See also: IRC log, previous 2006-08-01
<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/
<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-forms/2006JulSep/0118.html
Steven regrets for 3 calls
ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
Steven: worried that using @CLASS will make some people upset
Ben: maybe if we have a way to include MFs, it will be okay
Steven: CSS people may feel (rightly or
wrongly) thta the @CLASS attribute is theirs
... CSS people are the biggest critics of XML namespaces / semantic web
Ben: using namespaced classes might be a problem for CSS folks until they support namespaces
Steven: it depends, the ':' was chosen because
it's a valid XML string
... in HTML, if you see something with a colon, it's really that string
... in CSS, you can only escape the ':', cause no concept of namespaces
Ben: what about CSS2?
Mark: yes
Steven: an extension around CSS2 that is de-facto standard
Mark: 2.1 brings extensions of 2.0 together
Steven: actually, it's CSS 3
... the CSS3 namespace
proposal is actually dated 1999
[Ralph arrives]
<RalphS> aplogies; I lost track of the day & time today!
<Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-20011113/#typenmsp
Mark: it's only the elements and attributes names that are namespaced
Steven: CSS does not have a concept of namespaced attribute value, like in @CLASS
Ben: so there's no spec on the table that lets @CLASS names in CSS have namespaces?
Steven: correct, no namespaced values at all on the table for CSS
Mark: it could be the case that people have
written class names that contain colons
... so RDFa would create triples in such cases
... this is fine if it was intended by the author
... but if it was used pre-RDFa, the author may not have intended it
... we need to start with what we think is right and persuade others
Ben: they're saying the class attribute is a
type
... and as we're on the Web we want these to have namespaced values
<MarkB_> (Mark is agreeing with Ben's earlier, rather forthright, point, that we should begin with what we think is right for "the web, XHTML, authors and RDF".)
Ben: I hear Steven worried about the potential backlash from others, not about the technical correctness
Steven: I see advantages and disadvantages. I'd rather not irritate people
Mark: but if we don't do namespaced values in class, we will irritate others who do think they've done the right thing [with namespaces]
ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]
Ben: it's important to have a validation story
ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
Ben: I've made some progress on this
ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]
Ben: in progress; feel free to track hgrddl-xhtml1
... the nice thing about the DOM implementations are that some browers will
fixup non-wellformed XHTML so that we may still be able to use it
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]
ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
Steven: there is a CURIE editors'
draft [member-only] currently in discussion in the HTML WG
... the shortname is not yet approved
... Shane produced this editors' draft along with Mark
... we need to decide whether to keep pushing this
<RalphS> [argh, this editors' draft claims to be a Working Draft; see Style for Group-internal Drafts]
Ben: should we reserve something for the
anonymous namespace?
... something for bnodes; unexported names
Mark: maybe there's something in N3 we could borrow for section 3?
Steven: the HTML WG shouldn't publish this draft until the RDF-in-XHTML task force agrees it's a good idea
Ralph: where does the editors' draft lie in the HTMLWG agenda?
Steven: There are no objections within the HTML
WG
... Mark, I, and one other are the primary parties with RDF interest
Ralph: are CURIEs a solution for anything else the HTML WG is dealing with, or are they viewed as only a solution for RDFa?
Steven: more the latter
Mark: though CURIEs could also solve problems with RDF/XML, namely that QNames can't express all URIs
Ralph: it will be a heavy debate but I would like to see the discussion continue
Ben: the CURIE syntax may need more work but at
the end of the day it is solving an important issue
... I'd like to move forward with it while we're in the proposal stage
... solves bnodes, solves URIs that can't be done with QNames
... square bracket notation is familiar to some people
... in 80% of the cases, CURIEs can be treated just like QNames
Mark: even if CURIEs were defined to be equal to QNames, it would be better to have that level of indirection so you can explain all the restrictions
Ben: we do have code that implements CURIE parsing and it seems to work
Steven: HTML WG has a face-to-face scheduled for 11 Sep. Could plan to publish CURIE WD shortly after that f2f
ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
Ben: 2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1 profile work-in-progress
Ralph: please claim authorship for hgrddl-xhtml1 :)
Ben: this is a nice place to build in some
default behavior that is not appropriate to put into XHTML or RDFa
... e.g. rel='next' is transformed to rel='xhtml:next'
... I also included an example using the class= attribute
... I'm hoping to get informed feedback from people by showing these
examples
Mark: says "would become" -- actually, the
class= attribute is removed
... seems you'd want to show the N3 next
Ben: perhaps "has the transform"; what we want
to see is people commenting on the transform
... I'm suggesting that the decisions we make for class= and role= are part
of the hgrddl-xhtml profile
Mark: I've been thinking of class= as analogous
to the N3 syntax "<> a Foo".
... though SVG does also use class=
Ben: GRDDL WG has its initial meeting
tomorrow
... I plan to continue working on this profile and write some code, to use as
a basis for discussion
Mark: is it worth putting a real example in?
Ben: yes, absolutely
Mark: such as a vCard
Steven: we need to answer Dan's comment about following your nose
ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
Steven: may require me to make some edits to the XHTML namespace document as well
Ben: I will mention that in my response
[adjourned]