13:45:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #vmtf
13:45:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-irc
13:45:53 <RalphS> Meeting: SWBPD Vocab Management Task Force
13:48:52 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #vmtf
13:59:25 <Zakim> SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has now started
13:59:32 <Zakim> +JacekK
14:00:27 <tbaker> aliman, RalphS, @danbri_?  Anyone else here yet?
14:01:07 <Zakim> +??P4
14:01:59 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:02:38 <RalphS> zakim, jacekk is really TomB
14:02:38 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
14:02:43 <Zakim> +Danbri
14:03:45 <RalphS> Previous: 2005-11-15 http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes
14:03:48 <RalphS> Chair: Tom
14:04:25 <RalphS> Ralph: no progress on testing apache config options w/W3C site
14:04:33 <danbri_> tom's report has "provenance is supported by using   the final URI from the chain of redirects as the name of    the graph; different URIs represent different versions of a   vocabulary."
14:05:28 <RalphS> ACTION: Ralph confirm either 22 Nov or 6 Dec with Matthieu and Ted or propose an alternative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action01]
14:05:30 <RalphS> -- done
14:05:31 <danbri_> in 'issues under discussion', http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html
14:05:50 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph check configurations on W3C site [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action04]
14:06:28 <tbaker> danbri: two deployment models, one: 
14:06:35 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Tom to prepare excerpts from last telecon for inclusion in new Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action06]
14:06:41 <tbaker> put resource in as named graph
14:06:52 <tbaker> second model: redirect thru generated ID
14:06:53 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html VM Task Force progress report [Tom 2005-11-22]
14:07:18 <tbaker> sparql people did not want to force this issue
14:07:26 <tbaker> danbri will look for reference.
14:08:24 <Zakim> -TomB
14:08:33 <tbaker> any volunteers to scribe?
14:09:16 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Alistair to move draft into VM space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action05]
14:09:38 <danbri_> looking around http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rdfDataset cant find the exact point i want to make
14:09:39 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/ Configuring Apache HTTP Server for RDFS/OWL Ontologies Cookbook
14:09:57 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker
14:10:00 <tbaker> i'm back
14:10:19 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Alistair to add purl.org case to draft note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action03]
14:10:27 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Alistair investigate PURL use case and add to configuration options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action02]
14:12:26 <tbaker> have there been any volunteers to scribe in the meantime?
14:14:10 <danbri_> report - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html
14:14:13 <RalphS> DanBri: I looked at Tom's summary and it looked good
14:15:52 <RalphS> Alistair: the requirements section of the cookbook could use more attention
14:16:08 <RalphS> ... Peter Patel-Schneider disagreed with some of the requirements as stated and proposed softer ones
14:16:12 <aliman> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0125.html
14:16:18 <aliman> ... message from pps
14:16:28 <tbaker> q+ to ask about Ian Davis's proposal to RE-redirect purl.org URIs 
14:16:28 <aliman> [[
14:16:31 <aliman> For any HTTP URI used as an identifier in the Semantic Web
14:17:05 <danbri_> q+ to note the OWL DL vs Full issue getting more urgent (ISWC feedback)
14:17:07 <aliman> For any HTTP URI used as an identifier in the Semantic Web
14:17:08 <aliman> 1/ there should be a way of finding a machine-processable document that
14:17:10 <aliman>    provides some information about the formal meaning of that identifier;
14:17:12 <aliman>    and
14:17:13 <aliman> 2/ there should be a way of finding a human-readable document that 
14:17:15 <aliman>    provides some information about the intended meaning of that identifier.
14:17:24 <Zakim> +Vivien
14:17:54 <vivien> vivien has joined #vmtf
14:19:51 <vivien> [VM] Agenda for 15 Nov Telecon -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0004.html
14:20:18 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0074.html agenda for discussion purposes
14:23:31 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#requirements Requirements
14:23:55 <danbri_> q+ to say i prefer defaulting to the xhtml
14:25:01 <tbaker> q-
14:25:09 <danbri_> (I'd like an apache config eg that allows the administrator to decide easily which vresion is the default)
14:25:44 <tbaker> q+ to propose that, with Vivien, we focus on the examples in the yellow boxes
14:25:50 <RalphS> Alistair: I revised the requirements to say that RDF should be served by default and make the client specifically request HTML
14:26:13 <RalphS> ack danb
14:26:13 <Zakim> danbri_, you wanted to note the OWL DL vs Full issue getting more urgent (ISWC feedback) and to say i prefer defaulting to the xhtml
14:26:28 <danbri_> q-
14:27:44 <vivien> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe1
14:27:47 <tbaker> q-
14:28:02 <RalphS> Topic: Example 1: Hash Static Configuration, Minimal
14:28:08 <RalphS> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example1
14:28:17 <RalphS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe1
14:28:32 <RalphS> Alistair: example 1 in the two versions should be the same
14:29:00 <danbri_> (wouldn't a plain ALias directive do the job here?)
14:29:06 <RalphS> Vivien: another alternative is to set the .rdf named file as the directory index
14:29:08 <danbri_> (rewrite module is overkill?)
14:29:22 <RalphS> Alistair: directory index technique only works for "/" namespaces
14:29:25 <danbri_> ACK DANBRI
14:29:52 <RalphS> DanBri: it looked like aliases would work; using rewrite may be overkill
14:30:38 <RalphS> ... but perhaps I'm prematurely optimizing and symmetry across examples is better
14:31:09 <RalphS> Ralph: unless there is a significant performance hit, I'd go with using the same kind of recipe for all cases
14:31:20 <RalphS> DanBri: performance hit may only be in extreme cases
14:31:34 <RalphS> Vivien: use of rewrite should not be much of a performance hit
14:32:11 <tbaker> example 3: Slash Static Configuration, Minimal
14:32:19 <danbri_> http://bignosebird.com/apache/a9.shtml "There is a performance penalty for placing RewriteEngine directives in your .htaccess file, but I recommend doing so for the following reasons."[..]
14:32:20 <RalphS> Topic: ITEM 5: Slash Static Configuration, Minimal
14:32:51 <RalphS> Alistair: I changed the configuration between the old and new drafts
14:33:02 <RalphS> -> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example3 old
14:33:19 <RalphS> Alistair: index.rdf rewrites to the .rdf
14:33:33 <RalphS> ... I discovered that this implementation creates a circularity
14:34:02 <RalphS> ... leads to namespace/index.rdf but namespace/* matches another patter so there was a special rewrite rule to break out
14:34:08 <RalphS> ... I simplified this in the new draft
14:34:12 <vivien> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe2
14:34:48 <vivien> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_dir.html#directoryindex
14:34:59 <RalphS> Vivien: it may be easier to use DirectoryIndex to replace the last RewriteRule
14:35:40 <RalphS> Alistair of we redirect example2/x back to example2/ will this interfere?
14:36:21 <RalphS> s/ of/: if/
14:36:35 <RalphS> ... the 303 redirect is there to comply with the TAG resolution of httpRange-14
14:38:02 <RalphS> Topic: ITEM 4: Hash Static Configuration, Good Practice
14:38:12 <RalphS> -> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example2 old text
14:38:27 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe3 new text
14:38:55 <RalphS> Alistair: I changed this recipe to reduce the number of directory levels
14:39:38 <RalphS> Vivien: I wondered why this recipe did not use built-in content negotiation
14:40:06 <RalphS> ... e.g. given both index.xml and index.rdf apache can be configured to select based on client Accept:
14:40:18 <RalphS> Alistair: we don't really need a redirect for the HTML content
14:40:34 <RalphS> ... but for the RDF content we want to redirect to a version or snapshot of the ontology
14:41:01 <RalphS> ... you can use this new URI in, e.g. SPARQL queries, to ask for properties of this version of the ontology
14:41:44 <RalphS> Vivien: this is similar to the W3C Technical Report Latest Version/ This Version redirects
14:42:02 <RalphS> ... on the W3C servers we use symlinks for the Latest Version
14:42:14 <RalphS> q+ to ask about symlinks
14:42:29 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example3.rdf$ example3-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]
14:42:38 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example3.html$ example3-content/2005-10-31.html [R=303]
14:43:10 <RalphS> Vivien: with rewrite rules like these you can use apache content negotiation
14:43:30 <RalphS> Alistair: is this enough to trigger the automatic content negotiation?
14:43:35 <RalphS> Vivien: I think so
14:44:03 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example3(\.rdf)?$ example3-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]
14:44:18 <RalphS> Alistair: there's a possible alternative configuration, then, for recipe 3
14:45:21 <RalphS> Vivien: this rewrite rule avoids symlinks, as you can only use symlinks if you have access to the filesystem
14:45:37 <RalphS> ... folks with FTP-only access can't use symlinks
14:45:52 <RalphS> Topic: ITEM 6: Slash Static Configuration, Best Practice (Single Document)
14:46:03 <RalphS> -> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example4 old
14:46:10 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example4/(.*) example4-content/2005-10-31.html#$1 [R=303,NE]
14:46:16 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe4 new text
14:46:41 <RalphS> Vivien: example4/ will go to .html#
14:46:49 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example4/ example4-content/2005-10-31.html [R=303,NE]
14:46:52 <RalphS> ... the pattern should probably be (.+)
14:47:11 <RalphS> Alistair: is # followed by nothing a problem? if not, this saves a rule
14:47:30 <RalphS> Vivien: not sure, though certainly browsers will go to the top of the document
14:47:46 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example4/(.+) example4-content/2005-10-31.html#$1 [R=303,NE]
14:48:35 <RalphS> Ralph: whether or not it's legal to have nothing after '#', it's clearly a different URI from the no-# one
14:48:41 <RalphS> ... this might or might not be important to us
14:49:10 <RalphS> Vivien: still worth considering whether built-in content negotiation can be used here
14:49:27 <RalphS> Alistair: can't see how to make built-in negotiation work with the $1 substitution
14:50:08 <RalphS> Topic: ITEM 7: Slash Static Configuration, Best Practice (Multiple Documents)
14:50:14 <RalphS> -> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example5 old text
14:50:25 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe5 new text
14:50:31 <RalphS> Alistair: this changed between old and new
14:50:35 <RalphS> ... new has more directives
14:50:46 <RalphS> ... to avoid having to assume that index and multiviews are enabled for the documentation directory
14:51:51 <RalphS> Ralph: will the new version still work if MultiViews is on
14:51:54 <RalphS> ... ?
14:52:14 <RalphS> Vivien: since you are using explicit extensions in the new version it shouldn't matter if MultiViews is on or off
14:52:28 <RalphS> Alistair: I turned off MultiViews because I saw some funny behavior in the rewriting
14:52:52 <RalphS> ... can't remember the details right now
14:53:10 <RalphS> ... because of trailing '/' on some of the URIs there was some automatic rewriting going on
14:53:27 <RalphS> ... turning off MultiViews fixed this for me
14:54:09 <RalphS> ... is it true that turning off MultiViews in .htaccess will cascade down to subdirectories?
14:54:15 <RalphS> Vivien: yes
14:54:20 <vivien> http://www.example.com/foo/bar/test/
14:54:42 <RalphS> apache will look for .htaccess in test/ first, then in bar/, then in foo/
14:54:51 <tbaker> RalphS, can we remain on the bridge beyond 15:00?
14:54:52 <RalphS> ... each one will overwrite the previous rules
14:55:01 <RalphS> yes, but I have HTML TF call at 15:00
14:55:02 <vivien> RewriteRule ^example5/.* example5-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]
14:56:04 <RalphS> Alistair: the next set of recipes have to do with PURLs
14:58:22 <RalphS> Topic: Recipe 6. PURL Hash Configuration, Minimal
14:58:31 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe6 text
14:59:22 <RalphS> Ralph: PURL is "Persistent URL"
14:59:38 <RalphS> ... it's a deployed service, using 302 redirects currently, which is important to one of our major customers
14:59:52 <RalphS> ... allows people to publish persistent URIs when they don't own their own server
15:00:34 <vivien> vivien@han-solo:~$ HEAD -S http://purl.oclc.org/net/swbp-vm/example7/
15:00:34 <vivien> HEAD http://purl.oclc.org/net/swbp-vm/example7/ --> 302 Found
15:00:34 <vivien> HEAD http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/example7.rdf --> 200 OK
15:01:14 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this log public
15:01:36 <RalphS> Tom: I didn't realize we'd need individual PURLs for each property
15:01:46 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:03:43 <vivien> http://purl.oclc.org/
15:03:54 <vivien> http://purl.oclc.org/maint/choose_redirect.html
15:04:01 <vivien> [[ For example, if the partial redirect http://purl.foo.com/bar/ exists and is associated with the URL http://your.web.server/your/servers/web/root/ then an attempt to resolve the partial redirect PURL http://purl.foo.com/bar/some/other/stuff.html will resolve to the URL http://your.web.server/your/servers/web/root/some/other/stuff.html
15:04:01 <vivien>  ]]
15:05:16 <tbaker> alistair: will revise Recipe 7, 9, and 10 for partial redirects
15:05:30 <tbaker> ACTION alistair: revise 7,9,10 for partial redirects
15:08:21 <Zakim> -Danbri
15:09:41 <tbaker> everything vivien said for 4 and 5 we can take on board for 9 and 10
15:10:13 <Zakim> -Vivien
15:11:15 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0074.html
15:11:20 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS
15:16:45 <vivien> vivien has left #vmtf
15:36:36 <RalphS> zakim, list attendees
15:36:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, TomB, Danbri, Tom_Baker, Vivien
15:36:39 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:36:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS
15:39:52 <Zakim> -Tom_Baker
15:39:54 <Zakim> -??P4
15:39:56 <Zakim> SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has ended
15:39:58 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, TomB, Danbri, Tom_Baker, Vivien
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