W3C

RDFa Taskforce weekly teleconference

8 Aug 2006

Agenda

See also: IRC log, previous 2006-08-01

Attendees

Present
Ben Adida, Steven Pemberton, Mark Birbeck, Ralph Swick
Regrets
Elias
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ben, Ralph

Contents


<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/

<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-forms/2006JulSep/0118.html

Steven regrets for 3 calls

Action Review

ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

Steven: worried that using @CLASS will make some people upset

Ben: maybe if we have a way to include MFs, it will be okay

Steven: CSS people may feel (rightly or wrongly) thta the @CLASS attribute is theirs
... CSS people are the biggest critics of XML namespaces / semantic web

Ben: using namespaced classes might be a problem for CSS folks until they support namespaces

Steven: it depends, the ':' was chosen because it's a valid XML string
... in HTML, if you see something with a colon, it's really that string
... in CSS, you can only escape the ':', cause no concept of namespaces

Ben: what about CSS2?

Mark: yes

Steven: an extension around CSS2 that is de-facto standard

Mark: 2.1 brings extensions of 2.0 together

Steven: actually, it's CSS 3
... the CSS3 namespace proposal is actually dated 1999

[Ralph arrives]

<RalphS> aplogies; I lost track of the day & time today!

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-20011113/#typenmsp

Mark: it's only the elements and attributes names that are namespaced

Steven: CSS does not have a concept of namespaced attribute value, like in @CLASS

Ben: so there's no spec on the table that lets @CLASS names in CSS have namespaces?

Steven: correct, no namespaced values at all on the table for CSS

Mark: it could be the case that people have written class names that contain colons
... so RDFa would create triples in such cases
... this is fine if it was intended by the author
... but if it was used pre-RDFa, the author may not have intended it
... we need to start with what we think is right and persuade others

Ben: they're saying the class attribute is a type
... and as we're on the Web we want these to have namespaced values

<MarkB_> (Mark is agreeing with Ben's earlier, rather forthright, point, that we should begin with what we think is right for "the web, XHTML, authors and RDF".)

Ben: I hear Steven worried about the potential backlash from others, not about the technical correctness

Steven: I see advantages and disadvantages. I'd rather not irritate people

Mark: but if we don't do namespaced values in class, we will irritate others who do think they've done the right thing [with namespaces]

ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

Ben: it's important to have a validation story

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

Ben: I've made some progress on this

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

Ben: in progress; feel free to track hgrddl-xhtml1
... the nice thing about the DOM implementations are that some browers will fixup non-wellformed XHTML so that we may still be able to use it

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]

ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

Status review of CURIEs

Steven: there is a CURIE editors' draft [member-only] currently in discussion in the HTML WG
... the shortname is not yet approved
... Shane produced this editors' draft along with Mark
... we need to decide whether to keep pushing this

<RalphS> [argh, this editors' draft claims to be a Working Draft; see Style for Group-internal Drafts]

Ben: should we reserve something for the anonymous namespace?
... something for bnodes; unexported names

Mark: maybe there's something in N3 we could borrow for section 3?

Steven: the HTML WG shouldn't publish this draft until the RDF-in-XHTML task force agrees it's a good idea

Ralph: where does the editors' draft lie in the HTMLWG agenda?

Steven: There are no objections within the HTML WG
... Mark, I, and one other are the primary parties with RDF interest

Ralph: are CURIEs a solution for anything else the HTML WG is dealing with, or are they viewed as only a solution for RDFa?

Steven: more the latter

Mark: though CURIEs could also solve problems with RDF/XML, namely that QNames can't express all URIs

Ralph: it will be a heavy debate but I would like to see the discussion continue

Ben: the CURIE syntax may need more work but at the end of the day it is solving an important issue
... I'd like to move forward with it while we're in the proposal stage
... solves bnodes, solves URIs that can't be done with QNames
... square bracket notation is familiar to some people
... in 80% of the cases, CURIEs can be treated just like QNames

Mark: even if CURIEs were defined to be equal to QNames, it would be better to have that level of indirection so you can explain all the restrictions

Ben: we do have code that implements CURIE parsing and it seems to work

Steven: HTML WG has a face-to-face scheduled for 11 Sep. Could plan to publish CURIE WD shortly after that f2f

ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

hGRDDL profile

Ben: 2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1 profile work-in-progress

Ralph: please claim authorship for hgrddl-xhtml1 :)

Ben: this is a nice place to build in some default behavior that is not appropriate to put into XHTML or RDFa
... e.g. rel='next' is transformed to rel='xhtml:next'
... I also included an example using the class= attribute
... I'm hoping to get informed feedback from people by showing these examples

Mark: says "would become" -- actually, the class= attribute is removed
... seems you'd want to show the N3 next

Ben: perhaps "has the transform"; what we want to see is people commenting on the transform
... I'm suggesting that the decisions we make for class= and role= are part of the hgrddl-xhtml profile

Mark: I've been thinking of class= as analogous to the N3 syntax "<> a Foo".
... though SVG does also use class=

Ben: GRDDL WG has its initial meeting tomorrow
... I plan to continue working on this profile and write some code, to use as a basis for discussion

Mark: is it worth putting a real example in?

Ben: yes, absolutely

Mark: such as a vCard

Steven: we need to answer Dan's comment about following your nose

ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

Steven: may require me to make some edits to the XHTML namespace document as well

Ben: I will mention that in my response

[adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[DONE] ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2006/08/08 14:29:00 $