IRC log of hcls on 2008-01-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #hcls
15:58:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-hcls-irc
15:58:30 [Vipul]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
15:59:02 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
15:59:04 [Zakim]
the conference code is hidden, LeeF
15:59:14 [LeeF]
zakim, you sly robot you
15:59:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you sly robot you', LeeF
15:59:16 [Vipul]
Zakim, this is BIONT
15:59:16 [Zakim]
Vipul, I see SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be BIONT".
15:59:20 [Helen]
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15:59:28 [Vipul]
Zakim, this will be BIONT
15:59:28 [Zakim]
ok, Vipul; I see SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:34 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
15:59:37 [Zakim]
the conference code is 24668 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), LeeF
15:59:41 [LeeF]
thanks, zakim
15:59:46 [Zakim]
SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM has now started
15:59:54 [Zakim]
+Tony
16:00:03 [JyotiPathak]
JyotiPathak has joined #hcls
16:00:16 [Zakim]
+LeeF
16:00:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.416.aaaa
16:00:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.519.746.aabb
16:00:43 [LeeF]
zakim, mute me please
16:00:43 [Zakim]
LeeF should now be muted
16:00:56 [Zakim]
+Susie
16:00:57 [Vipul]
Zakim, aabb is Helen_Chen
16:00:57 [Zakim]
+Helen_Chen; got it
16:01:01 [Zakim]
+Bo.Anderssen
16:01:08 [Vipul]
Zakim, aaaa is Vipul
16:01:08 [Zakim]
+Vipul; got it
16:01:35 [Vipul]
Zakim, who's here?
16:01:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tony, LeeF (muted), Vipul, Helen_Chen, Susie, Bo.Anderssen
16:01:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JyotiPathak, Helen, RRSAgent, Vipul, LeeF, mscottm, dbooth, jar286, ericP, Zakim
16:02:09 [Zakim]
+Jennifer
16:02:29 [Zakim]
+??P12
16:03:06 [Vipul]
Zakim, +??P12 is Parsa
16:03:10 [Susie]
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16:03:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.813.484.aacc
16:03:25 [Zakim]
sorry, Vipul, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'
16:03:27 [Zakim]
+TomL
16:03:45 [Vipul]
Zakim, aacc is RachelRichesson
16:03:52 [Zakim]
+RachelRichesson; got it
16:04:49 [LeeF]
zakim, P12 is Parsa
16:04:50 [Zakim]
sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'P12'
16:04:55 [LeeF]
zakim, ??P12 is Parsa
16:04:55 [Zakim]
+Parsa; got it
16:04:59 [Parsa]
Parsa has joined #hcls
16:05:10 [Tom]
Tom has joined #hcls
16:06:01 [Vipul]
Zakim, who's here?
16:06:10 [fostel]
fostel has joined #hcls
16:06:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tony, LeeF (muted), Vipul, Helen_Chen, Susie, Bo.Anderssen, Jennifer, Parsa, RachelRichesson, TomL
16:06:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fostel, Tom, Parsa, Susie, JyotiPathak, Helen, RRSAgent, Vipul, LeeF, mscottm, dbooth, jar286, ericP, Zakim
16:06:38 [fostel]
hello!
16:07:15 [Vipul]
Welcome jennier
16:07:31 [Vipul]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:07:33 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jennifer
16:08:26 [LeeF]
Scribe: Jennifer
16:08:32 [Vipul]
EricP can you come on Zakim
16:08:48 [Vipul]
Agenda:
16:09:02 [Vipul]
1. Roll Call
16:09:21 [Vipul]
2. Admin Issues: Set up mailing List
16:09:43 [fostel]
who will do this?
16:09:44 [Vipul]
EricP, please come on line?
16:10:02 [fostel]
Eric will set up mailing list for COI task force, but he is not on the call
16:10:15 [fostel]
outpatient data
16:10:23 [LeeF]
ScribeNick: fostel
16:10:36 [Vipul]
3. Mock Patient Data for Diabetes and Hypertension
16:11:06 [Vipul]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/MockedUpPatientData)
16:11:28 [fostel]
vipul: good meting with endocrinologist;
16:11:44 [fostel]
vipul: should have mock data soon
16:12:04 [fostel]
Parsa: format of data? out / in patient?
16:12:15 [fostel]
Parsa: historic data?
16:13:03 [fostel]
vipul: example of each in and outpt; data items in example;
16:13:27 [fostel]
vipul: example protocols from clinicaltrials.gov
16:13:35 [fostel]
narrative or structured?
16:13:58 [fostel]
vipul -- format should not be an issue
16:14:30 [fostel]
parsa -- searched reports for outpt data + history + contextual data; have several cases in narrative form; will upload
16:15:19 [fostel]
parsa -- not of the data reports have all of the elements listed by vipul; need a handful of pts showing different data elements
16:16:11 [fostel]
parsa: discussion with UTx clinic; collect outpt data; willing to share whole data set, lab reports in a few days. 2K pts data; need to strip out IDs
16:16:36 [fostel]
vipul: sample of pts from this database
16:17:03 [fostel]
parsa: focus on diabetes nad hypertension; use remaining to test our format / model
16:17:36 [fostel]
next agenda: Jyoti clarification
16:18:06 [fostel]
Joyti - plannignmeeting with div epidemiology planned for early Feb; will try to obtain data
16:18:52 [fostel]
action item - jyoti report back after this meeting
16:18:58 [Vipul]
ACTION: Jyoti to report back after 1st Feb
16:19:24 [fostel]
vipul Peter...?
16:19:33 [Vipul]
Peter Elkin
16:19:47 [fostel]
joyti: peter Elkin not aware / not interested
16:20:39 [fostel]
jyoti: harold in not in the loop at this point; need to involve him; will discuss this week; send e-mail to vipul
16:21:10 [fostel]
vipul: tom still working on data; set up a meeting
16:21:43 [fostel]
vipul: useful to get data from different sources to stress the system
16:22:04 [LeeF]
+4s/joyti/jyoti
16:22:14 [fostel]
rachel: no access to data; provide dummy data?
16:22:30 [fostel]
sorry about typos!
16:23:04 [fostel]
vipul: progress on dummy pt data; data requirements ... George?
16:23:25 [fostel]
vipul: George will come up with data requirements for hypertensive study
16:24:31 [fostel]
vipul: minimum dataset for clinical study; particular data items must be included
16:24:42 [fostel]
fostel: we should check CONSORT for minimum data
16:25:38 [fostel]
fostel: http://www.consort-statement.org/
16:25:59 [fostel]
rachel?: not aware of minimal data in research trials
16:26:11 [fostel]
fostel: argee with rachel re minimal reqs
16:27:26 [fostel]
vipul: data from free research protocols; distributed to data people; will upload the spreadsheet soon
16:27:54 [fostel]
vipul: work on mapping
16:28:15 [fostel]
vipul: will identify key data items from the spreadsheet;
16:29:00 [fostel]
vipul: aim to look at data requirements eg pt age; HL7 RIM - how is pt age modeled
16:29:22 [fostel]
vipul: role = pt; attribute = birth time; data type = time stamp
16:29:26 [Parsa]
URL for CONSORT: http://www.consort-statement.org/
16:29:51 [fostel]
vipul; yesterday distributed spreadsheet; tom-- how will DCM elements be found?
16:30:22 [fostel]
vipul: gender example -- HL7 has code; RIM has well defined domains
16:30:54 [fostel]
vipul: RIM has terminology, eg male / female; also can bind user own data terms
16:31:20 [fostel]
vipul: blood pressure -- observation; obs type = physical exam for instance
16:31:44 [fostel]
vipul: RIM obs.code and obs value; code = obs type; this is what Tom was referring to
16:32:23 [fostel]
vipul: obs value domain bind to ICD9, or bind to SNOMED; HL7-RIM is agnostic to vocab, can bind ot any set of terms
16:32:48 [fostel]
who?: in NL can use terminology, JP can use another teminology
16:33:34 [fostel]
vipul: drug = zenical; HL7-RIM would need route, dosage, frequency, time of delivery
16:33:49 [fostel]
vipul: we need to model time
16:34:00 [fostel]
fostel: time is a critical thing to model, indeed!
16:34:34 [fostel]
vipul: model needs to be general; pt recruitment, trial, etc. not hard code it based on one use case
16:35:59 [fostel]
Tom: some folks may store these data, eg administration of drug, in which case route, frequency, etc would be stored
16:36:43 [fostel]
Tom: :pt is taking fentinyl" is a different case; eg pt is taking the drug but we do not have administration details
16:37:28 [fostel]
tom: if the derived data are frequently-queried, then store them; they always store granular administration data
16:38:29 [fostel]
parsa: direct and indirect evidence -- pts may have assertion that he has fever (in vital signs) or may have medication for fever in chart
16:39:01 [fostel]
parsa: model depends on goal; physician note/diagnosis regarding disease, med, symptom; or is it sufficient to infer this from other evidence?
16:40:01 [fostel]
vipul: example - document posted on wiki -
16:40:36 [fostel]
parsa: self-reported fever; family-reported fevel; practitioner-reported fever; objeective fever (based on measurement)
16:41:09 [fostel]
vipul: we are thinking of modeling the first three as inference
16:41:49 [fostel]
vipul: these will be identified suring mapping across systems
16:41:56 [fostel]
vipul: assessment not inference
16:43:12 [fostel]
vipul: example, protocol 8, criteria 16: uncontrolled hypertension has value greater than N; in ER would only have the raw values, reasoner would need to be able to infer diagnosis
16:44:16 [fostel]
vipul: will distribute the spreadsheet; can we fill out DCM elements?
16:44:59 [fostel]
vipul: any standard; not just DCM
16:45:22 [fostel]
vipul: action item for tom -- DCM values for these rows
16:46:08 [fostel]
vipul: HL7 has std way to go to vocab; will we use this method or another?
16:46:37 [fostel]
tom: they have internal vocab; may be mappable to LOINC, etc, but they bind their model to their terms
16:46:38 [Vipul]
ACTION: Tom Oniki to come up with DCM elements for the list of HL7/RIM elements
16:46:55 [fostel]
parsa: std way to map?
16:47:49 [fostel]
vipul: next agenda: clarification to some folks; will send further
16:48:22 [fostel]
vipul: scope of project; something accomplished within 6 to 9 months, but not too narrow a scope
16:48:53 [fostel]
vipul: good prospects - Deni (institution in Ireland?) has identified a student to help with the tasks
16:49:22 [fostel]
vipul: lee (online but muted) cambridge informatics, implementation of mapping model
16:49:38 [fostel]
vipul: need to answer questions raised before mapping
16:49:41 [LeeF]
Cambridge Semantics, actually :)
16:49:52 [fostel]
thaks, lee!
16:50:26 [fostel]
vipul: much work in mapping to be done; RIM to use case
16:51:28 [Vipul]
ACTION: Vipul to send out the brainstorming slides to the rest of the group
16:51:34 [fostel]
who? fine grained details about contents of fields; this is useful in order to line up groups to handle the tasks
16:52:10 [fostel]
vipul: high level functional specs; details (RDF, Owl, ..) up to implementer
16:52:19 [fostel]
who = Parsa
16:52:57 [fostel]
parsa: is there a sematic representation of HL7RIM that we can use as basis of mapping or do we have to create one?
16:53:13 [fostel]
parsa: every narrative has to be converted ton RDF/OWL representation
16:54:01 [fostel]
vipul: no single structure now; we are not making one; we want to make a representation that will be useful to other use cases
16:54:21 [LeeF]
suggestion: model the RIM to the extent we have instance data for it for the use case
16:54:24 [fostel]
parsa: yes, we are not modeling entier RIM; but part that is useful to our use case still needs to bemapped
16:54:29 [LeeF]
(ah, I guess that's what Parsa just suggested also :-)
16:54:36 [fostel]
vipul: we are sending the specs around
16:55:33 [JyotiPathak]
Apologies -- I am signing out; need to run for another meeting.
16:55:40 [fostel]
who: RIM Is Obj Oriented; they have UML; we need to translate this to class hierarchy in automated way
16:56:07 [fostel]
who?: propose RIM-OWL demonstration;
16:56:41 [JyotiPathak]
JyotiPathak has left #hcls
16:56:44 [fostel]
who? look at data description not RIM model; RIM is high level
16:56:46 [LeeF]
who = Helen, I think
16:57:06 [fostel]
vipul: look at sematic binding
16:57:16 [fostel]
helen: then go to CDA
16:57:32 [Zakim]
-Tony
16:57:46 [fostel]
helen: RIM doesn't lend much to semantics
16:58:24 [fostel]
tom: RIM is high level; not as up to date as Dan as how they do constraints
16:58:38 [fostel]
tom: constrain HML representation of document
16:58:47 [Zakim]
-Susie
16:59:14 [fostel]
vipul: look at CDA into more detail
16:59:29 [fostel]
susie (aka helan): translate directly into RDF from CDA
16:59:39 [fostel]
keep us all inthe loop!
17:00:18 [fostel]
vipul: work with Dan on HL7 descriptions, Tom RIM, Helen CDA
17:01:08 [fostel]
action: email spreadsheet
17:01:11 [Vipul]
ACTION: Helen Chen to investigtat the CDA
17:01:38 [fostel]
updates?
17:01:50 [Zakim]
-TomL
17:01:50 [fostel]
vipul: see you next week!
17:01:51 [Zakim]
-RachelRichesson
17:01:52 [Zakim]
-Bo.Anderssen
17:01:59 [Zakim]
-Helen_Chen
17:02:06 [Zakim]
-LeeF
17:02:09 [Zakim]
-Vipul
17:02:10 [fostel]
fostel: bye!
17:02:11 [Zakim]
-Parsa
17:02:12 [Zakim]
-Jennifer
17:02:14 [Zakim]
SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM has ended
17:02:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tony, LeeF, +1.781.416.aaaa, +1.519.746.aabb, Susie, Helen_Chen, Bo.Anderssen, Vipul, Jennifer, +1.813.484.aacc, TomL, RachelRichesson, Parsa
17:02:16 [Vipul]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-hcls-minutes.html Vipul
17:02:26 [Vipul]
Thanks Jennifer!
18:01:18 [LeeF_]
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