IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:31:35 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc

13:31:46 [ben]

RRSAgent, make log world

13:32:09 [ben]

Meeting: WCAG Techniques Task Force (TTF) Weekly Telecon

13:32:41 [ben]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0507.html

13:33:15 [ben]

agenda+ 4.2 (test cases)

13:33:24 [ben]

agenda+ Continue review of 1.3

13:33:31 [ben]

agenda+ 2.4

13:33:37 [ben]

agenda+ Script Techniques

13:51:27 [leasa]

hi ben!

13:51:39 [ben]

good morning

13:51:57 [leasa]

(afternoon...)

13:52:00 [ben]

:)

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13:57:26 [leasa]

Hi cris!

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13:59:28 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

13:59:35 [Zakim]

+Ben

14:01:16 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:01:26 [Zakim]

+Dave_MacDonald

14:01:57 [ben]

zakim, ??P3 is Chris

14:01:57 [Zakim]

+Chris; got it

14:02:24 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:02:40 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe

14:02:42 [ben]

zakim, ??P13 is Lisa

14:02:42 [Zakim]

+Lisa; got it

14:03:20 [Becky_Gibson]

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14:03:25 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:03:49 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:04:35 [Michael]

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14:05:24 [ben]

Chair: Michael_Cooper

14:07:13 [Michael]

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14:07:16 [ben]

agenda?

14:08:07 [ben]

scribe: Chris

14:09:43 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 1

14:09:43 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "4.2 (test cases)" taken up [from ben]

14:09:57 [ben]

Present: 06Ben, Chris, Dave_MacDonald, Lisa, Christophe_Strobbe, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson01

14:10:17 [Zakim]

+Wendy

14:10:27 [ben]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0360.html

14:10:33 [wendy]

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14:10:52 [ChrisR]

David will send proposal to list re d-link

14:11:20 [ChrisR]

New fangled d-link (description of object)

14:11:48 [ChrisR]

BG: did test on IE and object not detected

14:12:03 [ChrisR]

BG: HPR will find text for object tag

14:12:31 [ChrisR]

BG: even if flash, or whatever, is turned on - passed on to Freedom Scientific

14:13:18 [ChrisR]

BG: created DHTML java test file, but can't query object, can post if anyone interested

14:13:36 [ChrisR]

DM: hate d-link idea but see no other fallback

14:14:15 [ChrisR]

BC: needs to be repair technique

14:14:23 [ChrisR]

BG & DM ack

14:14:50 [ChrisR]

BG: what about Applet? (not xhtml)

14:16:02 [ben]

HTML Tech 12.2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-fallback

14:17:43 [ChrisR]

DM: do not want to say that fallbacks are unnecessary, remove note from 12.2

14:18:16 [ChrisR]

DM: if baseline is provided is fallback necessary

14:18:35 [ChrisR]

MC: keep technique, baseline it and move to 1.1

14:18:56 [ChrisR]

DM: agree

14:19:01 [ChrisR]

BC: OK

14:19:30 [ChrisR]

WC: will be doing summary for 1.1 this week, will work with David

14:21:05 [ChrisR]

action: David will put to group, Michael will respond

14:21:35 [ben]

12.3 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-altcontent

14:21:43 [ChrisR]

DM: delete 12.3 cuz it's covered by 4.2

14:22:32 [ChrisR]

BG: they are seperate techs, questions if should be grouped

14:24:04 [ChrisR]

DM: we're asking for 2 of same thing (text in 2 places)

14:25:05 [ChrisR]

DM: wish text in object would be supported

14:25:29 [ChrisR]

BC: not really requiring in 2 places

14:26:54 [ChrisR]

DM: perhaps put into 12.3?

14:28:10 [ChrisR]

DM: keep as seperate and include d-link idea in 12.4, will post this idea to list

14:29:22 [ChrisR]

BC: 12.3 is repair for 12.4

14:30:31 [ChrisR]

MC: if 12.4 doesn't work, use 12.3

14:31:53 [ChrisR]

action: DM will move d-link funky thing into 12.3 and keep both

14:32:20 [ben]

12.5 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#applet-content

14:33:46 [ChrisR]

WC: looks like 1.1, why discuss under 4.2?

14:34:49 [ChrisR]

WC: should be under 1.1

14:35:09 [ChrisR]

DM: propses they go under 4.2

14:36:16 [ChrisR]

DM: they are specific to applets and plugins (4.2) not really alt content (1.1)

14:37:48 [ChrisR]

WC: need to link examples to SC

14:38:34 [ChrisR]

WC: must be clear about mapping

14:38:48 [ChrisR]

MC: leaning towards 1.1, BC agrees

14:40:05 [ChrisR]

WC: depends on how we define non-text content, if we say non-text is applets etc. then must provide text

14:40:16 [ChrisR]

WC: and make applet/object accessible

14:41:32 [ChrisR]

discussion of how 1.1 and 4.2 relates and what if 4.2 dropped

14:42:00 [ChrisR]

DM: eventually have to deal with this but can drop for now

14:43:19 [ChrisR]

WC: have we got a tech for alternate for object if baseline excludes it?

14:44:01 [leasa]

q+

14:44:46 [ChrisR]

WC: if applet is sortof eye candy then is covered by techs, critical applets are not

14:45:37 [ben]

ack leasa

14:49:44 [wendy]

agenda?

14:50:41 [ChrisR]

DM: will look for real-world applets

14:51:14 [ChrisR]

DM: move over to 1.1?

14:51:23 [ChrisR]

general agreement

14:52:59 [ChrisR]

WC looks forward to hearing DM's suggestions

14:54:14 [ben]

12.10 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#download-viewer

14:54:56 [ChrisR]

DM: suggest keep as is, minor text change

14:55:40 [ChrisR]

MC: artifact of 508 and baseline idea means we don't SC and don't need tech

14:56:55 [ChrisR]

BC: example of 2 versions of PDF reader so tech could be usefull

15:01:24 [ChrisR]

MC: anyone that doesn't have viewer is affected, not just PWD

15:03:07 [ChrisR]

WC: difficult to support tech until 4.2 is resolved

15:03:59 [ChrisR]

action: push discussion of 12.10 to Thursday call

15:06:50 [ben]

zakim, close this item

15:06:50 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

15:06:51 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:06:52 [Zakim]

2. Continue review of 1.3 [from ben]

15:07:00 [Zakim]

-Dave_MacDonald

15:07:05 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

15:07:07 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:07:16 [ben]

zakim, take up agendum 2

15:07:16 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Continue review of 1.3" taken up [from ben]

15:11:05 [Zakim]

+Dave_MacDonald

15:11:16 [Zakim]

+John_Slatin

15:12:06 [David]

scribe: dm

15:12:15 [Michael]

scribe: David

15:12:19 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe

15:12:46 [Zakim]

+Ben

15:14:09 [David]

mc: tim boland summarized existing definitions, John ran with it

15:14:31 [David]

js: jim said there was no defn' of technology

15:14:49 [David]

js: so he put some defn' forward

15:15:08 [David]

s/jim/tim

15:15:41 [Becky_Gibson]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html

15:16:15 [David]

js: everybody agrees we need uniform defn'

15:16:34 [leasa]

leaving the call

15:17:00 [ben]

John's proposed def. of techniques - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html

15:17:01 [David]

bye lisa

15:17:04 [leasa]

something urgent just cam eup

15:17:06 [leasa]

buy

15:17:23 [Zakim]

-Lisa

15:17:25 [ben]

1.3 Techniques Issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/att-0345/00-part

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15:18:37 [David]

bg: suggest we move it out

15:19:00 [David]

mc: if there are accessibility implications in the future we will need it

15:19:19 [David]

js: JAWS now suports Rowgroup element

15:19:41 [David]

mc: use tbody to make row groups

15:20:00 [David]

bc: optional because not applicable to talbles

15:20:17 [David]

bc: not needed for all tables

15:20:36 [David]

bc: on simple data table no need to worry about it

15:22:43 [David]

js: thead holds headings row...significant for low vision

15:23:04 [David]

bg: sounds like css tech

15:23:41 [David]

js: lets keep it and a few of us research it

15:24:28 [ben]

action: michael, work on examples for technique 7.4

15:24:59 [David]

bg: what's Joe's tbody examble

15:25:22 [ben]

s/examble/example?

15:25:33 [David]

yup

15:26:25 [David]

js: part of it is because techs are so fine grained we are daling with different aspects of it in dif technique

15:26:41 [David]

wc: do the need to be separate techniques??????

15:27:01 [David]

wc: but it could get very long

15:27:48 [David]

js: is that groupng better suited to the guide doc

15:29:02 [David]

wc: if we can just explain our thinking of when to apply these attributes then we teahc them how to make decisions, that would mean it makes sense in html docs. I'm concerned that guide doc, could get long for various html techniques

15:29:22 [David]

wc: would be cool to make a tree doc

15:30:03 [wendy]

s/tree doc/decision tree that helps people understand what decisions to make.

15:30:16 [David]

mc: I will make a proposal to make tree doc flowchart

15:31:04 [Michael]

action: Michael make tree doc flowchart of selecting table header approach

15:31:16 [David]

bc: sounds like the application doc we talked about...the guidance that you are bring up is more tutorial oriented

15:32:12 [David]

mc: I have a clear picture in my mind

15:32:38 [David]

wc: when do you want to bring it to the group

15:33:24 [David]

wc: flowchart is the interesting part. prioritize there

15:34:26 [David]

mc: decision tree arod when to use specific table things

15:35:10 [David]

mc: this will help with 8, 9, 10 in 1.3

15:35:24 [David]

and 7

15:35:41 [wendy]

11. Categorizing data cells

15:36:19 [David]

bg: #11 cites bug 653

15:37:47 [David]

wc: intent is to query the data in a data table based on category but I don't think anyone uses it.

15:38:16 [David]

wc: window eyes and Jaws don't do it

15:39:02 [David]

js: it tries to turn table into 3 D but I don't understand it

15:39:18 [David]

dm: if we don't get it will general public be able to do it

15:39:42 [David]

wc: it is part of WCAG 1.0 and so it needs a placeholder

15:41:36 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-table-markup

15:41:45 [David]

mc: two options throw it out or keep it,

15:41:53 [David]

all: out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

15:42:57 [David]

wc: will put placeholder for transition

15:43:43 [David]

bg: math ML

15:45:15 [David]

deals with 12.1

15:45:24 [David]

mc: let's comment it out

15:45:29 [wendy]

12. Markup and style sheets rather than images: the example of math

15:45:48 [David]

js: if we want a math ml tecniques let's ask Neil Soiffer,

15:46:08 [David]

wc: he said he would but organizaing it is hard

15:46:17 [David]

closede 184

15:46:22 [wendy]

13. CSS styling

15:46:29 [David]

closed bug 184

15:47:07 [David]

bg: let's remove it or give it specific examples

15:49:07 [David]

wc: this is what I was trying to get at at the tech lenary. most started with html tests, there is so much overlap with HTML, let's inlcude css in here

15:50:28 [David]

mc: next week's agenda will be to include wendy's proposal to include CSS in html techniques

15:51:38 [David]

mc: comment out again

15:52:11 [David]

bc: let's just kill it

15:53:38 [David]

wc: survey's have go to list we can to a survey on it.

15:53:56 [David]

bg: next would be my list of proposed techniques

15:54:15 [wendy]

Proposed HTML Techniques.

15:54:16 [wendy]

1 Technique for marking up plain text documents.

15:54:54 [David]

bg: if we have to deal with plain te3st documents depending on 1.3 then we have to write a tehniue

15:55:07 [David]

technique

15:55:14 [wendy]

2. Do we need an HTML technique for L1 SC3 about color - there are currently none?

15:56:27 [David]

mc: perhaps no need for css techniques, no nooed for html technique

15:56:46 [wendy]

3. Perhaps a technique to address Issue #1244, Image-based headings

15:57:48 [David]

bg: if they must use img headers should show image based heading wrapper, create a technique

15:59:02 [David]

bc: finds headers and dynamically created flash objects, in a specific font,

15:59:12 [David]

wc; cool thing about it is text is still text

16:00:47 [David]

wc: we can reference this technique

16:01:12 [David]

bg: we can't include a techique for flash

16:01:39 [Michael]

action: John explore progressive enhancement

16:01:41 [ben]

sIFR: http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/

16:01:59 [David]

bg: we will reference this technique

16:02:24 [David]

bg: select element

16:03:25 [David]

wc: thomas casper says they are different,

16:03:47 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2004Sep/0013.html

16:04:12 [Michael]

action: Becky follow up on issue 1199

16:06:43 [David]

chistophe has guidelines summary for thrusday call, then someone (Chistophe?) can do summary

16:06:53 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

16:06:55 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

16:06:56 [Zakim]

-Ben

16:06:56 [Zakim]

-Chris

16:06:57 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

16:06:57 [Zakim]

-Dave_MacDonald

16:06:58 [ChrisR]

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16:07:00 [ben]

agenda?

16:07:07 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

16:07:07 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Wendy, John_Slatin

16:07:08 [ben]

zakim, close agendum 2

16:07:08 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

16:07:09 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:07:10 [Zakim]

3. 2.4 [from ben]

16:07:14 [ben]

zakim, close agendum 3

16:07:14 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

16:07:16 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

16:07:17 [Zakim]

4. Script Techniques [from ben]

16:07:20 [ben]

zakim, close agendum 4

16:07:20 [Zakim]

agendum 4 closed

16:07:21 [Zakim]

I see nothing remaining on the agenda

16:07:28 [Christophe_Strobb]

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16:07:30 [ben]

RRSAgent, please generate minutes

16:07:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben

16:08:52 [ben]

RRSAgent, bye

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items:

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: David will put to group, Michael will respond [1]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-21-05

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DM will move d-link funky thing into 12.3 and keep both [2]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-31-53

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: push discussion of 12.10 to Thursday call [3]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-03-59

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael, work on examples for technique 7.4 [4]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-24-28

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael make tree doc flowchart of selecting table header approach [5]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-04

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John explore progressive enhancement [6]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T16-01-39

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Becky follow up on issue 1199 [7]

16:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T16-04-12

16:08:56 [ben]

Zakim, Bye

16:08:56 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were Ben, Dave_MacDonald, Chris, Christophe_Strobbe, Lisa, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, John_Slatin

16:08:56 [Zakim]

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