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18:30:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc
18:31:00 rrsagent, make log public
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18:34:21 Scribe: Steven
18:35:00 Meeting: FtF XHTML2 WG, Cambridge, MA, USA
18:35:07 Chair: Roland
18:35:32 Present: Steven, Rich, Roland, Raman
18:35:48 Topic: Agenda
18:35:56 rrsagent, pointer?
18:35:56 See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T18-35-56
18:36:04 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T18-35-56
18:36:14 rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
18:37:48 Roland_ has joined #xhtml
18:38:05 Tina has joined #xhtml
18:39:18 Good [insert suitable time of day here], everyone.
18:39:25 Present+Tina
18:39:28 Hi there Tina
18:39:34 We are just starting
18:39:42 Agenda topics:
18:39:47 * Strategy
18:39:52 * Meetings
18:39:55 * Documents
18:43:27 raman has joined #xhtml
18:46:04 Topic: Strategy
18:47:54 Roland: The group is called XHTML2, and our primary delivery is XHTML2
18:48:00 ... what are we trying to achieve?
18:48:14 ... I want to suggest we focus on authoring, and not rendering
18:48:30 ... and look at a pipeline from authoring to rendering on lots of devices
18:48:48 ... with personalization, device independence
18:48:51 ... etc
18:49:05 ... being applied from the authored materials to the user experience
18:50:37 Steven: Now that we have the split and the chartering behind us, it gives us the opportunity now to focus on the h\igher-level stuff
18:50:48 ... and HTML can still remain the assembly language of the web
18:50:57 ... and we don't have to worry about it
18:51:07 Raman: Like we did with XForms
18:51:25 Roland: We don't need to think of the page as the unit of a document either
18:51:31 ... with mashup iedas in mind
18:52:05 s/iedas/ideas/
18:53:31 I believe we should focus on creating a language with which structure and semantic interpretation can be encoded - rendering ought be a non-topic in achieving this goal.
18:53:36 Raman: I would like to avoid SOAP and WSDL if possible in the solution space
18:53:53 I agree Tina
18:54:10 Raman: So let us focus on authoring, delivering clean stuff
18:54:50 Roland: If we consider our world supporting mashup styles, whatever our unit of work is, we can consider the broader ecosystem such as security
18:55:41 Roland: It allows us to focus on *intent*, and therefore we can ditch h1-h6 for example, and just use the context
18:56:10 ... and remove some of the clutter that is still in the XHTML2 spec for historical reasons
18:56:25 Steven: Sounds excellent
18:56:35 Roland: But we are still talking about compound documents
18:56:45 ... if we need mathml, svg, it is still composable
18:57:25 ... and one other thing, I would like us to try and deal with the namespace ugliness
18:57:56 Raman: Given that XML Schema doesn't define the root element, we could actually define some new root elements
18:58:11 ... such as
18:58:21 ... we can avoid XML Schema
18:58:28 ... we can alias names where needed
18:58:42 ... to make authoring easier
18:59:00 ROland: THis is a distinct subject in its own right
18:59:06 s/RO/Ro/
18:59:11 s/TH/Th/
18:59:35 Raman: We need to protect the author from the ugliness
19:00:13 Rich: I was talking with Dave Raggett about components
19:00:24 Roland: We need to talk about levels of abstraction
19:02:00 Steven: I think we need to consider XBL at some level as part of the infrastructure for XHTML2
19:02:07 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
19:02:34 Welcome Shane
19:02:38 Present+Shane
19:02:54 skype available if you want SHane
19:02:59 rrsagent, pointer?
19:02:59 See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T19-02-59
19:03:17 ok
19:04:04 Raman: If we do the authoring layer cleaner, then we can later use XBLn to implement
19:05:19 Rich: Can you still render to the web?
19:05:43 Steven: Yes, in fact ebay.co.uk are already soing this. There are at least two companies using XHTML2 to adapt to devices
19:07:00 Rich: And can we add time?
19:08:42 Steven: I went to a meeting with SYMM this week, and they demo'd a page with XForms and SMIL working together with the Forms driving the SMIL presentation
19:08:51 ... that's the advantage of the W3C architecture
19:09:18 ... SYMM are the domain experts in time, and we can use thier stuff with ours
19:09:29 Rich: THis makes our stuff much more useful
19:09:37 ... because it makes it much easier to write to
19:09:41 s/TH?Th/
19:10:07 s/TH/Th/
19:11:27 Steven: Mark Birbeck has recently been suggesting making an XHTML version of XBL, with xhtml as the container
19:11:36 Raman: Then we could use XPath selectors
19:11:51 Steven: Which fits better into our architecture, since we use XPath already
19:17:13 Roland: So we are going to get over our bipolar disorder
19:17:48 Steven: Well we have been trying to make everyone happy in a bimodal world
19:17:59 ... and you end up making everyone unhappy
19:18:16 ... now we can concentrate on being clean
19:18:47 Roland: We need a technical strategy, but also a communication strategy
19:19:40 Rich: Change naming?
19:19:45 ROland: Maybe in time
19:19:49 s/RO/Ro/
19:20:36 Rich: We need to talk to companies to ask what they need
19:20:53 Raman: We must avoid making it too big
19:21:09 ... talk 1-1 with them is fine though
19:21:41 are there people who think that the current XHTML 2 strategy is NOT sufficient? XForms + RDFa + cleaner, more consistent markup?
19:22:09 as far as I am concerned, XHTML 2 in its current form is ready to go.
19:22:28 I think we can publish
19:22:39 We must also be careful regarding talking to companies. Listening to their ideas, certainly, but not to include willy-nilly whatever they might desire.
19:22:43 but we are discussing cleaning it up even more than it is
19:22:54 +1 on that Tina
19:22:56 okay. I ahve no problem with that.
19:23:11 sorry I missed the earlier discussion. my week is pretty messed up
19:23:26 We are going to talk about publishing strategies later
19:24:30 Will we include name-concepts in that discussion? It really is needed.
19:24:41 Rich: Why did EBay go with this?
19:24:49 Roland: SIngle authoring
19:24:54 s/SI/Si/
19:25:39 Steven: Time magazine use XHTML2 as well for similar reasons
19:26:04 ... they have one central format that they can extract the information from to deliver in as many other forms as they like
19:28:20 Raman: Let's take some use cases, and look to see if anyone thought we needed to add anything, but also what we can now safely take out
19:28:46 Rich: There is also Dita
19:28:48 lots of people have asked for hr back
19:28:53 Roland: A publishing format
19:29:01 and br, fwiw.
19:29:40 Name concepts Tina?
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19:32:19 Roland: There are two directions, more redical, and less radical.
19:32:45 ... The less radical is XHTML 1,2, which is the combination of what we have now,
19:32:52 ... allowing XForms in 1.1 for instance
19:32:59 ... rdfa, role etc
19:33:10 s/redical/radical
19:33:46 Rich: I'd like to show these slides on Dita (which is being standardised by OASIS)
19:33:58 [no URL I'm afraid, sorry people off line]
19:34:05 http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=dita
19:34:31 Rich: They have topic maps in the language
19:35:16 Raman: We need to keep our focus sharp, so we shouldn't add topic maps, but let people import them if they want
19:36:13 Steven: But looking at this slide, I see something that you can do with RDFa
19:36:20 Topics:
19:36:20 My topic And so on
19:36:20 Maps:
19:36:20
19:36:20 Specialization to create new types of topics and maps:
19:36:21 ?
19:36:23