See also: IRC log
Good morning, I am scribe today.
<Justin> Scribe: Wayne
<Justin> Good morning Wayne.
Hi, I hope school is going well.
<Justin> thanks, it is. We are in the process of learning SVG, which is quite fun and has some great accessibility implications.
<judy> Helle, try typing this: /nick Helle
<judy> and then: "Zakim, mute me"
<shawn> liam, you can also get it from the archives: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG
Liam - where did you give the talk?
Liam announced a new 3 part (1 lecture, 2 hands-on) at ??
Group: The issue of accessibility in University curriculum was discussed and will be a meeting topic in the near future.
<judy> michael?
Shadi: Best practices exchange in St. Augstine Date??. In an old castle, expanded content, ...
<shadi> 25 October, 2005
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut.html#discussion
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/10/training.html
Shawn: Change response to 10-13 meeting, makes
clear the limits of informal evaluation, but gives connection with WCAG to
give a pointer to complete evaluation.
... [re: "Optimizing User Involvement"] Asked group for clarification to the
presentation.
Group: General Aproval...
Shawn: Optimizing User Involvement, title discussion...
<shawn> Involving Users Effectively
<shawn> Getting the Most from Users
<shawn> alan: Effective user invovlement
<shawn> helle: use users
<shawn> wayne: effective inclusion of users
Alan, Helle and group: The Getting the Most... sounds exploitive and is too coloquial.
Shawn: the two points.. prepare so you dont waste user's and your time and there are variety of levels of usability testing.
<shawn> Involving Users Effectively
Group: No objectsions: Involving users effectively...
Shawn: New Item: Document needs to highlight
how documents look to people with diabilities...
... The question: do we need an explicit sentence declaring the need for
developers to experience assistive technology directly.
Every developer can benefit from more direct experience with assistive technology.
<barry> Mark Twaine quote: "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." copied from <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html>
William: Introduction (3rd use of "highly motivated"..) is parhaps too much.
<Harvey> More quotes in my "Precepts on Aging and Growing Old Gracefully" are many pertinent quotations: http://www.hbingham.com/
Group: ... No need for serious change, trust the editor.
Judy: Bolding of sentence fragments seems to interrupt reading rather than focus important points as intended.
bye Alan.
Judy: If we bold, let's bold parsed units... [phrase from nonterminal down].
Group: Many group members find it jagged, disruptive...
<Helle> me/ zakim, unmute Helle_Bjarno
Shawn: I would like editors discretion on this issue.
William: Please try: What would a "bold document extraction" look like.
Shawn: more formatting: Introduction/ Second
Paragraph... previous alt-text was in a <code> element; now it is not
code.
... Does the changed font increase or decrease readability.
Judy: The code font type may detract from the page usability from the point of view of visual complexity.
Group: There is strong agreement to change the "code" look to a natural language setting.
Shawn: I think it is easier to read in a different font, but the document is visually more complex.
Liam: Translate the code into language.
<Liam> Suggested text: the developer might set an image alternate description as "This image is a line art drawing of a dark green magnifying glass. If you click on it, it will take you to the Search page." However, observing a person use the site with a screen reader will clearly show the developer that the alternate description is ineffective and "search" is all that is needed.
Shawn: Last teleconference discussed... Including diverse users does not include needs... Shawn does not think needs is necessary... The point is diversity; peopple with disabilities are diverse; most people already think of people with disabilites are "needy"; myth: people have so many needs you can never satisfy them all..
<Harvey> Harvey leaving now for another meeting
William: The paragraph communicates an otherness...
<shawn> ACTION: shawn address differentness - change to diverse ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shawn: Introduction/ paragraph 2/ use of contractions? Shawn finds lack of contractions as a native speaker of English.
Judy: "take a web debeloper" is ideomatic. Difficulty depend on the actual contraction.
suggestion: "consider a web developer ..."
Judy: Are there any objections to sending this to the Web based survey form?
Group: No objections, bravo...
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/
<shadi> ooops
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/search
Shadi, is remarkably patient.
Shadi: Most significant change: first page is simplified then followed by a more complex search structure. Reducing subheaders, resubmit with aditional query constraints, entries should be above the fold.
Judy: Does the introduction match the simplified page. Does it give you enough.
Tangy: Give a brief description of the search options.
Justin: Should explain that the concept of search for explicit tools
<judy> available now: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/existingtools
<shawn> Shawn: currurnt design metaphor is document, instead make it search.
Shawn: Perhaps it should be formatted like a search page; right now it looks like a document and the reader might leave it or get the wrong mental set.
Judy: Change h2 elements to say search for tools. That would make the page clearer.
Shawn: leave the text but cut the h2.
William: Just make it a search page, without normal address bar,
<shawn> use case: type in a tool name in a search box
Helle: Need a key to descriptions.
Liam: Why is this not listed on the
introduction page..
... intuitive disire is to have the whole list and then refine.
George: Works better than before.
Justin: it works better, but needs to look more like a search..
shadi: give optins... simple, complete, restricted or something like that...
Judy: does the additional search options page work well.
Justin: follow the search metaphore; simple search then advanced search; for results say " results".
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria and to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want
Shawn: {was using the queue as a place to record comments}
<Liam> bye all...
Scribe is now checking out...
<shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Wayne Inferring ScribeNick: Wayne Present: Doyle_Saylor Wayne Helle_Bjarno Bingham George_Heake Helle Judy Justin_(muted) Shawn Barry_McMullin Shadi Loughborough Alan Liam Regrets: Pasquale Roberto Andrew Henk Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html Got date from IRC log name: 14 Oct 2005 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html People with action items: - address change differentness shawn WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]