14:51:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:51:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc
14:51:42 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
14:52:20 <Steven> Regrets: Mark
14:52:44 <John_Boyer> a few others as well...
14:52:52 <John_Boyer> Did you mean MarkS or MarkB
14:52:53 <John_Boyer> ?
14:53:11 <John_Boyer> Oh, forgot to say... Steven
14:53:16 <John_Boyer> ruff
14:53:20 <Steven> lol
14:53:37 <Steven> MarkB, I forgot MarkS was back :-)
14:53:48 <Schnitz> Mark Seaborne is back?
14:53:56 <markseaborne> markseaborne has joined #forms
14:53:57 <Steven> s/Regrets: Mark/Regrets: MarkB/
14:54:07 <Schnitz> speaking of him... :-)
14:54:10 <Schnitz> Mark, hi!
14:54:15 <Steven> Regrets+Joern
14:54:15 <markseaborne> Hello there :-)
14:54:23 <Schnitz> welcome back! :-)
14:54:25 <Steven> Regrets:Uli
14:54:29 <markseaborne> ta very much
14:54:37 <Steven> s/:/+/
14:54:39 <Schnitz> we missed you!
14:54:50 <John_Boyer> Yes, esp. with Leigh being out today :-)
14:54:53 <markseaborne> well, you should take aim more carefully then!
14:54:59 <John_Boyer> wink, wink, nudge, nudge
14:54:59 <markseaborne> hmmmm
14:55:10 <Schnitz> markseaborne, are u replacing david landwehr?
14:55:11 <markseaborne> I don't know!
14:55:15 <markseaborne> yes
14:55:25 <markseaborne> though only on the WG :-)
14:55:31 <Schnitz> sure :-)
14:55:44 <markseaborne> he wanted to spend more time with his family ;-)
14:55:49 <Steven> lol
14:56:00 <John_Boyer> Regrets+Nick
14:56:07 <John_Boyer> Regrets+Leigh
14:56:10 <Charlie> Charlie has joined #forms
14:57:03 <Schnitz> ok...
14:57:11 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()11:00AM has now started
14:57:12 <Schnitz> switching laptops
14:57:17 <Schnitz> mom
14:57:18 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:57:40 <markseaborne> I thought sebastian didn't like laptops?
14:57:44 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
14:57:52 <Charlie> i bought him one :}
14:57:52 <John_Boyer> He seems to like IBM thinkpads...
14:58:06 <Charlie> (well, he paid for it...)
14:58:21 <Schnitz> Schnitz has joined #forms
14:58:27 <Schnitz> zakim, code?
14:58:27 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz
14:58:38 <markseaborne> fair enough
14:58:47 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:58:56 <Schnitz> Charlie, hi, the X40 is so great, thanks so much :-)
14:58:57 <Steven> You see that there is a UK Zakim now MarkS
14:59:09 <Zakim> +??P30
14:59:13 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
14:59:14 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:59:27 <Schnitz> zakim, ??p30 is me
14:59:27 <Zakim> +Schnitz; got it
14:59:29 <markseaborne> goodness
14:59:36 <wellsk> wellsk has joined #forms
14:59:37 <Schnitz> zakim, who is here?
14:59:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz
14:59:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
14:59:42 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:59:57 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:59:57 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
15:00:08 <Zakim> +Raman
15:00:16 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:26 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:26 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:28 <Zakim> +Steven
15:01:28 <lars> lars has joined #forms
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P48
15:01:30 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, [IBM], Steven, ??P48
15:01:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see lars, wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
15:01:34 <Roger> zakim, ??p48 is roger
15:01:35 <Zakim> +roger; got it
15:02:29 <Zakim> +??P53
15:02:32 <Zakim> +??P51
15:02:35 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
15:03:07 <Schnitz> raman, ping
15:03:27 <Zakim> -??P53
15:03:34 <ebruchez> well, I was ??P53
15:03:43 <ebruchez> so I guess Lars was 51
15:03:47 <lars> zakim, I am ??P51
15:03:57 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:00 <Zakim> +lars; got it
15:04:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:06 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:11 <ebruchez> zakim, ebruchez is [IP
15:04:12 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:14 <Zakim> sorry, ebruchez, I do not recognize a party named 'ebruchez'
15:04:25 <ebruchez> zkim, [IP is ebruchez
15:04:26 <Zakim> +??P57
15:05:07 <raman> raman has joined #forms
15:05:08 <John_Boyer> Scribe: raman
15:05:08 <markseaborne> me
15:05:15 <raman> Scribe: Raman
15:05:29 <markseaborne> it is MarkS
15:05:32 <Steven> zakim, [IP is ebruchez
15:05:32 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:05:40 <markseaborne> but you can't hear me for some reason
15:05:54 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:05:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, [IBM], Steven, roger, lars, ebruchez, ??P57
15:05:54 <markseaborne> MEEEEE!!!!!!
15:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see raman, lars, wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
15:06:09 <wellsk> zakim, IBM is wellsk
15:06:09 <Zakim> +wellsk; got it
15:06:23 <Steven> zakim, ??P57 is markseaborne
15:06:23 <Zakim> +markseaborne; got it
15:06:32 <markseaborne> I am having problems with speech
15:06:35 <markseaborne> don't know why
15:06:44 <markseaborne> I'm shouting as loud as I can
15:06:46 <Steven> zakim, ack markseaborne
15:06:46 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:06:50 <markseaborne> IS THAT BETTER!!!!!!
15:06:53 <John_Boyer> no
15:06:55 <Steven> nope
15:07:15 <markseaborne> yes
15:07:16 <lars> zakim, unmute markseaborne, PLEASE!
15:07:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute markseaborne, PLEASE!', lars
15:07:23 <markseaborne> It is a hardware problem at this end
15:07:27 <lars> mpf
15:07:32 <markseaborne> my mic isn't working
15:07:42 <Steven> scribe: raman
15:07:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:08:04 <ebruchez> congratulations
15:08:06 <markseaborne> Thanks :-)
15:08:13 <Schnitz> yeah, great to have you back
15:08:14 <markseaborne> nice to be back
15:08:15 <Charlie> welcome!
15:08:18 <markseaborne> :-)
15:08:25 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0084.html
15:08:32 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:08:42 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt
15:09:07 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
15:10:01 <Steven> Topic: Charter
15:10:02 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt
15:10:16 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html
15:10:59 <Schnitz> zakim, mute me
15:10:59 <Zakim> Schnitz should now be muted
15:12:13 <Schnitz> zakim, unmute me
15:12:13 <Zakim> Schnitz should no longer be muted
15:12:21 <Schnitz> steven, +1
15:15:13 <Schnitz> scribe: Sebastian
15:15:23 <Steven> scribenick: schnitz
15:15:43 <Schnitz> ACTION: John to respond to Chris Lilley about the relationship between XHTML Transitional and the Forms & HTML WGs
15:15:53 <Zakim> -roger
15:16:00 <Schnitz> Topic: Coming Calls
15:16:22 <Schnitz> John: Regrets for next week?
15:16:24 <Schnitz> Charlie: YES
15:16:35 <Schnitz> John: +Leigh
15:16:40 <Schnitz> +Raman
15:16:52 <Schnitz> Raman: regrets next week
15:16:52 <Zakim> + +03491211aaaa
15:16:57 <Schnitz> John: we habe enough people
15:17:08 <Schnitz> RESOLUTION: Next call will take place as planned
15:17:09 <Roger> zakim, 211aaa is roger
15:17:09 <Zakim> sorry, Roger, I do not recognize a party named '211aaa'
15:17:20 <Schnitz> Topic: Questionaire for the summer period
15:17:27 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Roger
15:17:27 <Zakim> +Roger; got it
15:17:30 <Schnitz> John: Steven, status?
15:17:39 <Schnitz> Steven: On my to-do list
15:17:54 <Schnitz> Topic: XForms evening at XML conference
15:18:04 <Schnitz> John: We have thumbs up from Dave Steinhard
15:18:13 <Schnitz> John: conflict on Dec 4
15:18:21 <Schnitz> John: affects Steven
15:18:44 <Schnitz> Steven, cannot do much, unfortunately
15:18:54 <Schnitz> s/Steven,/Steven:
15:19:15 <Schnitz> RESOLUTION: We will continue with Dec 4, w/o Steven
15:19:16 <John_Boyer> 28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0081.html
15:19:47 <Schnitz> John: We need a copy for a call for papers
15:19:57 <Schnitz> John: we should have an invited speaker
15:20:07 <Schnitz> John: I propose Michael Kay
15:20:16 <Schnitz> Raman: possible
15:20:39 <Schnitz> Raman: That focus is XML though, I rather see Jacob Nielson, focus on Usabilityt
15:20:55 <Schnitz> s/Usabilityt/Usability
15:21:10 <Schnitz> John: Would Jacob attract the audience?
15:21:14 <Schnitz> Raman: YES
15:21:46 <Schnitz> ACTION: Steven to provide contact details for Jacob
15:22:23 <Schnitz> Charlie: That would warm people up
15:22:38 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
15:22:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-22-38
15:22:42 <Schnitz> John: other ideas?
15:22:49 <Schnitz> Steven: Kurt Cagle
15:22:54 <Schnitz> Sebastian: +1
15:23:02 <Schnitz> Raman: +1
15:23:13 <Schnitz> ACTION: John to invite Kurt Cagle
15:23:23 <Schnitz> Topic: Joint Forms Task Force
15:23:33 <Schnitz> John: Pushed it up to the HCG
15:23:43 <Schnitz> John: Agreed about equal membership
15:23:52 <Schnitz> John: Then push it back down to chairs
15:23:59 <John_Boyer> 28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0070.html
15:24:03 <Schnitz> John: Letter is out, no response yet
15:24:13 <Schnitz> John: Problem is, Dave is not here
15:25:08 <Schnitz> Raman: Don't rush, the TF could be quickly smashed
15:25:23 <Schnitz> Raman: IMHO, won't go anywhere
15:25:36 <Schnitz> Raman: Its a mess, I have no idea what to do
15:25:47 <Schnitz> John: 12 people on the HTML WG side have interest
15:26:39 <Schnitz> Raman: They won't allow wiggle room
15:29:54 <Schnitz> Sebastian, Raman: Not rushing it is a good idea
15:30:26 <Schnitz> John: Those interested from other side could in the meanwhile could be looking into ease of authoring
15:30:35 <Schnitz> Raman: Just do it.
15:30:46 <Schnitz> s/other side/our side
15:31:01 <Schnitz> Topic: Action Item List
15:31:13 <Schnitz> John: Issue Tracking is important
15:31:31 <Schnitz> John: The Action Item List grows, but we need more folks take on work on a weekly basis
15:31:46 <Schnitz> Raman: I have not been doing much
15:32:14 <Schnitz> John: The Wiki needs more work
15:32:42 <Schnitz> ACTION: WG members look into their Action Items, and start working on them on the Wiki
15:33:10 <Schnitz> Raman: ciao
15:33:12 <Zakim> -Raman
15:33:22 <Schnitz> Topic: LC Issues
15:33:39 <John_Boyer> 28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=72;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:34:26 <Steven> Issue Controls/72
15:34:35 <Schnitz> John: Issue from Steven
15:34:50 <Schnitz> John: Do we have an ETA on this?
15:35:05 <Schnitz> Steven: Did we accept it?
15:35:14 <Schnitz> John: Classified as still needing work
15:35:42 <Schnitz> Steven: trying to work this out...
15:35:54 <Schnitz> John: It needs approval
15:36:28 <Schnitz> Steven: Somebody things this is a solution, but the group need to discuss this, but it doesn't say what the resolution is
15:36:40 <Schnitz> Steven: the first thing is that the wording should be different
15:37:04 <Schnitz> Steven: Then, very few controls says what the default styling should be
15:37:15 <Schnitz> Sebastian: UA CSS?
15:37:21 <Schnitz> Steven: Possibly
15:37:36 <Schnitz> Sebastian: Display property?
15:38:05 <Schnitz> Sebastian: inline for trigger
15:38:36 <Schnitz> Steven: ah default UA CSS would be fine
15:38:49 <Schnitz> John: things like relevant go beyond, though
15:39:16 <Schnitz> Steven: relevant is display: none for irrelevant
15:39:30 <Schnitz> John: Is this a informative appendix?
15:39:36 <Schnitz> Steven: should be stronger
15:40:02 <Schnitz> Steven: Maybe not MUST, but in case of validity, it SHOULD always be visible as being invalid, e.g.
15:40:42 <Schnitz> Steven: I do not require a particular presentation but we should require that something needs to be done
15:40:59 <Schnitz> John: this seems like for ALL form controls, not particular ones
15:41:31 <Schnitz> Steven: Select1 inline as a drop-down, block as radio?
15:41:40 <Schnitz> Lars: Radios could be inline
15:41:48 <Schnitz> Steven: Maybe, maybe all inline
15:42:06 <Schnitz> Sebastian: Radio button themselves could be inline-block
15:43:05 <Schnitz> Steven: That is CSS3
15:43:16 <Schnitz> Sebastian: Right 
15:44:01 <Schnitz> Erik: It is diffcult, in can be both vertial and horizontal
15:44:07 <Roger> I agree with Erik
15:44:16 <Schnitz> John: don't know whether we should go down that route
15:44:30 <Schnitz> Steven: There is a certain level that has to be normative
15:44:41 <Schnitz> Steven: you should expect certain things to happen
15:44:54 <Schnitz> Steven: So you know what to put in a User CSS
15:45:09 <Schnitz> Steven: Establishing Basic Expectations
15:45:18 <Schnitz> Lars: Default UA CSS?
15:45:27 <Schnitz> Steven: Just say all controls are default inline
15:45:42 <Schnitz> Steven: and all MIPS are all perceivable by the user
15:45:44 <markseaborne> Isn't presentation more down to the host language?
15:45:48 <Schnitz> John: what about read-onlu?
15:45:55 <Charlie> i'd suggest whatever language we specify clarify that this is just for visual UIs
15:45:56 <markseaborne> You really need some context before you can make assumptions
15:46:02 <Schnitz> s/read-onlu/read-only
15:46:16 <Schnitz> Steven: No, read-only also could have a hint, like being grey
15:46:53 <Schnitz> Steven: disabled, the label is greyed out, read-only, the value is greyed out
15:47:01 <Schnitz> Erik: its the way it behaves
15:47:26 <Schnitz> Lars: I also find it more convenient to see what to expect
15:48:00 <Schnitz> John: in other langauges read-only e.g. is not shown
15:48:12 <Schnitz> Steven: you can control that, we are talking about the default
15:48:31 <Schnitz> Erik: we would just say its an indication, not e.g. being grey
15:48:45 <Schnitz> John: someone needs to write the text 
15:48:52 <Schnitz> Sebastian: Steven is the one
15:48:58 <Schnitz> ACTION: Steven to write something up
15:50:10 <Schnitz> Sebastian: It would be good to have a mapping into CSS 3 UI syntax
15:50:31 <Steven> PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and that all MIP properties should be visible on attached controls
15:50:42 <Schnitz> s/something up/text for Issue Controls 72
15:50:49 <Charlie> for visual interfaces
15:50:55 <Steven> s/visible/perceivable
15:51:08 <Charlie> don't think inline has an equivalent in voicexml
15:52:10 <Roger_> Roger_ has joined #forms
15:52:16 <Steven> PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be preceivable on attached controls
15:52:41 <Charlie> for visual interfaces...
15:54:31 <Schnitz> Charlie: OK, I'm happy
15:54:45 <Steven> POPOSAL: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction
15:54:57 <Schnitz> Lars: From an XForms perspective, controls should be more abstract
15:55:00 <Steven> r/POP/PROP/
15:55:07 <Steven> s/POP/PRO/
15:55:11 <Schnitz> Charlie: I think its OK since inline is not only for visual medias
15:55:22 <Steven> RESOLUTION: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction
15:55:24 <Schnitz> John: works for me, any objection
15:55:29 <Schnitz> No objections
15:55:39 <Schnitz> Steven, thanks
15:55:45 <John_Boyer> 28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=73;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:55:47 <Schnitz> Topic: Issue 73
15:55:57 <Schnitz> Controls/73
15:56:09 <Schnitz> John: We already agreed on a resolution see the notes
15:56:22 <Schnitz> zakim, who is making noise?
15:56:34 <Zakim> Schnitz, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:56:40 <Schnitz> John: Steven, you raised a media type issue
15:57:06 <Schnitz> John: use @value instead of @ref, and we modified to say "in addition to"
15:57:18 <Schnitz> Erik: why do you actually need the ref attribute?
15:57:25 <Schnitz> John: we discussed that
15:57:42 <Schnitz> John: we tried to mirror with the xforms output the things you can with the xforms upload
15:58:23 <Schnitz> Erik: I you have an output the media type will be chosen by the author, as to opposed to the upload, probably
15:59:02 <Schnitz> John: upload the media type attibute constrains, output picks that up to feed to rendering engine
15:59:50 <Schnitz> John: ref attribute was added to easy sync between output and upload
15:59:59 <Schnitz> Erik: I am skeptical
16:00:19 <Schnitz> Steven: We tried to be consistent with upload
16:00:38 <Schnitz> Steven: when we do not want to be consistent, because they are different, fine, then never mind
16:01:09 <Schnitz> Erik: The media type value is a string, not a single node, don't confuse that
16:01:20 <Schnitz> John: we need an action item to make the change
16:01:28 <Schnitz> John: the value attribute will be added
16:01:37 <Schnitz> John: the question is whether we throw out ref
16:01:55 <Schnitz> Erik: we are generally working around not having attribute value template
16:02:12 <Schnitz> Erik: I don't really see why we would use ref attribute, only for symmetry, is not enough
16:02:24 <Schnitz> John: Top of the hour
16:02:29 <Roger_> thx
16:02:30 <markseaborne> bye bye
16:02:33 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:02:39 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:02:39 <Roger_> Roger_ has left #forms
16:02:41 <Zakim> -wellsk
16:02:43 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:02:44 <wellsk> wellsk has left #forms
16:02:47 <Zakim> -Steven
16:02:53 <Zakim> -Roger
16:02:55 <Zakim> -Schnitz
16:02:59 <Zakim> -lars
16:03:01 <Zakim> -markseaborne
16:03:03 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()11:00AM has ended
16:03:06 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:03:07 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, Steven, roger, lars, [IPcaller], ebruchez, wellsk, markseaborne, +03491211aaaa
16:03:13 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has left #forms
16:03:15 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:03:18 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:03:23 <Schnitz> Steven, thanks
16:03:24 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:03:39 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-actions.rdf :
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to respond to Chris Lilley about the relationship between XHTML Transitional and the Forms & HTML WGs [1]
16:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-15-43
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to provide contact details for Jacob [2]
16:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-21-46
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to invite Kurt Cagle [3]
16:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-23-13
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: WG members look into their Action Items, and start working on them on the Wiki [4]
16:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-32-42
16:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to write something up [5]
16:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-48-58
16:03:54 <markseaborne> markseaborne has left #forms