IRC log of tagmem on 2007-08-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:56:12 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-tagmem-irc

16:56:23 [Stuart]

zakim, this will be tag

16:56:23 [Zakim]

ok, Stuart; I see TAG_()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

16:56:45 [Stuart]

Meeting: TAG Weekly

16:56:52 [Stuart]

Chair: Stuart

16:57:22 [Zakim]

TAG_()1:00PM has now started

16:57:29 [Zakim]

+??P3

16:57:38 [Stuart]

zakim, ?? is me

16:57:38 [Zakim]

+Stuart; got it

16:58:32 [Zakim]

+ +019628aaaa

16:58:59 [Rhys]

zakim, aaaa is Rhys

16:58:59 [Zakim]

+Rhys; got it

16:59:51 [Noah]

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16:59:58 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

17:00:13 [Zakim]

+Norm

17:00:16 [Noah]

zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me

17:00:16 [Zakim]

+Noah; got it

17:04:31 [Zakim]

+TimBL

17:05:19 [Noah]

scribenick Noah

17:05:23 [Noah]

scribe: Noah Mendelsohn

17:05:34 [Noah]

Meeting: W3C TAG Teleconference of 30 August 2007

17:05:41 [Noah]

date: 30 August 2007

17:05:43 [timbl_]

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17:05:48 [Noah]

chair: Stuart Williams

17:06:22 [Noah]

agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/08/30-agenda

17:06:55 [Zakim]

+Raman

17:07:03 [Noah]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Aug/0097.html

17:07:14 [Noah]

****SCRIBE NOTE TO SELF: delete first agenda link above*****

17:07:50 [raman]

Scribe: Raman

17:07:51 [Noah]

scribenick: raman

17:08:03 [Noah]

scribe: T.V. Raman

17:08:41 [raman]

Skipping URN Registries -- No HST

17:09:12 [raman]

Password in the clear: Stuart has sent message to chairs asking if other WGs would like to meet with the TAG

17:10:34 [raman]

ACTION: SWilliams: Respond to MEZ to arrange a joint meeting with TAG and Security WG

17:10:34 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - SWilliams:

17:11:36 [raman]

ACTION: STUART Send MEZ email asking for a joint meeting with the Security WGduring the Plenary

17:11:36 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-40 - Send MEZ email asking for a joint meeting with the Security WGduring the Plenary [on Stuart Williams - due 2007-09-06].

17:12:38 [Zakim]

+Dave_Orchard

17:12:38 [raman]

Resolved: TAG calls will be at this time Thursday 10:00 PT13:00 ET going forward.

17:16:04 [raman]

F2F Logistics -- Organizers need Mac Address

17:23:59 [Stuart]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda

17:24:58 [Stuart]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2007Aug/0038

17:25:14 [timbl_]

Maybe a session after dark

17:25:20 [timbl_]

Sail - meet - eat

17:26:24 [timbl_]

Ah ...

17:27:21 [timbl_]

:)

17:27:54 [Zakim]

-Noah

17:28:13 [timbl_]

meet - drink - sail - meet - eat

17:28:14 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

17:29:21 [raman]

Done with F2F Agenda for now

17:29:27 [raman]

TAG Blog

17:29:54 [raman]

Question for TimBL:Can we use http://www.w3.org/tag/blog as the uri of our blog

17:30:04 [timbl_]

Yes we may

17:30:15 [raman]

TimBL:Yes we may

17:31:50 [timbl_]

2001/tag

17:36:41 [timbl_]

blog.w3.org

17:36:49 [timbl_]

blog.w3.org/tag

17:37:24 [raman]

blog://tag

17:37:25 [Stuart]

www.tag/blog/tag

17:37:42 [timbl_]

tagBlog

17:39:00 [Noah]

Even if we decide on www.w3.org/tag/blog, we could still have www.w3.org/blogs give a page that gives links to lots of group's blogs

17:39:05 [raman]

ACTION: TimBL to investigate getting http://blog.w3.org/tag

17:39:05 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-41 - Investigate getting http://blog.w3.org/tag [on Tim Berners-Lee - due 2007-09-06].

17:39:13 [Noah]

s/give a page/be a page/

17:39:44 [raman]

Item 8 Norm to announce new issue "Scalability of URIs" 58

17:40:43 [timbl_]

http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS

17:41:03 [timbl_]

http://www.w3.org/blog/BPWG

17:41:18 [timbl_]

http://www.w3.org/blog/

17:41:30 [timbl_]

I think http://www.w3.org/blog/TAG seems to the logical one

17:41:35 [raman]

Norm would like some time next week or at the F2F

17:42:45 [Norm]

There seem to be two aspects to the discussion that followed the announcement: some related to retreival and urnsRegistries; the other about authoratative representations (RDF you have from somewhere vs. the representation you get through GET.

17:44:24 [raman]

for the record, http://w3tag.blogspot.com is available.

17:45:35 [raman]

TAGSoup Integration

17:46:13 [Noah]

Sam Ruby's article is at: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/08/02/HTML5-and-Distributed-Extensibility

17:46:47 [Stuart]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Aug/0043

17:46:58 [Noah]

It's really too bad that Dan isn't here for this discussion, suggest we discuss some now, then revisit when he's available.

17:47:51 [Noah]

TVR: I'd be happy for Dave to send his note on behalf of the TAG

17:48:18 [raman]

Stuart: wait for Dan

17:49:16 [raman]

ACTION: Stuart to check with Dan

17:49:17 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-42 - Check with Dan [on Stuart Williams - due 2007-09-06].

17:52:24 [raman]

Item 10: HTTP Redirections

17:54:26 [Zakim]

-Dave_Orchard

17:55:39 [raman]

TimBL: simple confusion: non-informational resource used to mean "thing"

17:56:33 [Noah]

We should remember that we do have a definition of information resource in AWWW

17:57:07 [Noah]

From AWWW:

17:57:09 [Noah]

"By design a URI identifies one resource. We do not limit the scope of what might be a resource. The term "resource" is used in a general sense for whatever might be identified by a URI. It is conventional on the hypertext Web to describe Web pages, images, product catalogs, etc. as “resources”.

17:57:17 [Noah]

The distinguishing characteristic of these resources is that all of their essential characteristics can be conveyed in a message. We identify this set as “information resources.”

17:58:52 [raman]

stuart: there are entities that fit the definition of "information resource" that are not web accessible

18:01:10 [timbl_]

There is no reason that somethinbg being an IR means it must be on hte web.

18:01:54 [timbl_]

q+

18:02:04 [Stuart]

ack t

18:02:15 [raman]

Noah: single resource, 2 URIs -- one could return a 303

18:02:17 [timbl_]

foo.rdf#poem

18:02:33 [timbl_]

That will cause a fetch of foo.rdf whcih describes foo.rdf#peoem

18:02:57 [Noah]

NM: With the obvious media type?

18:03:00 [Noah]

TBL: Yes.

18:03:05 [timbl_]

http://exa,ple.com/thingsILike/poems/rollingenglishdrunkard

18:03:35 [timbl_]

That 303s to ttp://exa,ple.com/thingsILike/poems.rdf which has stuff about it

18:03:41 [timbl_]

and I might ahve a

18:03:49 [timbl_]

version which has a repreentation and doe s a 200

18:03:59 [timbl_]

All thse can be owl:sameAs each other

18:04:59 [timbl_]

Example to show: 303 does not mean a non-infortaaion resource

18:05:42 [Noah]

NM: Yes, strongly agree (except perhaps that my knowledge of the nuances of owl:sameAs is sufficiently limited that I can only assume that bit's right too)

18:07:53 [raman]

ACTION: TimBL Find the paper that he annotated on the plane

18:07:53 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-43 - Find the paper that he annotated on the plane [on Tim Berners-Lee - due 2007-09-06].

18:08:26 [Zakim]

+Dave_Orchard

18:09:14 [raman]

Stuart: discussion on redirection 57?

18:09:22 [raman]

All to look at RL's draft

18:09:52 [raman]

Issue: Fragment identifiers and scripting

18:10:30 [Noah]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/living/2007/07/06/cnn.heroes.scott.southworth.two.cnn

18:10:52 [Noah]

TVR: Retrieve this page, you get HTML, but there are no IDs in the page that match.

18:11:48 [Noah]

TVR: Without indicating whether I think this is good or bad practice. They take out the fragid and cons up a new URL that references a piece of a video stream.

18:12:04 [Noah]

TVR: example.com/a/b/c?b=1

18:12:46 [Noah]

TVR: With text/html, they are doing that "ilk" of processing on the client.

18:13:03 [Noah]

TVR: using # syntax and fragids.

18:13:21 [Noah]

TVR: Is it time to document this, and explore interoperability questions?

18:13:50 [Noah]

TVR: Depending on your view of the media type spec. for text/html, the semantics of fragids are either very loosely or very narrowly defined.

18:14:47 [Noah]

TBL: architecturally, when you have e.g. a fragid being passed to a script, that's a different architecture and perhaps the fragid should be viewed as opaque

18:15:03 [Noah]

TBL: the normal case is that it

18:15:16 [Noah]

TBL: the normal case is that it's transparent in the sense that most everyone knows how to interpret it.

18:15:27 [Noah]

TVR: Note that it conses up another URI.

18:15:35 [Noah]

TBL: Inside the script?

18:16:12 [Noah]

TVR: Interesting question. The script is calling the media player with that newly munged URI. You'll see the other URL there.

18:16:24 [Noah]

DO: This is a URI mapping algorithm

18:19:01 [Noah]

NM: Right, so a media typed representation was returned. The spec for that media type either does or doesn't allow for this interpretation of the fragid. Specifically as a question of web arch: I don't swe why the question is any bigger than "if this is going to be legal, then the media type spec needs to bupdated"

18:19:02 [Rhys]

I tend to agree with Noah, that this looks like a question of what the rules are for text/html fragment ids

18:19:45 [Noah]

TVR: If that's the interpretation, we shouldn't be trading URLs with fragids if you don't know the rep

18:20:41 [Noah]

Web arch on fragid semantics is at: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#media-type-fragid

18:21:00 [Noah]

From: The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of representations that might result from a retrieval action on the primary resource. The fragment's format and resolution are therefore dependent on the type of a potentially retrieved representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced.

18:21:08 [Noah]

If no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are considered unknown and, effectively, unconstrained. Fragment identifier semantics are orthogonal to URI schemes and thus cannot be redefined by URI scheme specifications.

18:21:25 [Noah]

3.2.2. Fragment identifiers and content negotiation

18:22:30 [Noah]

I find it a bit frustrating that we're discussing this without first reading over what we've already written on this, which is in 3.2.2 of Web Arch. I agree with Norm it's unfortunately slippery, but we have said a lot about it.

18:22:56 [Noah]

From AWWWW:

18:22:59 [Noah]

"Consider an example where the owner of the URI "http://weather.example.com/oaxaca/map#zicatela" uses content negotiation to serve two representations of the identified resource. Three situations can arise:

18:23:07 [Noah]

1. The interpretation of "zicatela" is defined consistently by both data format specifications. The representation provider decides when definitions of fragment identifier semantics are are sufficiently consistent.

18:23:13 [Noah]

2. The interpretation of "zicatela" is defined inconsistently by the data format specifications.

18:23:20 [Noah]

3. The interpretation of "zicatela" is defined in one data format specification but not the other.

18:23:27 [Noah]

The first situation—consistent semantics—poses no problem.

18:23:34 [Noah]

The second case is a server management error: representation providers must not use content negotiation to serve representation formats that have inconsistent fragment identifier semantics. This situation also leads to URI collision (§2.2.1).

18:26:42 [Noah]

The third case is not a server management error. It is a means by which the Web can grow.

18:27:45 [Noah]

TVR: OK, I didn't know we'd ruled on that.

18:27:57 [Stuart]

from RFC 2854 text/html media type registration:

18:28:01 [Stuart]

3. Fragment Identifiers

18:28:01 [Stuart]

The URI specification [URI] notes that the semantics of a fragment

18:28:01 [Stuart]

identifier (part of a URI after a "#") is a property of the data

18:28:01 [Stuart]

resulting from a retrieval action, and that the format and

18:28:01 [Stuart]

interpretation of fragment identifiers is dependent on the media type

18:28:01 [Noah]

TVR: I think at very least, the fragid specification for the HTML media type should be revisited

18:28:02 [Stuart]

of the retrieval result.

18:28:04 [Stuart]

For documents labeled as text/html, the fragment identifier

18:28:07 [Stuart]

designates the correspondingly named element; any element may be

18:28:08 [Stuart]

named with the "id" attribute, and A, APPLET, FRAME, IFRAME, IMG and

18:28:10 [Stuart]

MAP elements may be named with a "name" attribute. This is described

18:28:12 [Stuart]

in detail in [HTML40] section 12.

18:29:11 [Noah]

Right, which is why I asked from the start why this isn't mainly a question of that media type specification.

18:30:18 [timbl_]

#raman #intro #alert

18:30:28 [timbl_]

person, para, js fun

18:31:39 [Noah]

TBL: I'm worried about mixed namespace documents, and the risk we'd head down the road of having the same fragid be both a person and a paragraph. I don't want to go there.

18:31:49 [timbl_]

Either the anchor namespace and people namespaces are separate or they are overlayed.

18:32:13 [Zakim]

-Dave_Orchard

18:32:55 [timbl_]

i think in this case with xml ns miing we have a dociument-wide namepscem,so they must be overlayed, so an id must not be used to identify both aan anchor and a paragraph

18:34:22 [Stuart]

adjouned

18:34:22 [Zakim]

-Norm

18:34:27 [Zakim]

-Rhys

18:34:44 [Zakim]

-Stuart

18:34:46 [Zakim]

-Raman

18:34:48 [Zakim]

-[IBMCambridge]

18:34:52 [Zakim]

-TimBL

18:34:53 [Zakim]

TAG_()1:00PM has ended

18:34:54 [Zakim]

Attendees were Stuart, +019628aaaa, Rhys, Norm, Noah, TimBL, Raman, Dave_Orchard, [IBMCambridge]

18:34:59 [timbl_]

Norm?

18:35:30 [timbl_]

Norm, call 617 253 5702?

18:38:29 [Norm]

Dialing

18:38:32 [Norm]

Package at door...

18:49:18 [timbl_]

http://linkeddata.org/

18:49:34 [timbl_]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData

18:49:46 [timbl_]

http://sites.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/pub/LinkedDataTutorial/

18:58:18 [timbl_]

try running Activity Monitor to find out what is running the CPU (or top off course)

18:58:26 [timbl_]

ooops he went

19:42:38 [Norm]

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