IRC log of rif on 2007-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:40:22 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-irc

13:40:36 [sandro]

rrsagent, make record public

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13:40:55 [ChrisW]

Meeting: RIF F2F 27 Feb 2007

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13:44:00 [sandro]

zakim, who is on the phone?

13:44:00 [Zakim]

apparently SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has ended, sandro

13:44:01 [Zakim]

On IRC I see DaveReynolds, BobMoore, PaulVincent, csma, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, Hassan, rifbot, Zakim

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13:44:47 [Zakim]

SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has now started

13:44:54 [Zakim]

+meeting_room

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13:51:21 [ChrisW]

zakim, meeting_room contains Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG

13:51:21 [Zakim]

+Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG; got it

13:58:28 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

13:58:58 [ChrisW]

Scribe: Allen

13:59:05 [sandro]

discussion over what the leading "-" means on the UML diagrams? it seems to mean something about public/private -- something we don't care about here.

13:59:26 [sandro]

(prefixing the names of relations/properties)

13:59:43 [allen]

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14:00:42 [allen]

discussion about UML diagram for structure of RIF Core Rules

14:01:03 [allen]

question why can't we rename implies to rule?

14:01:15 [sandro]

Christian shows outline of UML from PRR.

14:02:13 [allen]

csma: why forall is a class?

14:02:25 [Hassan]

Please everyone make sure to turn on your mikes! Thanks.

14:02:59 [Hassan]

Thanks!

14:03:09 [allen]

csma : what about rule-set?

14:03:20 [allen]

harold: could be a level above

14:03:59 [allen]

paul also questions forall class

14:04:17 [Hassan]

mike?

14:04:29 [LeoraMorgenstern]

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14:04:58 [sandro]

Sandro: "forall" as a class comes from the standard FOL syntactic nesting

14:05:17 [allen]

sandro: this maps to scoping

14:06:04 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

14:06:11 [sandro]

Allen: "forall" represents the class of universally quanitified formulas

14:06:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]

zakim, please mute me

14:06:17 [Zakim]

Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted

14:06:18 [allen]

chris: this mirrors fol syntax

14:06:58 [allen]

csma: why is the rule associated with forall instead of implies?

14:07:12 [ChrisW]

scribenick: Allen

14:07:12 [allen]

harold: keep it general for extensibility

14:08:00 [sandro]

error in diagram --- forall can take either an implies or a positive --- diagram says it has to have both.

14:08:08 [allen]

harold: positive is a disjunction?

14:08:46 [allen]

csma: should we extend this arbitrary formulas?

14:08:54 [allen]

sandro: at some point yes

14:09:13 [allen]

harold: you need disjunctions for integrity constraints

14:10:06 [allen]

csma: link from forall to postive?

14:10:21 [allen]

hassan: likes this diagram

14:10:42 [allen]

hassan: this covers prolog class of languagaes nicely

14:11:00 [allen]

chris: but there is still a problem with the diagram

14:11:49 [allen]

csma: that link allows for rules with empty body

14:12:03 [allen]

harold: it is only a matter of brevity of expression

14:12:16 [allen]

csma: straw poll on this

14:12:53 [allen]

5 prefer as is

14:13:03 [sandro]

straw poll preference 5-to-3 for having facts as themselves, instead of as degenerate rules

14:13:09 [allen]

3 prefer remove that link

14:13:15 [allen]

2 don't care

14:13:26 [Harold]

Hereditary Harrop Formula: http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.PL/0404053

14:13:49 [allen]

mike: why it a 1 on the formula side?

14:14:06 [allen]

harold: to be consistent with horne

14:14:14 [sandro]

s/horne/Horn/

14:14:52 [allen]

csma: have the same problem as yesterday: syntax vs. metamodel points of view

14:15:26 [allen]

hassan: to harold why do you want this "At all costs"

14:16:07 [allen]

hassan: don't understand arg for having facts without implies?

14:16:20 [allen]

harold: it make is simpler to write facts

14:17:03 [allen]

csma: so we keep it as it for now

14:17:25 [allen]

dave: but you do need to get the disjunction in there

14:17:45 [allen]

jos: there is a way to do that in uml

14:18:16 [allen]

chris: let's use an intermediate class like in first diagram

14:18:27 [allen]

harold: ok, we can use "clause"

14:18:50 [allen]

csma: clause is either a rule or a fact

14:19:22 [allen]

csma draws diagram on whiteboard

14:20:34 [allen]

sandro recommends some changes

14:21:24 [allen]

mike: what about duplication of positive?

14:21:42 [allen]

harold: it is just a readability thing

14:22:43 [Hassan]

mikes???

14:22:45 [allen]

sandro: forall vs. rule,

14:23:14 [allen]

sandro: rules should be same as formula

14:23:49 [allen]

csma: suppose we need existential rule variables (shared by body and head)

14:24:07 [allen]

harold: that can definitely happen

14:24:21 [allen]

harold: it would be side-by-side with forall

14:24:35 [allen]

harold goes to whiteboard

14:25:33 [allen]

harold: ruleset cotains 0 or more of univerally or existen clauses

14:26:40 [allen]

csma redraws diagram

14:27:03 [Hassan]

It's hard to follow : no mikes for most (except Christian) and no diagrams!

14:28:51 [allen]

csma: postpone decision vis-a-avis core

14:29:20 [allen]

csma describes simpler diagram

14:29:46 [allen]

csma: does any object to having this in core wd1?

14:30:23 [Hassan]

The description was too fast for me to catch all details ... :-(

14:30:37 [allen]

sandro: where is rule?

14:31:13 [allen]

jos: we need to be consistent. rename ruleset or use something called rule

14:32:52 [allen]

mike: it is odd not to have "rule"

14:32:59 [Hassan]

I second Mike's point...

14:33:05 [sandro]

Christian objects to my proposal that Rule==Formula on the grounds that recursion is too much for WD1.

14:33:36 [allen]

csma redraws diagram with rule inserted btwn ruleset and forall

14:34:17 [sandro]

Christian proposes a replacement version where Rule is a superclass of Forall, but under Forall is the same as before, for now.

14:34:53 [Hassan]

A pic of updated diagrams would be nice (anyone a camera)?

14:34:56 [allen]

harold: rule is very general includes facts

14:35:34 [allen]

harold: and integrity constraints

14:35:43 [allen]

paul is taking a shot of the diagram

14:36:28 [allen]

harold: allows non-ground facts

14:37:39 [allen]

csma: any objections to new diagram?

14:38:16 [allen]

sandro: can a ruleset directly contain a clause?

14:38:32 [allen]

csma: yes

14:38:41 [allen]

sandro: consider the xml

14:39:05 [allen]

csma: concrete syntax not supplied by this diagram

14:39:27 [Hassan]

(Thanks Paul!)

14:39:35 [allen]

sandro: a fact would still need an empty forall list

14:40:28 [sandro]

sandro: can a clause be a rule?

14:40:37 [allen]

sandro: you don't want to recurse on rule

14:40:54 [allen]

csma: i don't understand the implications of that

14:41:12 [allen]

csma: keep it like this for wd1

14:41:35 [allen]

harold: I will add some "blue" explanatory text about this

14:41:44 [allen]

csma: no new material

14:42:14 [allen]

csma: add new comments to draft in progress, not to released wd1

14:42:44 [Hassan]

I do not have the info yet to vote

14:42:45 [allen]

paul: can we identify these diagrams somehow

14:44:22 [allen]

sandro: is fact a superclass of postive?

14:44:33 [allen]

csma: fact is a kind of clause

14:44:41 [Hassan]

Is there a better name than "positive"?

14:45:19 [allen]

harold: may be a bit redundant

14:46:17 [allen]

csma: we can't resolve all the issues, but can we agree to publish "that one" for wd1

14:47:24 [allen]

csma: prefers to keep "fact" and positive separate to avoid recursion

14:47:36 [allen]

harold: wants to merge them

14:47:59 [allen]

harold: but don't call it either of those, might use "litform"

14:48:52 [allen]

csma: straw poll on replacing fact with positive, currently call the merger "positive"

14:48:56 [sandro]

straw poll: merge Fact and Positive 5 in favor, 3 against,

14:48:59 [allen]

5 in favor, 3 against

14:49:21 [allen]

csma: put this merger in 1st wd

14:49:39 [allen]

mike objects

14:50:33 [sandro]

s/mike objects/mike does not object/

14:50:40 [allen]

no objects to changing

14:51:03 [allen]

csma objects

14:51:40 [allen]

csma withdraws objection

14:51:58 [allen]

harold and michael: we like "Atom"

14:52:50 [allen]

hassan: objects to other names too, like "uniterm" etc

14:52:59 [allen]

csma: not discussing that now

14:53:14 [allen]

csma describes change of fact to atom

14:54:05 [allen]

hassan is ok with publishing in wd1 except for certain names

14:54:29 [allen]

sandro: as its written here the role names are not in diagram

14:54:41 [allen]

hassan : what about uniterm?

14:54:59 [allen]

harold: a "universal term" atom or expression

14:55:19 [allen]

csma: what do we need to add to diagram., roles?

14:55:35 [allen]

harold: we need it to bridge communities

14:55:39 [allen]

hassan: i differ

14:55:59 [allen]

hassan: if-then in production rules is not implies

14:56:01 [MoZ]

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14:56:43 [allen]

paul: this is an "Abstract model" for an abstraction...

14:56:58 [allen]

dave: but for not the xml syntax would contain these names

14:57:31 [allen]

s/for not /for now

14:58:08 [allen]

csma: don't add names for roles for now, avoid contention

14:58:28 [allen]

harold: what about the minus signs

14:59:11 [allen]

sandro: are you proposing giving up mapping to xml

14:59:25 [allen]

csma: no, but don't include names for roles in wd1

14:59:26 [Hassan]

I agree with Sandro

14:59:41 [allen]

sandro: first wd should be implementable

15:00:04 [allen]

sandro: i thought we had an xml syntax from these diagrams, fully striped

15:00:15 [allen]

harold: we need the roles

15:00:56 [allen]

paul: will the syntax use class or role names

15:01:02 [allen]

sandro: both

15:01:19 [allen]

paul: shouldn't class be generic roles specific to domain

15:01:48 [allen]

csma & paul: use body and head for roles

15:02:09 [allen]

paul: the vocabulary can change for other dialects

15:03:21 [allen]

paul: atomic formula ok, implies and forall no

15:04:45 [allen]

hassan: antecedent, consequent, var to variable

15:05:19 [allen]

sandro: sympathetic to it, but torn because everyone thinks in terms of if-then

15:06:04 [allen]

john: if-part then-part

15:06:49 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

15:06:54 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

15:30:17 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

15:30:56 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

15:31:59 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:31:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room

15:32:00 [Zakim]

meeting_room has Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG

15:32:00 [sandro]

scribe: Sandro

15:32:05 [sandro]

scribenick: sandro

15:32:37 [ChrisW]

zakim, meeting_room has DeborahN

15:32:37 [Zakim]

+DeborahN; got it

15:32:44 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:32:44 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room

15:32:45 [Zakim]

meeting_room has DeborahN

15:32:56 [ChrisW]

zakim, meeting_room contains Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG, DeborahN

15:32:56 [Zakim]

DeborahN was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

15:32:57 [Harold]

Because of their identical content models, Uniterm is unification/merger of an Atom (in the sense of a predicate applied to arguments) and an Expression. As a minor new point, instead of POSITIVE we could say ATOMICFORMULA (in the sense of Uniterm or Equal).

15:32:57 [Zakim]

+Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG; got it

15:33:38 [sandro]

csma: (reviewing diagram)

15:33:48 [sandro]

csma: "decalre" renamed to "variable"

15:34:04 [sandro]

... "implies" to "Conditional" (to match "Atomic")

15:34:14 [sandro]

... "ifpart", "thenpart".

15:34:49 [sandro]

Harold: we're had many versions of these names. hard to see all the consequences.....

15:36:04 [sandro]

Harold: I'd object to "ifpart"

15:36:21 [sandro]

csma: so we stick with the old names for WD1

15:36:46 [sandro]

csma: so back to "if" and "then" and "implies",

15:36:51 [sandro]

csma: and still "atomic"

15:37:01 [sandro]

csma: and 'declare' instead of "variable".

15:37:29 [sandro]

csma: I want it on the record that this was discussed and may be discussed again. we are in no way committed to this version.

15:37:44 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

15:37:55 [sandro]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:37:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room, Leora_Morgenstern

15:37:56 [Zakim]

meeting_room has Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG

15:38:23 [sandro]

Hassan, are you calling in?

15:40:22 [sandro]

csma is working on getting diagram out in e-mail.

15:40:27 [sandro]

vpn troubles.

15:40:47 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

15:42:29 [Hassan]

(Received - thanks Chris)

15:42:31 [sandro]

PROPOSED: in WD1 we'll publish this diagram, labeled as "still under discussion".

15:43:16 [sandro]

RESOLVED: Use diagram in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0134, in Core WD1, labeled "still under discussion"

15:47:23 [Hassan]

I can't hear

15:49:32 [sandro]

Topic: Feedback from Moz on Core

15:49:33 [Hassan]

Can someone post a pointer to the topic at hand if there is any (slides maybe?)

15:49:48 [sandro]

chris is working on it, Hassan, I think.

15:52:02 [sandro]

MikeDean: If there's a language designed for human consumption, than some people will implement it.

15:52:27 [sandro]

ChrisW: But it's not important in this WD.

15:52:28 [Harold]

The RIF Human Readable BNF Syntax was modeled on the OWL Abstract Syntax (http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/syntax.html) regarding its Lisp-like prefix notation and its use of whitespace as separator.

15:53:35 [sandro]

csma: the question is how to address comments about BNF.

15:53:50 [sandro]

want to call in , MoZ? we're talking about your comments.

15:54:00 [ChrisW]

slides are up on the wiki

15:54:24 [MoZ]

Zakim, what is the code ?

15:54:24 [Zakim]

the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ

15:54:29 [sandro]

csma: What is the proper way to deal with all these comments on the BNF?

15:55:07 [Hassan]

(thanks - again! - Chris...)

15:55:07 [sandro]

Harold: DateTime may be more controvercial?

15:55:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]

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15:55:39 [sandro]

Harold: We just wanted to just have something like OWL's S&AS abstract syntax.

15:55:43 [MoZ]

sandro, Zakim seems full for the moment...

15:55:57 [MoZ]

s/Zakim/Zakim France/

15:56:01 [sandro]

MoZ, press 0 for an operator and ask them to add you -- they can over-ride the limit.

15:56:15 [Deborah_Nichols]

Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif

15:56:17 [sandro]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:56:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room, Leora_Morgenstern, Hassan_Ait-Kaci

15:56:18 [Zakim]

meeting_room has Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG

15:56:31 [sandro]

Oh, Zakim France. Huh..... I dunno about that.

15:56:46 [MoZ]

sandro, tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99

15:56:50 [allen]

allen has joined #rif

15:57:09 [sandro]

csma: concrete syntax for types...... we could remove this, or more clearly label it as an examples.

15:57:28 [sandro]

michaelKifer: the reason for those is to show people how they play out, in a concrete way.

15:57:45 [BobMoore]

BobMoore has joined #rif

15:57:49 [Zakim]

+ +33.9.52.47.aaaa

15:57:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sorry --- the irc had died on me for a while --- can you tell me which slides we're looking at now?

15:57:55 [MoZ]

Zakim, aaaa is MoZ

15:57:57 [Zakim]

+MoZ; got it

15:58:00 [sandro]

csma: the dangers is that it looks so thorough that it looks like the real syntax.

15:58:33 [sandro]

DaveR: Didn't we just agree we were using XML Schema datatypes?

15:58:43 [Hassan]

Michael: please speek into your microphone - thanks.

15:59:21 [Hassan]

(I did mean "speak" not "peek" :-)

15:59:42 [sandro]

MK: note it as "just for illustrative purposes"

16:00:03 [sandro]

csma: that not everything has been fixed, or decided by WG

16:00:34 [sandro]

csma: Maybe we need to label in the draft which things are decided and which are not......

16:01:37 [Hassan]

zakim, who is on the phone?

16:01:37 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room, Leora_Morgenstern, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MoZ

16:01:39 [Zakim]

meeting_room has Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG

16:04:36 [sandro]

PROPOSED: The concrete human-readable syntax, described is BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).

16:05:37 [sandro]

Sandro: (sarcastically) maybe we should label the whole things as a "Working Draft"

16:06:00 [ChrisW]

hearing noise on phone

16:06:02 [sandro]

PROPOSED: The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).

16:06:32 [sandro]

csma: this resolution will let us skip many of the feedback comments.

16:07:46 [sandro]

RESOLVED: The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).

16:08:23 [sandro]

csma: so we can skip some bullets.

16:09:19 [sandro]

csma: reserved words?

16:09:31 [sandro]

mk: not a problem in the XML -- problem in HR syntax.

16:10:20 [sandro]

ACTION: Harold to fix ForAll, FORALL inconsistencies

16:10:22 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-244 - Fix ForAll, FORALL inconsistencies [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].

16:11:16 [ChrisW]

zakim, meeting_room contains Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG, DeborahN, LeoObrst

16:11:16 [Zakim]

Harold was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:17 [Zakim]

MichealK was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:20 [Zakim]

Andreas was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:21 [Zakim]

JosB was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:23 [Zakim]

JohnH was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:26 [Zakim]

DaveR was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:28 [Zakim]

BobM was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:29 [Zakim]

PaulV was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:31 [Zakim]

MikeD was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:32 [Zakim]

Sandro was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:33 [Zakim]

ChrisW was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:35 [Zakim]

csma was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:39 [Zakim]

AllenG was already listed in meeting_room, ChrisW

16:11:41 [Zakim]

+DeborahN, LeoObrst; got it

16:11:48 [sandro]

ACTION: mkifer to delete DateTime text and use reference XSD instead

16:11:49 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-245 - Delete DateTime text and use reference XSD instead [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].

16:12:58 [sandro]

mk: You don't need to type uniterms because you already know type from signature

16:13:06 [sandro]

moz: But can you narrow the type?

16:13:12 [sandro]

mk: what's the point?

16:13:40 [sandro]

moz/mdean: something like integer 1..17

16:14:08 [sandro]

mk: that's already in the languages, as sorts are defined

16:14:58 [Zakim]

-MoZ

16:15:25 [sandro]

points about xml syntax

16:15:59 [sandro]

dtd dropped.

16:16:27 [sandro]

default namespace rif = "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"

16:17:33 [Hassan]

(sandro - pls speak UP! :-)

16:18:26 [sandro]

sandro: we can get rid of the 01 with permission.

16:19:25 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rif

16:19:28 [sandro]

sandro: 01 is the month

16:19:52 [sandro]

PROPOSED: that xmlns in WD1 is "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"

16:20:04 [sandro]

PROPOSED: that xmlns in WD1 is "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#" (consdiered preliminary)

16:21:10 [sandro]

mk: How do namespaces change when standards change, eg for XML Schema Datatypes?

16:21:20 [sandro]

DaveR: There haven't been any new versions...

16:22:05 [sandro]

DaveR: in RDF, they decided not to change the namespace, even though they changed the spec --- or you could change the namespace.

16:22:29 [sandro]

DaveR: There's no painless answer -- there are tradeoffs.

16:22:56 [sandro]

Hassan: We'll need to face that someday -- some kind of versioning control.

16:23:42 [sandro]

Hassan: if there are examples in the draft, they should use the NS

16:23:55 [sandro]

Harold: No, they'll make it look too official.

16:24:30 [sandro]

DaveR: We could just state it wherever we mention the NS -- say that it's implied everywhere else.

16:25:15 [sandro]

RESOLVED: the xmlns to use for WD1 is "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"

16:27:23 [sandro]

ACTION Harold: change Core to include the xmlns namespace "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"

16:27:36 [sandro]

ACTION: Harold to change Core to include the xmlns namespace "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"

16:27:36 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-246 - Change Core to include the xmlns namespace \"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#\" [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].

16:28:31 [sandro]

s/Feedback from Moz on Core/Reader Feedback on Core/

16:28:50 [sandro]

"The sort name should be a URI"

16:29:29 [sandro]

DaveR: so use "xsd:integer" instead of "integer" in draft.

16:30:10 [ChrisW]

noise on the phone (Hassan are you muted?)

16:30:17 [sandro]

Jos: *can* be URIs or *must* be URIs?

16:31:10 [sandro]

mk: Why?

16:31:25 [sandro]

Sandro: It's simpler to *always* use URIs

16:31:43 [sandro]

Harold: "import" will need to turn things into URIs.

16:31:49 [sandro]

Jos: That's normal & natural

16:31:52 [AxelPolleres]

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16:32:58 [sandro]

PROPOSED: all sorts will be named with URIs

16:34:20 [sandro]

Chris: Are there use-defined sorts?

16:34:30 [sandro]

s/use/user/

16:34:45 [sandro]

mk: I have some language, X, and I have my own sort -- how do I exchange it with someone else.

16:35:48 [sandro]

csma: If I defined shopping cards and customers, etc, am I defining sorts???

16:35:58 [sandro]

mk: I don't think so..... (hesitantly)

16:37:15 [sandro]

ChrisW: i thought sorts were there for how symbols are categorized in dialects -- in which case requiring URIs is fine. I don't want to force URIs for user-defined types.

16:38:21 [sandro]

... If you want to load in some data model for your application, are you including as sorts ........

16:38:35 [sandro]

... you do treat user defined types as sorts?

16:38:44 [sandro]

mk: The document is silent about that.

16:39:02 [sandro]

csma: We said earlier that identifiers would be URIs if they were not local.

16:39:23 [sandro]

sandro: sounds like that should extend to sorts.

16:39:45 [sandro]

sandro: if they are local -- you don't interchange them....?

16:39:47 [Harold]

Sorted logic example -- Schubert's steamroller: http://www.inferenzsysteme.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/~walther/Paper/Schuberts_Steamroller_by_Many-Sorted_Resolution-AIJ-25-2-1985.pdf

16:40:06 [sandro]

csma: depends what you means by "local", cf, local variables.

16:40:21 [sandro]

mk: How about we say the sorts RIF-WG defines will be given URIs.

16:40:54 [sandro]

DaveR: Sorts as a mechanisms for extending syntaxes .... is different from application-specific types.

16:41:29 [sandro]

PROPOSED: Any sort defined in CORE MUST BE identified by a URI.

16:41:37 [sandro]

PROPOSED: Any sort defined in Core MUST BE identified by a URI.

16:41:45 [sandro]

RESOLVED: Any sort defined in Core MUST BE identified by a URI.

16:42:54 [sandro]

mdean: Will we use URIs or cURIs, so you can tell whether http is a prefix or a URI scheme?

16:43:38 [sandro]

mdean: so examples should say xsd:integer now.

16:44:46 [sandro]

ACTION: kifer to make sure sorts are named with curis

16:44:46 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-247 - Make sure sorts are named with curis [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].

16:47:58 [sandro]

[i3] done.

16:48:05 [sandro]

[i4] already done

16:49:03 [sandro]

[i5] what is the sort URI --- is it essenially the string (ie xsd:anyURI), or something else....

16:49:54 [sandro]

mk: I meant it in the sense of xs:anyURI -- an URI is a kind of string.

16:50:32 [sandro]

jos: then we don't have a way to use URI to refer to abstract objects.

16:51:41 [sandro]

DaveR: there's a big difference between "Jos" and Jos himself -- the signature of a predicate might say it pertains to strings or people....

16:52:47 [sandro]

Allen: (workshop)

16:53:14 [sandro]

Dave: There's some muddyness about things vs pages -- that's not what we're talking about here.

16:53:36 [sandro]

Jos: this is well understood in RDF (example of different URIs)

16:54:21 [sandro]

csma: (incomprehensible)

16:55:00 [sandro]

csma: a predicate will be in a boolean sort and if it's identified by a URI, then.....

16:55:35 [sandro]

predicate-name can be a URI

16:56:14 [sandro]

mk: constants that identify cars, constants that identify people, constants that idenfity pencils, .....

16:56:55 [sandro]

mk: a database is a bunch of a symbols --- it's in the mind of the creator of the DB that those symbols are associated with people, etc.

16:57:54 [Harold]

Following up on the discussion yesterday, and what Jos just indicated, the URIs http://example.org, http://example.org/ and http://example.org/index.html are all different as xsd:anyURIs but equivalent as RDF URIrefs.

16:57:57 [sandro]

DaveR: Suppose I'm writing a library of builtins. I'd write signatures for those functions. I want to create a strlen builtin, and some that apply to real-world things.

16:59:50 [sandro]

csma: first case sort is URI, second case sort is a Resource.

17:00:57 [sandro]

Dave: I think we need "Resource" as another sort.

17:02:26 [sandro]

mk: anyURI --- elements of the sort have internal structure (eg schema, path, host), and may have a method toString, and it can have a method "fetch". URI and String are different, but can be converted to each other.

17:02:38 [sandro]

Dave: Fine -- but that's all different from Resource.

17:03:01 [sandro]

mk: If you are using a URI to denote a person, that's your business, as in a db.

17:03:19 [sandro]

jos: Not true. In XSD an anyURI denotes itself, it cannot denote a person.

17:03:42 [sandro]

mk: but in a database it can.

17:03:49 [sandro]

Jos: We are not talking about databases here.

17:04:13 [AxelPolleres]

if I might hook in here, I think that making this difference between resource and URI-typed literals in RDF doesn't seem to be such a good idea and makes quite some troubles, IMO. but this just as a side note.

17:04:56 [Harold]

Besides proceeding from string-like anyURIs to equivalence URIrefs classes, we need also need 'dereference' URIrefs. The semantics for this dereferencing depends on the URI sort: for URIs denoting individuals, dereferencing just moves towards the semantic domain element; for URIs denoting another RIF Ruleset, dereferencing could be regarded as a importing it.

17:05:11 [AxelPolleres]

... well, but I see the point (of jos, dave)

17:05:39 [sandro]

Dave: example of RDF: "someURI"^^xs:anyURI vs someuri

17:06:07 [sandro]

Jos: I'm not sure we need a sort for this. These are just constants.

17:06:29 [sandro]

sandro: is there a universal sort?

17:06:43 [Harold]

Sandro, we considered to introduce a universal rif:Any sort.

17:06:56 [AxelPolleres]

owl:Thing?

17:07:03 [AxelPolleres]

maybe not....

17:07:35 [sandro]

mk: I we're making statements about Chris, and he has a URI, why can't I say he's an anyURI ?

17:07:55 [sandro]

Jos: This is the usual way. Abstract domain and concrete domain.

17:08:15 [Harold]

Axel, there was a discussion about 2 months ago with Dave about owl:Thing perhaps being rif:Any, but then he brought in rdf:Resource...

17:08:17 [sandro]

Jos: people are in abstract domain, concrete domain might have a URI in it.

17:08:55 [sandro]

csma: two separate discussions. 1 -- "URI" sort in core is xs:anyURI -- agreement **YES**

17:09:14 [sandro]

csma: 2 -- do we need a Resource sort some day -- unknown.

17:09:42 [AxelPolleres]

thanks harold, can you paste the uri to the thread maybe?

17:10:33 [sandro]

Dave: the sort here might be rdfs:Resource, but I'm not sure that's exactly what we need here.

17:10:51 [sandro]

Dave: but I think we're tabling this for now.

17:11:25 [sandro]

Jos: Why have anyURI in there? It's pretty obscure. Just have strings.

17:12:07 [Hassan]

For what it is worth, I agree with Jos...

17:12:16 [Harold]

Axel and Dave, I guess it was off-line, so if Dave is fine, I will search my mailbox and forward to you and everyone interested.

17:12:18 [sandro]

Sandro: it's just a subclass of string. Why bother?

17:12:29 [sandro]

MikeDean: Actually it's not a subclass of string.

17:12:40 [sandro]

Sandro: Ah, okay. Still, it' kind of obscure.

17:14:05 [sandro]

Jos: I think all the text about URIs in the Core is based on this misunderstanding.

17:14:27 [Harold]

In http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-datatypes anyURI is *a sibling of* string (it's not *a* string).

17:14:47 [sandro]

Chris: We just recently agreed that sorts in Core would be named with URIs..... is that related?

17:14:50 [sandro]

mk: No.

17:15:39 [sandro]

mk: it's a name which looks like a URI

17:16:21 [sandro]

csma: we need it if we have predicates that apply to URIs.

17:16:31 [sandro]

+1

17:17:29 [sandro]

mk: what sorts do predicate names come from? eg, maybe we want to restrict it to strings that look like URIs.

17:17:48 [Hassan]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#anyURI

17:18:18 [sandro]

Jos: anyURI has a value space

17:19:10 [sandro]

Jos: for naming predicated, we want strings, not anyURIs

17:20:19 [sandro]

Jos: just quote the RDF specs about what URIs are -- don't use anyURIs.

17:21:35 [sandro]

mk: we might want to allow, eg, integers as names of predicates, but not floating point numbers. so for this kind of thing, we want URIs here.

17:22:58 [sandro]

Jos: use URIReference as in RDF

17:23:57 [LeoraM]

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17:24:57 [Hassan]

Very good analysis Dave! I agree ...

17:25:15 [sandro]

Dave:we don't have "this is a predicate, and here is its identifier _____" ---- we're talking about the mechanism.

17:26:19 [Hassan]

To rephrase Dave's in French: "Nous mettons la charrue avant les boeufs!" ("we worry about the plow before the we have oxen!")

17:27:01 [sandro]

mk: we just need a lexical space, without any associated bagage of equality in the value space, etc.

17:27:55 [sandro]

mk: if you don't have sorts, then anything can be used in any contexts. Sorts allow us to say URIs can be used to name predicates, but for instance that floating point numbers cannot.

17:28:15 [allen]

check out section 6.4 of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#dfn-URI-reference

17:28:32 [Hassan]

don't URIs have a canonical form?

17:28:41 [sandro]

I don't think so, Hassan.

17:29:40 [Harold]

An equality theory for URI should look into rfc3986 "Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-6).

17:30:05 [DaveReynolds]

The XSD section is at: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#anyURI

17:30:09 [sandro]

Jos: typical use of sorts is just syntactic disambiguation -- however, we've also been using it for XML schema datatypes which suggests the value space semantics

17:31:59 [sandro]

Jos: Two URIs for the same person cannot be stated to be equal because of course the strings are not equal.

17:32:03 [sandro]

mk: ah ha!

17:32:25 [Hassan]

Sandro: isn't 6.2.2. Syntax-Based Normalization in the link Harold just posted defining such a canocical form?

17:32:43 [Hassan]

s/canocical/canonical/

17:32:54 [sandro]

sorry Hassan, I'm scribing.

17:33:43 [sandro]

or trying to scribe

17:35:45 [sandro]

csma: rif:URI as sub-sort of xs:string

17:36:07 [sandro]

Jos: but we need to be explicit about them being interpreted in some abstract domain.

17:36:49 [sandro]

mk: If we're are talking about the sort of integers, than all the equalities in xsd should be there.

17:37:08 [sandro]

csma: but not for strings.

17:38:14 [sandro]

s/strings/uris/

17:38:58 [sandro]

Jos: just have to be careful not to use any unsorted names.

17:39:21 [sandro]

mk: all constants are sorted.

17:39:28 [sandro]

mk: So.....

17:40:07 [sandro]

mk: we'll have to define our own URI sort, with the lexical space coming from RFC 3986.

17:41:09 [sandro]

Dave: When push comes to shove, we'll have two different things here, with different value space.

17:41:27 [sandro]

Chris: The difference between a URIRef and a Resource.

17:41:30 [sandro]

Dave: Yes.

17:41:51 [Harold]

Dave, isn't this like What is in the middle of "Paris?"

17:42:13 [sandro]

csma: let's raise an issue on this.

17:42:56 [Harold]

(The distinction between names and their denotations has been discussed in philosophy for a while.)

17:44:01 [sandro]

ACTION: Deborah to raise issue on rif:URI sort

17:44:03 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-248 - Raise issue on rif:URI sort [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-03-06].

17:44:35 [Harold]

s/"Paris?"/"Paris"?

17:44:48 [Harold]

s/"Paris?"/"Paris"?/

17:44:50 [sandro]

PROPOSED: replace uri with rif:URI in WD1 and link to issue.

17:45:11 [sandro]

RESOLVED: replace uri with rif:URI in WD1 and link to issue.

17:45:31 [Hassan]

when do we reconvene?

17:45:34 [sandro]

ACTION: mkifer to update Core with rif:URI and link to ussue.

17:45:35 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-249 - Update Core with rif:URI and link to ussue. [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].

17:45:39 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

17:45:48 [Hassan]

thanks - bon appetit

17:45:49 [sandro]

Reconvene at 1:30 (eastern(

17:45:55 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

17:45:59 [sandro]

topic: Lunch until 1:30

18:30:13 [Elisa]

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18:35:06 [johnhall]

scribe: johnhall

18:36:19 [johnhall]

ChrisW: start with DAve Reynolds i6

18:37:56 [johnhall]

ChrisW: integer and decimal make more sense?

18:38:08 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

18:38:58 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

18:39:03 [johnhall]

josb: just use integer and decimal

18:39:17 [johnhall]

sandro: can' just change the charter

18:39:31 [johnhall]

josb: charter says integer

18:39:42 [johnhall]

csma: at least int

18:40:16 [johnhall]

chrisW; charter required inte, is this proposal to support at least 'long'?

18:40:34 [johnhall]

chrisw: go back to charter and discuss adding others for next WD

18:41:10 [johnhall]

mk: implement long, have inplemented integer?

18:41:43 [johnhall]

daveR: integer/decimal pair is sensible

18:42:07 [johnhall]

mk: double or float exist and can be taken as decimal

18:42:24 [johnhall]

mk: ... in fact decimal requires lot of work

18:42:36 [johnhall]

chrisW: go back to charter

18:42:49 [johnhall]

josb: charter includes ' decimal'

18:43:04 [johnhall]

chrisW: anyon object to adding decimal?

18:43:26 [johnhall]

no objections

18:43:42 [johnhall]

daveR: also deal with float and double

18:43:56 [johnhall]

chrisW: resolved - leave draft as is?

18:44:02 [sandro]

RESOLVED: keep text as in draft, which changes datatype list from charter by replacing int with integer.

18:44:54 [johnhall]

csma: charter "other primitive sorts ..."

18:45:23 [johnhall]

DaveR i7

18:45:51 [johnhall]

DAveR; had not defined RuleSet

18:45:59 [johnhall]

... now we have

18:46:36 [johnhall]

DaveR: Issue in WD after second picture

18:47:14 [johnhall]

ChrisW: add placeholder "WG has still to discuss ordering"?

18:47:26 [johnhall]

josb: discussed in last F2F

18:47:38 [johnhall]

,,, decided on not ordering

18:48:05 [johnhall]

harold: 'ordered' could be XML attribute

18:48:46 [johnhall]

chrisW: action on MK and Harold to replace diagram and remove issue

18:49:29 [johnhall]

DAveR i8

18:49:41 [johnhall]

DAveR: for WD2

18:49:56 [ChrisW]

action: harold to delete the issue below the rule diagram

18:49:56 [rifbot]

Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel

18:50:16 [johnhall]

chrisW: postpone, also i9

18:50:26 [sandro]

rifbot, help?

18:50:26 [rifbot]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)

18:50:39 [sandro]

ACTION: Sandro to rest rifbot

18:50:40 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-250 - Rest rifbot [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-03-06].

18:51:03 [johnhall]

chrisW: go through document

18:51:04 [sandro]

ACTION: harold to delete the issue below the rule diagram

18:51:04 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-251 - Delete the issue below the rule diagram [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].

18:51:47 [johnhall]

chrisW: someone edit wiki page as we go?

18:52:38 [johnhall]

Harold volunteers

18:54:01 [johnhall]

chrisW: focus mainly on green highlighted issues and respond

18:54:19 [johnhall]

... address the first on for WD1?

18:54:46 [johnhall]

... ?

18:55:02 [AxelPolleres]

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18:56:46 [johnhall]

mk: cold say that dialiect is a logic-based language

18:57:01 [johnhall]

csma: prefer 'rule-based'

18:57:27 [johnhall]

s/cold/could

18:58:35 [AxelPolleres]

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18:59:22 [johnhall]

chrisW: remove 'rule-based'?

18:59:34 [johnhall]

... doesn't bother me

18:59:49 [johnhall]

harold: rule language?

19:00:24 [johnhall]

chrisW: 'rule-based' aand remove green

19:00:44 [johnhall]

second green issue - fix agreed

19:01:25 [johnhall]

first issue in section 2

19:02:06 [johnhall]

... The following paragraph should be elsewhere.

19:02:30 [johnhall]

chrisW: remove following paragraph

19:03:08 [johnhall]

correction - just remove para in green

19:04:07 [johnhall]

daveR: some ed corrections - e.g. wrong URIs and suggestions for rephrasing

19:04:35 [johnhall]

... para below links, strike para re. examples

19:05:39 [johnhall]

mk: in core - have we decided?

19:05:52 [johnhall]

chrisW: just strike examples?

19:06:11 [johnhall]

... taling about eaxmples as well as core

19:06:24 [johnhall]

s/taling/talking/

19:06:57 [johnhall]

chrisW: Delete blue text and presceding sentence

19:07:23 [johnhall]

chrisW: fix "to support the web ..."

19:07:32 [johnhall]

mk: will do off-line

19:07:58 [johnhall]

harold: the parenthetical remarks

19:09:11 [johnhall]

harold: remove "striped" and related issue

19:10:03 [johnhall]

first green issue in "SYNTAX"

19:10:17 [johnhall]

chrisw: remove reference to stripe skipping?

19:10:57 [johnhall]

csma: BNF is instantiated into concrete syntax

19:11:14 [johnhall]

... but we need to explian that it is not a transformation

19:11:28 [johnhall]

... does not belong in the WD anymore

19:11:47 [johnhall]

MK: ahreed that metamodel cannot be used to generate syntax

19:12:15 [johnhall]

chrisw: do not have to explian the algorithm

19:12:32 [johnhall]

csma: but may have to add some comments

19:14:29 [johnhall]

second green issue in SYNTAX

19:14:53 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

19:14:53 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-irc#T19-14-53

19:15:48 [sandro]

RRSAgent, make minutes

19:15:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html sandro

19:16:28 [Harold]

The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).

19:17:29 [johnhall]

chrisW: new para before the BNF box

19:18:18 [johnhall]

... and delete the green

19:18:39 [johnhall]

mk: it needs to be there

19:18:49 [johnhall]

csma: we know we need to fix it

19:19:12 [johnhall]

chrisW: if we have a BNF syntaxt it needs to be a good one

19:19:35 [johnhall]

next green issue "Currently CONSTNAME is undefined..."

19:20:06 [johnhall]

chrisW: move to next

19:20:32 [johnhall]

next green issue "Should we allow certain special characters ..."

19:21:09 [johnhall]

chrisW: can remove criticisms of BNF - we know it has to be fixed

19:21:40 [johnhall]

harold: anonymous veriables were rejected

19:22:14 [johnhall]

csma: we can deal with the action later

19:23:22 [johnhall]

... we can deal with issues and remove some of the colored text, but not all actions

19:23:50 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

19:27:31 [johnhall]

Semantic Structure

19:27:53 [johnhall]

csma: blues boxes to end notes

19:28:54 [johnhall]

chrisw: we should merge conditions with 'rule' section

19:29:32 [johnhall]

chrisw: found section names confusing

19:29:58 [johnhall]

harold: remove parentheses

19:30:54 [johnhall]

csma: cannot see different levels in headings

19:31:45 [johnhall]

chrisW: need to raise the levels

19:32:05 [johnhall]

... need to see what are subsections of what

19:33:19 [johnhall]

csma: can it be done offline?

19:35:35 [johnhall]

daveR: "Other primitive sorts that are likely to be incorporated include long, double, date, and duration."

19:35:44 [johnhall]

... delete 'duration'

19:36:03 [johnhall]

mk: is needed

19:36:39 [johnhall]

daveR: we will fixit but xsd:duration is not the answer

19:38:57 [johnhall]

Issue "Need to provide BNF and XML syntax for arrow/Boolean sorts here"

19:39:05 [johnhall]

MK: remove issue

19:39:31 [johnhall]

issue: "Need to decide if sort symbols are also coming from Const."

19:40:25 [johnhall]

harold: action 247

19:40:44 [allen]

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19:40:47 [johnhall]

mk: did not decide where to define sort URIs

19:41:41 [sandro]

CURIE reference seems to be http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-10-27-CURIE

19:42:18 [johnhall]

chrisW: delete all three green issues

19:44:10 [johnhall]

chrisW: we have sections on sorted and unsorted core

19:44:29 [johnhall]

csma: we decided some weeks ago to do this

19:45:06 [johnhall]

chrisW: unsorted core semantics are irrelevant

19:45:19 [johnhall]

... there only for explanation

19:46:00 [johnhall]

... requires a big fix to move from 'how to add sorted to unsorted'

19:46:30 [johnhall]

harold: add a subheading?

19:47:21 [johnhall]

... main heading 'Semantic Structures' applies only to first para

19:48:24 [johnhall]

ACTION: fix heading structure on MK

19:48:24 [rifbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - fix

19:49:00 [sandro]

ACTION: mkifer to fix heading structure

19:49:00 [rifbot]

Created ACTION-252 - Fix heading structure [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].

19:49:20 [johnhall]

mk: what are W3C onventions for headings?

19:49:31 [johnhall]

csma: have to check

19:49:54 [johnhall]

chrisW: Now in 'rules'

19:50:25 [johnhall]

"RIF RULE LANGUAGE"

19:51:01 [johnhall]

josb: resolved with RIF core to cover Horn logic, not higher order

19:52:06 [johnhall]

ACTION on MK to add words on predicates, functions constant symbols, disjoint sorts

19:52:41 [johnhall]

MOF/UML metamodel

19:53:41 [johnhall]

chrisW: .. extending the metamodel of positivre conditions is show below

19:54:35 [johnhall]

"SYNTAX"

19:55:49 [johnhall]

chrisW: delete text, update symbols in examples

19:56:09 [johnhall]

csma: and add words on "workin in progress ..."

20:03:10 [johnhall]

"The following extends the mapping in 'Positive Conditions' ..."

20:04:34 [johnhall]

chrisW: "The following extends the example syntax in Positive Conditions ..." and delete the DTD sentence

20:05:56 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

20:06:02 [johnhall]

"SEMANTICS"

20:06:56 [johnhall]

chrisW: blue text becomes end note

20:08:39 [johnhall]

"RIF Compatibility"

20:11:36 [johnhall]

chrisW: remove "here" in RIF-OWL and RIF-RDF compatibility

20:12:12 [johnhall]

WIKI-TR diagnostics

20:12:31 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

20:12:31 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room

20:12:32 [Zakim]

meeting_room has DeborahN, LeoObrst

20:12:44 [Zakim]

+Elisa_Kendall

20:12:54 [ChrisW]

hassan, are you there now?

20:17:50 [LeoraM]

Hassan got out around 45 minutes ago, I think ...

20:17:58 [LeoraM]

I got off the phone around 20 minutes ago or so ...

20:18:10 [LeoraM]

It was getting hard to follow ...

20:37:24 [DaveReynolds]

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20:44:00 [Zakim]

+??P0

20:44:30 [Zakim]

-??P0

20:47:30 [Zakim]

+Elisa_Kendall

20:56:19 [Elisa]

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21:02:25 [johnhall]

chrisW: actions to be completed by ...?

21:02:36 [johnhall]

josb: done

21:02:48 [Zakim]

+??P3

21:02:50 [johnhall]

harold: at least one week

21:03:06 [johnhall]

chrisw: can work tomorrow on this

21:03:13 [LeoraM]

zakim, ??P3 is me

21:03:13 [Zakim]

+LeoraM; got it

21:03:19 [johnhall]

... we also have architecture and RIFRAF

21:03:47 [johnhall]

chrisW: new UML diagrams?

21:03:53 [johnhall]

harold: not yet

21:04:06 [johnhall]

MK: not much time next week

21:04:58 [johnhall]

csma: telecon 2 weeks from now?

21:05:05 [johnhall]

MK: March 16

21:05:17 [johnhall]

csma: for new version

21:05:32 [johnhall]

chrisw: what kind of review to accept WD?

21:06:13 [johnhall]

... for example - vote now to accept subject to harold and michael completing actions?

21:06:37 [johnhall]

DaveR: see frozen doc and vote at telecon

21:07:00 [johnhall]

chrisw: telecon on 27 March?

21:07:13 [johnhall]

... review is go/no go

21:07:30 [johnhall]

... prefer not another round

21:07:46 [johnhall]

... can accept subject to typos

21:08:01 [johnhall]

csma: what would cause "no"?

21:08:16 [johnhall]

chrisW: actions unfulfilled

21:08:25 [johnhall]

... no new issues

21:09:07 [johnhall]

... working draft to let the world know what we are doing

21:09:16 [sandro]

PROPOSED: to publish Core WD1, pending actions performed as discussed so far this meeting.

21:09:35 [johnhall]

josb: new material - 2 paras

21:09:56 [johnhall]

harold: fix in f2f

21:10:22 [johnhall]

csma: have modified metamodel

21:10:30 [johnhall]

... whole doc did change

21:10:42 [johnhall]

chrisW: but changes agreed

21:10:47 [sandro]

PROPOSED: to publish Core WD1, if ACTIONS assigned in this meeting so far are done to our satisfaction. (That is, no new issues should arise to block publication of Core WD1)

21:11:13 [johnhall]

csma: clarification - if actions are done, accept document?

21:11:30 [johnhall]

chrisW: yes

21:12:09 [johnhall]

csma: actions done to WG's satisfaction

21:12:50 [sandro]

RESOLVED: to publish Core WD1, if ACTIONS assigned in this meeting so far are done to our satisfaction. (That is, no new issues should arise to block publication of Core WD1)

21:12:52 [johnhall]

chrisw: any objections to resolution?

21:12:56 [johnhall]

RESOLVED

21:13:19 [johnhall]

chrisw: new draft for March 16, one week for review

21:13:31 [sandro]

expected vote to publish on the 27th.

21:13:34 [johnhall]

... vote to publish March 27

21:18:20 [DaveReynolds]

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21:20:09 [PaulVincent]

scribe: PaulVincent

21:20:44 [PaulVincent]

Starting breakout on external data models...

21:23:25 [MoZ]

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21:23:50 [PaulVincent]

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21:23:59 [PaulVincent]

scribe: PaulVincent

21:24:18 [PaulVincent]

External Data Model breakout

21:24:34 [PaulVincent]

<apologies for delay in scribing - restarted IRC>

21:24:54 [PaulVincent]

Mike: does "external" include OWL etc? yes

21:25:36 [PaulVincent]

Jos: what vocabs are required and how much is required in RIF?

21:26:12 [PaulVincent]

Jos: need for vocab translation as part of RIF role?

21:27:07 [PaulVincent]

Christian: example: shopping cart domain + rules to be interchanged reference domain object model - do they use the XML schema directly or translate to a form for interchange?

21:29:04 [PaulVincent]

Christian: one option is just to adopt a single data model used in interchange -- so burden is on implementer / translation which implies a new translator for each application

21:29:34 [PaulVincent]

Jos: different (use) cases require different treatments for vocabularies

21:30:07 [PaulVincent]

Mike: XML schema can be much harder than OWL/RDF for translators

21:33:17 [PaulVincent]

Christian: an XML schema representing a data model [eg ACORD insurance model supported by rule tools from ILOG and Fair Isaac]

21:33:55 [PaulVincent]

Paul: XML schema for domain specific languages represents a data model + vocabulary for the domain

21:34:31 [PaulVincent]

Reference: http://www.acord.org/home/home.aspx for ACORD / insurance industry

21:35:25 [PaulVincent]

Jos: lightweight approach: rules use vocab with particular URIs relevant to a schema

21:36:13 [PaulVincent]

Christian: problem with this approach: does not fit model ie predicates

21:39:31 [PaulVincent]

Paul: existing BREs use an object mapping mechanism to map disparate object/data/other data models to an OO model referenced by rules

21:40:38 [PaulVincent]

Christian: qu how to map a relational (data ) model to the RIF Condition Metamodel

21:41:00 [PaulVincent]

Andreas: Can use graph-directed model to represent other models

21:41:47 [PaulVincent]

Jos: OWL-DL maps to relational model

21:42:34 [PaulVincent]

Jos: RDF is not just a graph...

21:43:42 [PaulVincent]

Christian: what is OWL compatibility for RIF? OWL and RDF data is a part of the overall problem

21:44:39 [PaulVincent]

Christian: most industry-specific models are relational and therefore can map to the RIF Condition Language metamodel

21:45:15 [PaulVincent]

Mike: ... but the metamodel displayed does not go into the detail for data model issues

21:45:44 [PaulVincent]

Christian: how does RIF hook into externally defined data models?

21:46:10 [PaulVincent]

Christian: mapping an object model into a standardized model may be too expensive from a translator perspective

21:46:36 [PaulVincent]

<Christian waves hands in front of screen>

21:47:11 [PaulVincent]

Christian: ... or can users plug in own data models

21:47:30 [PaulVincent]

Jos: They can already plug in their own models via URIs

21:50:53 [PaulVincent]

Christian: plug-in issue is that the plug-in interpreter takes on the cost of interpretation and needs to be the same on both provider and consumer of RIF

21:51:49 [Hassan]

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21:52:05 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

21:54:09 [PaulVincent]

Correction: Christian: enforcement of a relational versus OO versus other model will be a translation issue

21:55:17 [PaulVincent]

Jos: these concerns re Core may be pointless as Core is of limited practicability

21:55:43 [PaulVincent]

Christian: ... but principles apply to all dialects

21:56:57 [PaulVincent]

Christian: assumption that there will be 2 customers who often share data model types

21:58:01 [PaulVincent]

Andreas: RDF - data and meaning layers - may be way to go here

22:02:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]

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22:02:32 [PaulVincent]

John: issue is that domain specific languages need to be usable directly in order to allow adoption

22:02:45 [Zakim]

-LeoraM

22:04:31 [johnhall]

That wasn't quite my concern. I said it would be unfortunate if RIF actually precluded organizations from using solutions already in place.

22:04:45 [PaulVincent]

Jos: which dialects require this issue

22:08:07 [PaulVincent]

Christian: statement "if they have the same object model they don't need RIF" is wrong as they still need to interchange rules

22:09:05 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

22:09:13 [PaulVincent]

Jos: ... but you also need things like variables

22:12:05 [Hassan]

q+

22:12:12 [Hassan]

q-

22:12:58 [PaulVincent]

Allen: is this RIF Core? Phase 2?

22:15:11 [PaulVincent]

Allen: a new requirement not in RIF at present

22:20:42 [PaulVincent]

Christian: need to enumerate mappings for external data

22:21:32 [PaulVincent]

Mike: note even several mappings for RDF and tools like JESS

22:24:14 [PaulVincent]

Christian: Example: XBRL for financial reporting: have a complex structure, interchange rules as text

22:33:44 [PaulVincent]

Jos: propose: 2 dimensions; type of vocab language + degree of integration in RIF

22:36:17 [PaulVincent]

Christian: how do we define compliance if there is a plug-in environment

22:39:57 [Zakim]

-Elisa_Kendall

22:42:15 [LeoraM]

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22:42:37 [LeoraM]

+1 with Mike Dean's suggestion to ground this in a concrete example

22:43:06 [PaulVincent]

Jos: RDFs requirements are needed

22:43:17 [LeoraM]

+1 also to instantiating the use cases

22:43:30 [PaulVincent]

Mike: need to ground requirements in expanding use cases

22:45:35 [PaulVincent]

<breakout sessions end; main session reconvenes>

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22:47:42 [PaulVincent]

Summary by Jos of breakout for external data models

22:48:14 [PaulVincent]

1. Definition of external data models: data structure / vocab eg XML schema or OWL

22:48:46 [PaulVincent]

2. How would data structure be represented in RIF rules

22:49:25 [PaulVincent]

3. Proposed: plug-in for external data models

22:50:13 [PaulVincent]

4. Should not focus on RIF Core limitations ie other dialects may require OO data structures

22:50:32 [PaulVincent]

5. May need special treatments for RDFS and OWL

22:51:06 [PaulVincent]

6. Working group needs some requirements for external data models use in RIF

22:52:13 [PaulVincent]

3. correction: proposal was to indicate range of options from plug-in for arbitrary models to mapping everything to a single Core data model

22:53:56 [allen]

dru

22:54:45 [PaulVincent]

Dave: does this include option of eg using a single a URI to reference to what you mean eg complex types

22:54:46 [allen]

McCandless, Dru

22:55:03 [sandro]

thanks.

22:55:58 [PaulVincent]

Dave: coverage of RDF and XML should cover most options

22:56:26 [PaulVincent]

Christian: need examples to better understand mapping needs

22:58:12 [sandro]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif2-minutes.html RIF Syntax Breakout

22:58:19 [PaulVincent]

Summary by Chris of the breakout for syntax

23:00:03 [PaulVincent]

1. Different paradigms between metamodels and ASN abstract syntax - metamodel includes items not in syntax

23:01:23 [PaulVincent]

2. Sandro can now generate near-UML diagrams from ASN06 so publication should specify these as "not metamodel"

23:01:55 [PaulVincent]

3. From ASN06 will generate XML schema as XML syntax specification

23:02:09 [PaulVincent]

4. Need for human-readable presentation syntax

23:02:16 [sandro]

PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that it's not a metamodel.

23:02:25 [Hassan]

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23:02:36 [sandro]

PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that these UML diagrams are not metamodels

23:04:57 [PaulVincent]

5. Discussion on presentation syntaxes - Sandro will provide some examples to be generated from ASN06 (as "RIF Presentation Syntax")

23:06:05 [PaulVincent]

Hassan: is there a BNF/grammar for ASN06 - yes - so Hassan can implement an XML output too

23:07:42 [sandro]

PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that these UML diagrams are not metamodels

23:08:55 [Hassan]

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23:08:57 [PaulVincent]

Hassan: need semantics for ASN to be able to discuss

23:09:22 [PaulVincent]

Chris: abstract syntax is not normative

23:11:36 [sandro]

Chris: I want these not to confuse people used to metamodels.

23:11:47 [sandro]

Chris: I want them not to find them lacking.

23:12:14 [sandro]

csma: These are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation.

23:13:34 [sandro]

Sandro: it's not all of UML, but we what UML we use should be correct.

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23:14:45 [sandro]

PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax. We'll say "these are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation".

23:14:53 [sandro]

RESOLVED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax. We'll say "these are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation".

23:15:24 [sandro]

PROPOSED: we need a presentation syntax

23:16:25 [PaulVincent]

Christian: viewing a RIF Presentation Syntax example: would keep roles not classes

23:18:10 [sandro]

PROPOSED: we need a presentation syntax -- to be used for examples and in the specification of the semantics.

23:18:21 [PaulVincent]

Harold: Presentation Syntax is WD2 and later

23:20:03 [PaulVincent]

Chris: this is not normative at this point in time (although examples etc in future will need a presentation syntax)

23:20:17 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

23:20:20 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

23:20:25 [PaulVincent]

<end of F2F5 day2>

23:21:07 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

23:21:07 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-irc#T23-21-07

23:21:12 [csma]

zakim, who is on the phone?

23:21:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see meeting_room

23:21:13 [Zakim]

meeting_room has DeborahN, LeoObrst

23:21:45 [Zakim]

-meeting_room

23:21:46 [Zakim]

SW_RIF(F2F)8:00AM has ended

23:21:47 [Zakim]

Attendees were Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Leora_Morgenstern, DeborahN, +33.9.52.47.aaaa, MoZ,

23:21:49 [Zakim]

... LeoObrst, Elisa_Kendall, LeoraM

23:23:12 [csma]

rrsagent, make minutes

23:23:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html csma

23:26:38 [csma]

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