IRC log of swbp on 2005-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:36 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swbp

13:56:36 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc

13:56:51 [Ralph]

Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

13:56:55 [Ralph]

Chair: Ben Adida

13:56:58 [Steven]

zakim, code?

13:56:58 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is

13:57:03 [Steven]

zakim, this will be rdf

13:57:03 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:57:21 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0000.html

13:58:36 [Ralph]

Ralph has changed the topic to: RDF-in-XHTML TF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0000.html

13:59:20 [MarkB_]

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14:00:57 [benadida]

hmmm, having trouble getting into the telecon phone line... is it not 10am by Zakim yet?

14:01:00 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:01:03 [benadida]

ahah

14:01:07 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:01:25 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:01:53 [benadida]

Zakim, IPcaller is me

14:01:53 [Zakim]

+benadida; got it

14:02:36 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:02:41 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:02:41 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:02:46 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-work

14:02:46 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:02:46 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:03:00 [Zakim]

+??P15

14:03:17 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p15 is Jeremy

14:03:17 [Zakim]

+Jeremy; got it

14:04:45 [Zakim]

-benadida

14:06:05 [jjc]

jjc has joined #swbp

14:06:10 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:06:24 [jjc]

Zakim, who's on the call?

14:06:24 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, MarkB_, Steven, Jeremy, Ben_Adida

14:07:54 [Ralph]

Topic: Status of XHTML Last Call

14:07:59 [Steven]

http://hades.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule

14:08:21 [Ralph]

Steven: the latest editor's draft (above) is built nightly, not yet uploaded to W3C site

14:08:29 [Ralph]

... please take a look and give us feedback

14:08:44 [Ralph]

... the area we're having problems with still is blank nodes

14:09:01 [Ralph]

... we want to create anonymous nodes and give them names independent of URLs

14:09:18 [Ralph]

... for this one little edge case it seems a new naming and referencing mechanism needs to be created

14:09:30 [Ralph]

... e.g. aboutblank and hrefblank

14:09:49 [Ralph]

... and we need a way to give a (blank) name to an element

14:10:02 [Jeremy]

Zakim, mute me

14:10:02 [Zakim]

Jeremy should now be muted

14:10:03 [Ralph]

... in RDF/A there was a proposed XPointer framework for referring to blank nodes and a naming mechanism

14:10:27 [Ralph]

... the problem with this XPointer framework solution was that we'd have to create a spec for it, as it's not defined anywhere

14:10:41 [Jeremy]

q+ to comment on RDF/A solution: XPointer no, one nodeID attribute sufficient

14:10:51 [Ralph]

Mark: we could simply define that framework as in the RDF/A draft -- don't have to go all the way back to XPointer

14:10:58 [Ralph]

... it makes use of the XPointer architecture

14:11:25 [Ralph]

... we could define this in our spec, don't need to go back to XPointer WG

14:11:31 [Jeremy]

ack me

14:11:32 [Zakim]

Jeremy, you wanted to comment on RDF/A solution: XPointer no, one nodeID attribute sufficient

14:11:50 [Ralph]

Jeremy: I didn't like the XPointer solution

14:12:27 [Ralph]

... I found it "ugly"

14:13:01 [Ralph]

... one attribute is sufficient; no need for extra hrefblank

14:13:10 [MarkB_]

q+ We do actually need two attributes.

14:13:17 [Ralph]

... what's hard is providing text for an HTML author who is not RDF-aware to motivate this node id attribute

14:13:35 [Ralph]

Steven: you're suggesting a node id attribute that simultaneously defines and references?

14:13:36 [MarkB_]

q+ to comment on attributes: We do need two

14:13:38 [Ralph]

Jeremy: yes

14:14:16 [Ralph]

... in the [October] RDF/A proposal, if there was not a subject in the triple then it was inherited from the context

14:14:58 [Ralph]

... if node id expresses the subject it's possible to default the object and vice-versa

14:15:29 [Ralph]

... while clunky, this achieves the goal of being able to express all of RDF without making things too complicated for an HTML author

14:15:58 [Ralph]

... affected by the complexity of the mapping rules from the XHTML attributes to RDF

14:16:12 [Ralph]

... I felt the [October] RDF/A mapping rules were a bit too complex

14:16:27 [Zakim]

MarkB_, you wanted to comment on attributes: We do need two

14:16:52 [Ralph]

Mark: I came up with the XPointer solution because I'm pretty sure we do need two attributes

14:17:03 [Ralph]

... RDF/XML does not need two attributes due to its striping syntax

14:17:25 [Ralph]

... in the XHTML mechanism we've tried to make it possible to write a complete triple in a single element

14:18:34 [Ralph]

... Jeremy's suggested defaulting mechanism may work but I'm pretty sure there are cases where you still need two attributes

14:19:43 [Ralph]

Mark: aesthetically, bnodes having URIs that are not supposed to be considered as URIs is unaesthetic too

14:20:00 [benadida]

q+ to ask about bnode in doc

14:20:21 [Ralph]

Ben: is the bnode section in this editor's draft yet?

14:21:21 [Ralph]

Steven: no. the document I cited has RDF/A transformed into XHTML2 style except for the bnode material

14:22:11 [Ralph]

... we've been struggling with finding some mechanism for bnodes that is more aesthetic and that is explicable to HTML authors without referring to the term "bnode"

14:22:17 [Ralph]

Jeremy: I agree with that objective

14:23:07 [Ralph]

Mark: why would an author use anything other than id="A" and id="B" to refer to anonymous nodes?

14:24:16 [Ralph]

... why should I be worried about any outside use of those names?

14:24:37 [Ralph]

... e.g. I use those names locally, but why should I prevent them from use outside?

14:25:06 [benadida]

zakim, ack me

14:25:06 [Zakim]

benadida, you wanted to ask about bnode in doc

14:25:07 [Ralph]

... I think this is a concern more to RDF folk than an HTML author

14:25:08 [Zakim]

I see Ralph on the speaker queue

14:25:48 [Ralph]

Ben: let's move this discussion to e-mail

14:26:12 [Ralph]

Jeremy: at the March face-to-face, Steven suggested that XHTML2 would go to Last Call without addressing this particular issue

14:26:26 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.

14:26:52 [Ralph]

Steven: we don't expect any given XHTML spec to have addressed all open issues; we simply have to freeze a document and count remaining open issues as Last Call issues

14:27:14 [Ralph]

... if we didn't do this we'd never get a document out the door; people are always reading new drafts and bringing new issues

14:28:53 [Ralph]

Ralph: are the words in the editors' draft now fairly stable? would a careful review be a waste of time?

14:28:57 [Ralph]

Steven: not a waste of time

14:29:17 [Ralph]

... people are fixing schema errors now

14:29:27 [Ralph]

... but up to publication there are always the chance of changes

14:29:36 [benadida]

ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2

14:30:34 [Ralph]

Steven: the editors' draft cited above has dealt with all the issues from the HTML WG F2F

14:30:45 [Ralph]

Topic: Status of Action Items from SWBPD F2F

14:31:12 [Ralph]

ACTION BenA: Examples in RDF/XHTML and RDF/XML - use cases

14:31:17 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:31:39 [Ralph]

Ben: any specific examples you'd like to see, or just use cases?

14:31:43 [Ralph]

Steven: use cases good

14:31:59 [Ralph]

Mark: OK to give RDF/XML examples and we'll translate them

14:32:24 [Ralph]

... most of the larger examples I've done have been based on RSS and FOAF. These might not express everything

14:32:56 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to continue past action and provide RDF/XML + english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)

14:33:03 [Jeremy]

Zakim, mute me

14:33:03 [Zakim]

Jeremy should now be muted

14:33:48 [Ralph]

action 3=BenA: Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)

14:33:52 [Ralph]

action- 4

14:34:23 [Ralph]

ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities

14:34:25 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:34:41 [Ralph]

ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements

14:34:42 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:34:47 [Ralph]

Topic: Next Meeting

14:34:50 [Jeremy]

Zakim, unmute me

14:34:50 [Zakim]

Jeremy should no longer be muted

14:35:12 [Ralph]

BenA: let's plan to meet weekly, even if it's a short meeting

14:35:26 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

14:35:26 [Ralph]

next meeting: 12 April

14:35:27 [Jeremy]

Zakim, mute me

14:35:27 [Zakim]

Jeremy should now be muted

14:35:32 [Ralph]

Topic: GRDDL

14:35:55 [Jeremy]

Zakim, unmute me

14:35:55 [Zakim]

Jeremy should no longer be muted

14:36:07 [Ralph]

BenA: discuss f2f feeback; do we need to address a pre-XHTML2 solution?

14:36:20 [Ralph]

Jeremy: I'll take an action to get HP feedback

14:36:24 [benadida]

ACTION: Jeremy to ask about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem

14:37:29 [Ralph]

BenA: Dan and Dom did a new editor's draft for GRDDL

14:37:40 [Ralph]

Ralph: I read the new draft but didn't look at the diffs

14:38:03 [Ralph]

Ben: what I gleaned from the email is that typos were fixed

14:38:05 [Jeremy]

q+ to summarize changelog

14:38:20 [Ralph]

... and specifying what happens if more than one transform is given within a document

14:38:51 [Ralph]

Ralph: Dave Beckett announced an implementation

14:39:03 [Ralph]

... Dave asked if multiple tranformations yield a single graph

14:39:10 [Ralph]

... Dom answered in the affirmative

14:40:29 [Jeremy]

q+ to discuss possible questions to users

14:41:22 [Ralph]

Ben: what communities do we need to approach?

14:41:35 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2

14:41:53 [Ralph]

Ralph: Creative Commons and Dublin Core are still in the top of our list.

14:42:07 [Ralph]

... we could grow the list but at least we need those two responses

14:42:12 [Zakim]

Jeremy, you wanted to summarize changelog and to discuss possible questions to users

14:42:35 [Ralph]

Jeremy: I see only editorial changed in the GRDDL changelog

14:43:01 [Ralph]

... should I be asking HP "Is GRDDL useful" or "Do we need a solution to embedding RDF before XHTML2"?

14:43:24 [Ralph]

BenA: I think the latter; do we need a solution before XHTML2 and if so, is GRDDL a good way to do this?

14:43:38 [Ralph]

Jeremy: the vast majority of HTML on the web is ill-formed, not XML

14:43:54 [Ralph]

... if we're seeking user feedback, it's up to them to define the scope

14:44:22 [Ralph]

Ben: I think it's good to cast a wide net to find out user expectations

14:44:40 [Ralph]

... this task force may not last long enough to provide every solution, but please ask

14:48:03 [Ralph]

Ralph: Dave Beckett's GRDDL implementation partly answers some questions that Ivan Herman raised in a hallway conversation at the March F2F

14:48:28 [Ralph]

... note that the GRDDL spec says transformations SHOULD be XSLT, not MUST

14:49:00 [Ralph]

... so implementations have to be careful

14:49:21 [Ralph]

adjourned

14:49:22 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:49:24 [Zakim]

-Jeremy

14:49:28 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:49:30 [Zakim]

-Ralph

14:49:32 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

14:49:33 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, [IPcaller], benadida, Steven, Jeremy, Ben_Adida

14:53:47 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

14:53:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html Ralph

14:53:58 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make logs world-visible

14:54:04 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items:

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [1]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-26-26

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 [2]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-29-36

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: BenA: Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) [3]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-31-12

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities [5]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-34-23

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [6]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-34-41

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy to ask about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem [7]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-36-24

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 [8]

14:54:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-41-35