through a desktop browser link.
15:39:28 <SeanP> Francois: Summary: Should make it clear in the document that proxy should ask the user about HTTPS.
15:39:59 <SeanP> Andrew: If not proxy could create man-in-the-middle attack.
15:40:10 <SeanP> Bryan: This preference should be remembered.
15:40:58 <francois> ACTION: Andrew to write a clear draft on @@allow-https-rewrite and the need for the end-user to be aware of the situation
15:40:58 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-633 - Write a clear draft on @@allow-https-rewrite and the need for the end-user to be aware of the situation [on Andrew Swainston - due 2008-02-05].
15:41:37 <SeanP> Topic: CT-proxy-aware
15:41:55 <SeanP> Francois:  How could the browser say it was CT-proxy-aware?
15:42:18 <Bryan> q+
15:42:32 <SeanP> Heiko: Most browsers that need CT-proxy are old browsers that are not CT-aware.
15:43:28 <SeanP> Francois: Say we did have a browser that CT-aware.  How would we tell the proxy this?
15:43:44 <francois> In the absence any of the previous directives elaborating the no-transform directive, the client should indicate that it understands the conventions of this document by including a [@@ct-proxy-aware directive].
15:43:59 <SeanP> Heiko:  Why?  Should only do transformation for low-end browsers.
15:45:27 <SeanP> Francois: The document currently talks about CT-aware browsers.
15:45:43 <francois> ack bryan
15:46:05 <SeanP> Bryan: The most common case right now is legacy browsers.
15:46:38 <SeanP> ...If we have control commands for CT, then the browser needs to know that the browser is CT-aware.
15:46:52 <SeanP> ...Could use DDR to know if a browser is CT-aware.
15:47:14 <SeanP> ...Need an attribute in DDR that specifies CT-aware.
15:47:56 <SeanP> Value of CT-awareness: Browser can control CT without user interaction.
15:48:29 <SeanP> Heiko: We are talking about a config string sent from browser to proxy
15:49:09 <SeanP> Bryan: Think that DDR would be best for handling CT-aware to reduce network overhead of sending a header each time.
15:50:14 <SeanP> Francois: Lots of content in the document that talks about interaction between CT  proxy and browser.
15:50:41 <SeanP> Heiko:  Don't think we need this.  90% of value of CT proxy is for legacy browsers.
15:51:40 <SeanP> Francois: Question: Will any CT-aware browsers ever be implemented?
15:52:06 <SeanP> ...Is this something browser makers are even interested in doing?
15:52:15 <Bryan> q+
15:52:20 <francois> ack bryan
15:52:49 <SeanP> Bryan: As browsers become more capable, the need for CT services will diminish.
15:53:31 <SeanP> ...Less transformation will be done on the network and more on the device.
15:53:52 <SeanP> ...Don't see that CT-awareness will be high priority for browser makers.
15:55:21 <Bryan> q+
15:55:33 <SeanP> Heiko:  Low tier browsers are not high priority for phone makers.
15:56:20 <francois> ack bryan
15:56:21 <SeanP> Heiko: For the future, optimation and acceleration will be the main use of CT proxies
15:57:29 <SeanP> Bryan: The are hundreds of millions of devices out there and the turnover is such that CT proxies could be needed for 5 years or so.
15:58:18 <SeanP> Topic: reload-untransformed directive
15:58:40 <SeanP> Francois: Jo mentioned that there could be some problems.
15:59:36 <SeanP> ...Directive is between CT-aware browser and proxy.
16:00:09 <SeanP> ...Not sure what the priority is.
16:00:54 <SeanPatterson> SeanPatterson has joined #bpwg
16:01:46 <SeanPatterson> scribe: SeanPatterson
16:01:55 <SeanPatterson> scribenick: SeanPatterson
16:02:35 <AndrewS> q+
16:02:41 <francois> ack andre
16:03:25 <SeanPatterson> Andrew:  Expect to see legacy devices used for several years.
16:03:31 <hgerlach> just a short questio: how to register for the speaker queue???
16:03:32 <francois> @@@
16:04:00 <francois> ACTION: daoust to write a note to say something about Cache-Control: no-transform and WAP gateways
16:04:00 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-634 - Write a note to say something about Cache-Control: no-transform and WAP gateways [on François Daoust - due 2008-02-05].
16:04:16 <hgerlach> great, thanks!
16:04:29 <Zakim> -??P6
16:04:30 <Zakim> -Magnus
16:04:32 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
16:04:34 <Zakim> -francois
16:04:35 <Zakim> -rob
16:04:38 <Zakim> -SeanP
16:04:41 <francois> zakim, list attendees
16:04:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +7.899.7.aaaa, +004921aabb, francois, +7.899.7.aacc, Bryan_Sullivan, +7.932.0.aadd, AndrewS?, rob, Heiko?, SeanP, Magnus
16:05:16 <Zakim> -Heiko?
16:05:19 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended
16:05:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +7.899.7.aaaa, +004921aabb, francois, +7.899.7.aacc, Bryan_Sullivan, +7.932.0.aadd, AndrewS?, rob, Heiko?, SeanP, Magnus
16:07:01 <francois> s/@@@/francois: One last thing about the impossible conciliation of the Cache-Control: no-transform directive and the WAP gateways. Should we drop a note stating that these guidelines won't work in that case?
16:07:33 <francois> i/ACTION: daoust/Andrew: yes, I think that's a good idea
16:07:45 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:07:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:08:06 <rob> rob has left #bpwg
16:12:03 <jo> jo has left #bpwg
18:24:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg
18:30:29 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg