12:47:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:47:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc
12:48:02 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
12:48:12 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfxhtml
12:48:12 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
12:48:21 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
12:49:01 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-09-19 http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html
12:57:58 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0028.html
12:58:19 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: 25 Sep RDFXHTML TF Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0028.html
13:02:20 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:02:27 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:02:39 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:02:39 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:02:40 <Zakim> +Steven
13:03:51 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:04:29 <Zakim> +EliasT
13:05:15 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:05:22 <benadida> hey there, just dialing in now
13:05:39 <Zakim> +??P1
13:05:46 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
13:05:46 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
13:05:58 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #htmltf
13:07:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:07:44 <benadida> zakim, i am IPcaller
13:07:44 <Zakim> ok, benadida, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
13:08:34 <RalphS> zakim, who's on the call?
13:08:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, EliasT, MarkB_, [IPcaller]
13:08:53 <EliasT> Zakim, IPCaller is benadida
13:08:53 <Zakim> +benadida; got it
13:08:53 <RalphS> zakim, ipcaller is Ben
13:08:54 <Zakim> sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'
13:08:59 <RalphS> Topic: Review of Action Items
13:09:09 <benadida> action items: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0021
13:09:16 <RalphS> action -1
13:09:34 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to find Elias's question and link to relevant discussion in the past [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
13:09:42 <RalphS> -- done
13:10:28 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0024.html updated the issues list with comments from Elias and Lee [Ben 2006-09-22]
13:11:17 <benadida> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0025.html
13:11:44 <RalphS> Ben: DanC commented too
13:11:58 <RalphS> ... we have to be sure everyone agrees that this is what HTML means
13:12:22 <RalphS> ... the point is that if we use the RDFa rules on existing HTML it should not cause wierd triples or triples not intended by the author
13:12:58 <RalphS> Ben: we can continue to discuss this
13:13:52 <MarkB_> zakim, q+
13:13:53 <Zakim> I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:14:47 <RalphS> Ralph: two questions -- that HTML intended these triples in the past and that some spec documents that HTML intends these triples
13:15:27 <RalphS> Mark: though we cannot retrospectively add semantics, now that we are talking about modules we have additional opportunities
13:16:12 <RalphS> ... so it may be easier to answer DanC's question; in the case of a module we don't have control over the whole language but we can look at a way to flag documents
13:16:29 <Steven> Steven has left #htmltf
13:16:33 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to put together Lee and Elias's emails into the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
13:16:46 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
13:16:57 <benadida> --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Sep/0024.html
13:17:28 <RalphS> action -2
13:18:05 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:19:47 <RalphS> -- continues
13:21:21 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven
13:21:50 <RalphS> ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]
13:21:55 <RalphS> -- done
13:22:07 <RalphS> Steven: this was supposed to be in preparation for the HTML WG f2f
13:22:16 <RalphS> action -5
13:22:26 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:22:27 <RalphS> -- continues
13:22:48 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
13:22:48 <RalphS> -- continues
13:22:58 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:22:58 <RalphS> -- continues
13:22:58 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:22:58 <RalphS> -- continues
13:23:01 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:23:28 <RalphS> Mark: this seems to be more related to HTML WG than to the TF
13:23:46 <RalphS> ... schneegans is using schemas to validate, so the point was to note the existence of our schemas
13:24:26 <RalphS> Ben: we'd hoped to get them to try validating using Mark's XHTML 1.1 module
13:24:45 <RalphS> Mark: but they seem to be using RelaxNG, contrary to what I'd remembered
13:25:08 <RalphS> Ralph: it's worth sending even the 1-line message to see if we can get them engaged directly
13:25:26 <RalphS> Mark: correction, they are using XML Schemas.  I will send the 1-line message
13:26:07 <RalphS> Topic: Better b-node support?
13:26:22 <RalphS> Ben: Ivan brought this up; if you want a list of bibtex references on a page
13:26:39 <RalphS> ... often you really don't want to name the nodes; e.g. author nodes
13:27:14 <RalphS> ... you'd like to be able to copy & paste a chunk of HTML without having to make unique [local] IDs
13:27:29 <RalphS> ... how serious a problem do we think this is?
13:27:29 <RalphS> ... do we want more support for bnodes?
13:27:40 <RalphS> ... people who engage in complex modelling often want bnodes
13:27:58 <RalphS> ... but maybe RDFa is not a place for complex graphs
13:28:16 <RalphS> q+ to note that SWD WG is supposed to produce a Requirements Document
13:29:01 <RalphS> Mark: I couldn't quite get what it was that Ivan was saying that we could not do
13:29:08 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to note that SWD WG is supposed to produce a Requirements Document
13:30:05 <MarkB_> zakim, q+
13:30:05 <Zakim> I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:30:44 <RalphS> Ralph: we can't resolve this bnode question without the SWD WG, and the SWD WG has a RDFa Requirements document on its schedule
13:31:48 <RalphS> Mark: how does RDF/XML handle this?
13:32:19 <benadida> :DJDKWBDADIH05 a bibtex:Article;
13:32:32 <RalphS> Ralph: rdf:nodeID but I want to see a full example from Ivan
13:33:50 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support
13:35:17 <RalphS> Mark: there's also a question of what we're comparing against
13:35:35 <RalphS> Topic: Building Test Documents
13:36:21 <RalphS> Ben: I'm hoping that Elias and other implementors will send items for an FAQ
13:36:31 <RalphS> Elias: are you thinking of a WiKi?
13:36:40 <RalphS> Ben: on the rdfinfo site, but perhaps a WG Note
13:37:19 <RalphS> Ralph: I think a WiKi is a good idea
13:38:15 <RalphS> Elias: I'm happy to start a page on esw.w3.org
13:38:49 <RalphS> ... my overall feeling is that there is an overall lack of clarity in our documents and they are stale
13:39:59 <RalphS> Ralph: open questions should be on our issues list
13:40:32 <RalphS> Elias: let's give priority to publishing updated documents
13:41:30 <EliasT> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2006Sep/0000.html
13:42:19 <EliasT> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter#sec2
13:43:53 <RalphS> Topic: Complete Specification of RDFa; RDFa Syntax Document?
13:44:12 <RalphS> Ben: previously we had considered that the XHTML2 document would contain the normative specification of RDFa
13:44:31 <RalphS> ... but currently there is a lot of detail that is not present in the XHTML2 draft
13:44:46 <RalphS> ... the syntax document is out of date
13:44:56 <RalphS> ... has the HTML WG integrated everything it intends to integrate?
13:45:23 <RalphS> Steve: I think the best thing is that XHTML2 include RDFa by reference and there is a separate RDFa document
13:45:23 <RalphS> ... so RDFa is defined as a module in itself
13:45:43 <RalphS> ... so others can also refer to the RDFa module
13:46:13 <EliasT> q+ Steven, RDFa will be a module?
13:46:14 <RalphS> ... from a visibility point of view I think it is a good idea to keep a separate RDFa syntax document
13:46:24 <RalphS> Mark: I agree with Steven
13:46:31 <EliasT> q+ to Steven, RDFa will be a module?
13:46:55 <RalphS> ... as we're working on defining an XHTML 1.1 Modularization Module we may be able to incorporate this in XHTML2 without change
13:47:08 <RalphS> q+ to speak to priorities
13:47:31 <Zakim> EliasT, you wanted to Steven, RDFa will be a module?
13:47:42 <RalphS> Elias: is RDFa not going to be native in XHTML2 ?
13:48:03 <RalphS> Steven: yes, RDFa will be native in XHTML2.  As far as I am concerned XHTML2 is the true target.
13:48:13 <RalphS> ... there have been requests to back-port it to XHTML 1.1
13:48:23 <RalphS> Ben: a lot of XHTML2 is defined using XHTML modularization
13:48:29 <RalphS> Steven: correct but we are redoing the modules for XHTML2
13:48:46 <RalphS> Ben: but "module" does not mean "optional"
13:49:18 <RalphS> Steven: correct; XHTML2 core will be a set of modules
13:49:18 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to speak to priorities
13:51:03 <RalphS> Steven: I had claimed a while ago that what we want to do in XHTML 1.1 was not possible without changes to XHTML 1.1 but Shane pointed out a way to permit this with a 1-line change
13:51:27 <MarkB_> s/XHTML 1.1/XHTML Modularisation 1.1/
13:51:36 <MarkB_> s/XHTML 1.1/XHTML Modularisation 1.1/
13:51:57 <RalphS> Ralph: but which do we want to do first? the XHTML2 module or the XHTML 1.1 module?
13:52:13 <RalphS> Steven: they will be the same thing, though the implementation of the modularization is different
13:52:58 <RalphS> Mark: I vote for focussing attention on an XHTML 1.1 module and everything associated with that
13:53:19 <RalphS> ... make sure it all works with XHTML 1.1, including Ben's bookmarklet
13:53:19 <RalphS> ... get the whole story right on "current" documents
13:53:35 <RalphS> ... once the XHTML 1.1 module is done then it will be easy to import that into XHTML 2
13:53:50 <RalphS> ... timing-wise it is important to keep the current momentum from implementors going
13:54:10 <RalphS> ... so clarifying the discrepancies between our two documents is an important part of this
13:55:01 <RalphS> Ralph: so an XHTML 1.1 RDFa module specification could be the separate document that Steven suggests
13:55:16 <RalphS> Mark: there is no need for XHTML2 to be on the critical path for RDFa
13:55:21 <RalphS> Ralph: I agree
13:56:02 <RalphS> Ben: we had previously agreed that the RDFa syntax document would be obsoleted and the XHTML2 spec would contain everything
13:56:04 <RalphS> ... that's why we let the RDFa syntax document go stale
13:56:17 <RalphS> ... but I agree with the new direction to focus on an XHTML 1.1 module
13:56:53 <RalphS> Elias: it is confusing that the word "module" means different things between XHTML1 and XHTML2
13:56:59 <MarkB_> zakim, q+ to try to answer Elias' question on 'modules'.
13:56:59 <Zakim> I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue
13:57:14 <RalphS> q+ to ask about future telecon schedule
13:57:39 <RalphS> Elias: we should work out the problems in the XHTML 1.1
13:58:36 <RalphS> Topic: Telecon Time
13:58:46 <RalphS> Ben: will this time on Mondays be acceptable until at least October 9?
13:58:49 <RalphS> Mark, Elias, Ralph: ok
13:59:26 <RalphS> [gotta go to next telecon; someone please scribe remaining important points]
13:59:29 <Zakim> -Ralph
13:59:58 <benadida> Ben: RDFa syntax to be XML generic, or XHTML specific?
14:00:21 <benadida> MarkB: modularization can be used for generic XML, I think
14:00:30 <benadida> Steven: that's right
14:00:38 <benadida> ... as long as the host language uses modules
14:00:59 <benadida> MarkB: so, it depends on how generic we think of modularization
14:01:16 <benadida> ... we would like RDFa to be usable anywhere, but we're defining it as an XHTML module.
14:01:39 <benadida> ... the spec we're dealing with is XHTML Modularization 1.1, not XHTML 1.1
14:01:51 <benadida> ... XHTML 1.2 could be built using the techniques of XHTML Modularization 1.1
14:02:37 <benadida> ... because some folks are using schemas to validate XHTML, they're effectively creating a new language.
14:02:56 <benadida> Steven: modularization includes rules about naming. XHTML = certain required modules
14:06:19 <benadida> Ben: I think we should focus on XHTML in the RDFa Syntax
14:06:22 <benadida> Mark: agreed
14:09:00 <EliasT> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter#sec2
14:15:53 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF
14:17:27 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:17:28 <Zakim> -EliasT
14:17:30 <Zakim> -benadida
14:17:31 <Zakim> -Steven
14:17:32 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:17:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, EliasT, MarkB_, benadida
14:17:38 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:17:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven
14:17:49 <benadida> it's that simple isn't it? I keep forgetting :)
14:18:18 <Steven> almost :-)
14:18:21 <Steven> Chair: Ben
14:18:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:18:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven
14:19:59 <Steven> s/[gotta go to next telecon; someone please scribe remaining important points]/Scribenick: benadida/
14:20:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:20:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-minutes.html Steven
14:21:00 <Steven> rrsagent, bye
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-actions.rdf :
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [3]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-18-05
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben prepare a sample XHTML2 document for Steven [4]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-21-21
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [6]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-26
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [7]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-48
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [8]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-58
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [9]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-22-58-2
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [10]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-23-01
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben mail a full example of the need for bnode support [11]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T13-33-50
14:21:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put together a work plan for the next 6-9 months of the TF [12]
14:21:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-htmltf-irc#T14-15-53
14:21:02 <Steven> zakim, bye
14:21:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf