IRC log of xtech on 2007-05-18

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meeting: DHTML Style Guide Conference Call
16:08:41 [oedipus]
chair: Thomas Wlodkowski
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scribe: Gregory Rosmaita
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ScribeNick: oedipus
16:09:52 [oedipus]
TW: expected keyboard commands for widgets -- how should a tab panel be interacted with; becky working on dojo (ajax); AOL and Google working on these issues, Jon G is member of an email working group
16:10:24 [oedipus]
haven't made progress; moved to XTech so that could get more participation; biweekly calls - little email
16:11:36 [oedipus]
TW: immediate needs - where is there a sample site; Al Gilman getting ARIA wiki together, place to post, becky has wiki on her own site, but probably need to migrate once ARIA wiki created; end is to have a document that would list desired keyboard commands for widgets
16:12:21 [oedipus]
JonG: building a series of test widgets; part of documentation is keyboard support; want to ensure best practices; consistency of keystrokes; will send a link to current test
16:12:32 [oedipus]
TW: send to XTech
16:12:41 [oedipus]
JonG: what is URI of becky's wiki?
16:13:14 [oedipus]
becky: been using my WIKI to capture definitions; hash out proposals and have editors to clean up
16:13:29 [oedipus]
TW: proposals via email; when people have exammples, send a URI
16:14:06 [oedipus]
becky: been making decisions and making things with dojo - www.dojotool.org - nightly builds (may not be updated nightly)
16:14:26 [oedipus]
becky: do a lot on the dojo wiki to document what we are doing for the widgets we are working on
16:15:24 [davidb]
http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/
16:15:47 [oedipus]
TW: what makes it easier to get comments from end users and other folks? tell them to check out a TabPanel and give feedback -- if works, perhaps that becomes de facto keyboard gesture; now that Dojo has gone ahead, AOL working on keyboard access here, JonG working on ARIA test suites at CITA -- ideas for more exposure?
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TW: tried to spark discussion -- need mechanism for free discussion about behavior of particular widget
16:16:52 [oedipus]
David: wiki a good idea; perhaps have a big table of widgets, layouts, etc. link to examples, notes as to why we chose things
16:17:30 [oedipus]
Bruce: some decisions made through dojo work; still makes sense to have seperate wiki, pointing to dojo; focus should be accessibility
16:18:04 [oedipus]
becky: can only hear every other word
16:18:50 [oedipus]
Bruce: wiki still makes sense even though dojo done a lot of implementations; link to dojo wiki as proof of concept or examples; central repository
16:21:23 [oedipus]
becky: don't have problem keeping wiki; backed off because don't want to have to post everything individually or open access to my web site; only issue with dojo is that a lot of the work still isn't done; going through a major overhaul -- redoing widgets, use bug-tracking system to ask for featureX and link to wiki, can agree or disagree, but may not be working; menu in pretty good shape; keyboard support for context menu implemented; checkboxes and radio but
16:21:40 [oedipus]
Bruce: links to dojo - no full implementation, but this is what is being worked upon
16:22:25 [oedipus]
TW: what is the most efficient way to do this: capture end result on wiki and put a pointer to wiki page to wai-xtech list? ask for feedback - does it work, does it not work; what is best way to get feedback
16:22:40 [oedipus]
becky: sometimes get sporadic response from XTech, most times nothing
16:23:20 [oedipus]
JonG: biweekly telecons - agenda of which widgets should be addressed; get consensus on keystrokes -- want to work on harder stuff
16:23:39 [oedipus]
TW: like biweekly meeting; TV Raman doesn't like phone - prefers email discussion
16:24:16 [oedipus]
TW: keep momentum going, may have a meeting next week and then biweekly thereafter; developers need to tell us what is the same and what is different?
16:25:04 [oedipus]
becky: grid has serious issue -- is it like spreadsheet with no focus on header, or do you need focus on the header, how does it differentiate from table? particularly thorny problem: focus in headers or not
16:25:52 [oedipus]
becky: allow people to havigate through actual headers; in cell, only get into row 1 column 1; in table with TableHeader should people be allowed to navigate header
16:26:23 [oedipus]
JonG: immediate benefit: textfield combo box, tree view, slider -- we could review those at first telecon, and update them to refelct consensus of group
16:26:35 [oedipus]
becky: TabPanel one i have additional questions on
16:27:05 [oedipus]
TW: preview, TabPanel, and slider; may only get through 1 widget in a call, whatever doesn't get covered gets carried to next meeting
16:27:22 [becka11y]
tree proposal is here: http://www.weba11y.com/styleguide/index.php?title=Tree
16:27:40 [oedipus]
JonG: what about dedicating portions of meeting to different widgets; give people a week to think about other people's thoughts
16:27:44 [oedipus]
TW: agree
16:30:00 [oedipus]
TW: if there is a base implementation, when post agenda -- talk about TabPanel - there is one implementation in dojo that does X; at least gives us a base to start on call; repeat for each widget; where no work done on widget, a free-for-all until comes up on call -- might need to answer questions first: do headers need to have focus? what is diff between email grids and spreadsheet grids? sorting issues into questions that guide us; posting that type of info
16:30:11 [oedipus]
TW: is friday at noon good for people on call?
16:30:18 [oedipus]
becky: fridays are hard
16:30:48 [oedipus]
TW: is there a day folks would prefer; want a standing meeting and meeting time, work on getting those working on implementations to code up test samples for us
16:30:59 [oedipus]
Gregory: friday
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David: anything but wednesday
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JonG: mondays and wednesdays bad
16:32:22 [oedipus]
becky: if works for most people i'm ok with that; if can't make it, will track via email; not going to be here next week -- memorial day holiday
16:32:47 [oedipus]
TW: then need to make it june 1 at noon ESDT, 9 PSDT
16:33:14 [oedipus]
Resolved: will meet biweekly beginning 1 june 2007 at noon EDST
16:34:07 [oedipus]
TW: everytime i turn around there is either an intellectual property issue, need to get a baseline down and then get agreement and consensus; what do people want behaviours to be?
16:34:22 [oedipus]
TW: focus on tree and TabPanel and slider to begin with
16:34:32 [oedipus]
JonG: sent link to XTech
16:34:41 [oedipus]
TW: mirroring standard OS behaviors?
16:35:27 [oedipus]
JonG: up and down arrow move between items, right and left expand and collapse; haven't done a lot of testing with ATs, but works in MSAA Inspector (info is there);
16:35:40 [oedipus]
TW: do you have to TAB to get content?
16:36:22 [oedipus]
JonG: once in the tree, use arrow keys, if use TAB, would TAB out of tree; could toggle expand/collapse with spacebar; do we want a toggle or standfast fucntionality
16:36:43 [oedipus]
becky: tree written up; what i submitted to web mail group took comments and put in actual style guide
16:37:45 [oedipus]
TW: active regions need keyboard behaviors pre-defined or leave it to individual devs?
16:37:47 [Jon]
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16:38:35 [oedipus]
becky: can't implement active regions yet, dojo has to work with FireFox 2; even if can't mark up regions right now and have them identified by AT want people to be able to move from region to region - can't implement as live regions until FireFox 3 comes out
16:39:38 [oedipus]
TW: wide-open for widgets we discuss; better if ahead of implementation, with knowledge that ideas need to evolve; talk about widgets before marked up - set paramaters; is there a list of widgets
16:40:06 [oedipus]
ACTION: Becky will post list of dojo widgets to wai-xtech
16:40:24 [oedipus]
TW: how do we make list iterative; if not on wiki, what will people do?
16:40:32 [oedipus]
becky: on wiki or mail list?
16:40:44 [oedipus]
TW: mailing list is fine, but want things documented on wiki
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becky: i'll be responsible to transfer from list to wiki
16:41:38 [oedipus]
ACTION: TW send out email to XTech - next meeting 1 June 2007 - topic will be: tree, slider, TabPanel
16:41:55 [oedipus]
ACTION: EVERYONE: find implementations that haven't already been tracked slash listed
16:42:33 [oedipus]
ACTION: Becky will be responsible for transfer of information from XTech to wiki
16:43:22 [oedipus]
JonG: CITA slider works with JAWS with virtual PC cursor off -- updates values correctly
16:43:39 [oedipus]
TW: how do we resolve keystrokes used by AT and those reserved for widgets;
16:44:31 [oedipus]
JonG: issue with ARIA things; most screen readers have web navigation mode, currently have to go out of web navigation mode, which is a kludge; needs implementation -- user doesn't want to have to learn yet another mode
16:44:38 [oedipus]
becky: already have to do that for forms
16:44:44 [oedipus]
JonG: yes
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Bruce: bring this to attention of AT vendors
16:45:09 [davidb]
(that was me)
16:45:22 [oedipus]
TW: definitely; Glen Gordon (Freedom Scientific)
16:45:43 [davidb]
no problem :)
16:46:56 [oedipus]
TW: raise at meetings; users have to use bypass key on JAWS and Window-Eyes have to teach user
16:47:16 [oedipus]
GJR: most screen reader users know about passthrough keys
16:47:29 [oedipus]
JonG: want to keep learning curve to a minimum
16:48:24 [oedipus]
TW: ease of use and communicating to end user; when get into ARIA or dynamic widgets but how can you communicate to user?
16:48:54 [oedipus]
becky: trying to stay away from keyboard shortcuts; for dojo have to document for widgets, up to dev to give info to user
16:50:27 [oedipus]
web based media player -- same functionality expected from similar apps; how do we make web apps less and less than navigating a web document, and more like interaction with software
16:53:08 [oedipus]
becky: in scripting have timing issues;
16:54:10 [oedipus]
becky: have to write all keyboard handlers in scripting
16:54:49 [oedipus]
GJR: general keyboard gestures and behavior - let user set modifier
16:54:55 [oedipus]
TW: any other issues?
16:55:51 [oedipus]
next meeting: discussion of tree, slider, and TabPanel (20 minutes each); use same call in number and passcode for next meeting;
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