IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-01-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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is logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc
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WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
14:58:56 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
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+Don_Evans
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-Becky_Gibson
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+Becky_Gibson
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+[Microsoft]
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+??P21
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-??P21
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15:00:39 [Becky_Gibson]
zakim, +[Microsoft] is Jenea
15:00:39 [Zakim]
sorry, Becky_Gibson, I do not recognize a party named '+[Microsoft]'
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+??P24
15:00:55 [Becky_Gibson]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenea
15:00:55 [Zakim]
+Jenea; got it
15:00:55 [David]
test
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15:01:10 [shadi]
zakim, code?
15:01:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 92248 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:01:26 [ben]
zakim, ??P26 is Ben
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+Ben; got it
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+Shadi
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+[IPcaller]
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+[IPcaller.a]
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zakim, ??p24 is David
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+David; got it
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+Wendy
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15:02:39 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Jenea, David, Ben, Shadi, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a], Wendy
15:02:50 [wendy]
zakim, IPcaller.a is Allistair
15:02:51 [Zakim]
+Allistair; got it
15:02:56 [wendy]
zakim, ipcaller is Chris
15:02:56 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
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15:03:23 [wendy]
zakim, Jenea is Jenae
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+Jenae; got it
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+??P36
15:03:44 [Michael]
zakim, ??P36 is Michael_Cooper
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+Michael_Cooper; got it
15:04:57 [wendy]
Chair: Michael
15:04:59 [wendy]
Scribe: wendy
15:05:12 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG TTF weekly telecon
15:05:12 [Zakim]
+Ken_Kipnes
15:05:19 [wendy]
Date: 19 January 2005
15:05:53 [ken]
ken has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:52 [wendy]
agenda+ finish reviewing alt-text test files
15:06:56 [wendy]
agenda+ checklists
15:07:19 [wendy]
agenda+ applicability conditions for techniques
15:07:36 [wendy]
agenda+ action items
15:07:41 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
15:07:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "finish reviewing alt-text test files" taken up [from wendy]
15:08:02 [wendy]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JanMar/0170.html
15:08:42 [wendy]
cr: would like to either accept or reject tests. how do we do that? majority rules - look at straw poll, if don't say kill, it's accepted?
15:09:27 [wendy]
mc: everything is open, will get discussed in public draft.
15:10:24 [wendy]
cr: simplify the poll to "accept" or "reject"?
15:11:46 [wendy]
cr: accepted means that we agree to publish in a public draft
15:12:08 [wendy]
cr: we need to have closure on these.
15:12:33 [wendy]
cr: will go through the 6 final tests re: alt-text.
15:13:14 [wendy]
zakim, time each speaker for 1 minute
15:13:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'time each speaker for 1 minute', wendy
15:13:29 [wendy]
zakim, set timer at 1 minute
15:13:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'set timer at 1 minute', wendy
15:13:46 [ChrisR]
check status: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/checkstatus.html
15:14:07 [wendy]
zakim, time each speaker at 1 minute
15:14:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'time each speaker at 1 minute', wendy
15:14:16 [wendy]
zakim, time each speaker at 1 minutes
15:14:19 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
15:14:19 [wendy]
ha
15:15:09 [wendy]
Alt text for all AREA elements identifies the purpose or function of the image area. (test 65)
15:15:29 [Michael]
q+
15:15:35 [ben]
q+
15:15:51 [wendy]
cr: it means the link destination
15:16:03 [wendy]
ack mich
15:16:35 [wendy]
mc: whatever confusion we had for the other test, doesn't apply to area. should be straightforward
15:16:39 [wendy]
ack ben
15:16:58 [wendy]
bc: associate this with level 2 #6 under gl 3.2
15:17:09 [wendy]
cr: currenlty has as 1.1
15:17:19 [wendy]
bc: changes the level of it, but seems more straightforward
15:17:23 [wendy]
q+
15:17:38 [wendy]
ack w
15:18:57 [wendy]
wac: concern about changing the level. wording maps well to 1.1, concern about level 2
15:19:23 [wendy]
mc: we need test files now w/out worrying about the level
15:20:30 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
15:21:08 [wendy]
bc: #6 is The destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined.
15:22:29 [David]
that was me muting
15:23:20 [wendy]
wac: 3.2 criterion seems to be a subset of the 1.1 criterion.
15:23:30 [wendy]
js: slight update needed to rewording to map to latest 1.1 text
15:23:50 [wendy]
cr: like the language of the 3.2 criterion, it's clearer.
15:24:41 [wendy]
wac: accept the test, map to both, futz with wording later
15:24:59 [wendy]
175 - Alt text for all IMG elements used as a source anchors is different from the link text.
15:25:07 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test175.html
15:25:23 [Michael]
q+
15:25:30 [wendy]
cr: idea is to avoid redundancy and duplication
15:25:37 [wendy]
ack michael
15:26:01 [wendy]
mc need to clarify in applicability condition that only applicable if other link text in the link
15:26:04 [ben]
q+
15:26:04 [wendy]
ack john
15:26:28 [wendy]
js: concerned that could get slight variations in wording, but basically synonyms and still pass the test.
15:26:55 [wendy]
js: alt-text of scissors and text says "delete" and alt-text says "cut" that would technically pass.
15:27:04 [wendy]
js: but it would be potentially confusing
15:28:01 [wendy]
ack ben
15:28:53 [Michael]
q+
15:29:04 [wendy]
bc: in a 2 cell table, text for img and link were identical. seems it is a user agent issue. creating confusion by making them be slightly different when purpose is the same.
15:29:06 [ChrisR]
q+
15:29:06 [wendy]
ack mich
15:29:33 [wendy]
mc: bc's example is 2 links. this test is the img and text in the same link.
15:29:40 [wendy]
mc: do we have a test for that?
15:29:45 [wendy]
ack chr
15:30:09 [wendy]
cr: prereq test, requires that img is "" if img is decorative. in js's example, alt text could be ::
15:30:13 [wendy]
ack j
15:30:32 [wendy]
js: don't think that you can say that img is decorative. for some, the iconic representation is more understandable than the text.
15:31:24 [wendy]
js: what if we had a test that said, "if the screen text identisifes the 3.2 test, then the req is the alt attribute is empty?"
15:31:35 [Michael]
q+
15:31:35 [ChrisR]
q+
15:31:36 [wendy]
js: there is text that identifies the link destination, in that case, the alt should be empty.
15:31:42 [wendy]
ack mi
15:32:09 [wendy]
mc: new window al-text on img, link text is ... not empty. not desirable 100% of the time.
15:32:16 [wendy]
ack cr
15:32:20 [wendy]
chris
15:32:22 [wendy]
cr: ditto
15:32:49 [wendy]
ack chr
15:32:51 [wendy]
ack john
15:33:22 [wendy]
js: the img is not decorative, conveying info. graphic in the link would have to meet test of convey same info as the graphic.
15:33:36 [wendy]
js: it tells the user that it opens in a new window and link provides the destination.
15:34:27 [wendy]
mc: need to create new tests or add detail to this test?
15:34:42 [wendy]
cr: define decorative? define where should be different?
15:34:43 [Michael]
ack j
15:34:44 [wendy]
ack j
15:35:04 [wendy]
js: when the img conveys diff info from the link text, the alt-text should be different.
15:35:11 [Becky_Gibson]
q+
15:35:15 [wendy]
cr: think the two things should always be different.
15:35:19 [wendy]
mc: never be the same
15:35:21 [wendy]
js: true
15:35:40 [wendy]
js: it's never decorative when it is in the link
15:35:43 [wendy]
mc: sometimes it is
15:35:55 [wendy]
cr: the picture of scissors and text is "cut"
15:36:11 [wendy]
js: that is not decorative. it's a functional graphic and for some users is the primary interface element.
15:36:13 [ben]
q+ to say, "Alt text for all IMG elements used within anchors is different from the link text when the image is not decorative.?"
15:36:44 [wendy]
js: decorative if the img can be dispensed with
15:36:48 [Michael]
ack becky
15:36:51 [wendy]
ack becky
15:37:03 [wendy]
bg: what should the alt-text be?
15:37:08 [wendy]
js: ""
15:37:20 [wendy]
bg: do we really need to get involved if it is decorative or not?
15:37:31 [wendy]
bg: "" is different from "cut"
15:37:34 [Michael]
q+ to say we may need other tests, but this test is ok, let's move on
15:37:35 [ChrisR]
q+
15:37:38 [wendy]
ack ben
15:37:39 [Zakim]
ben, you wanted to say, "Alt text for all IMG elements used within anchors is different from the link text when the image is not decorative.?"
15:37:56 [wendy]
bc: propose - Alt text for all IMG elements used within anchors is different from the link text when the image is not decorative.
15:38:13 [wendy]
bc: only applies when not decorative
15:38:43 [wendy]
ack mich
15:38:43 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say we may need other tests, but this test is ok, let's move on
15:39:06 [wendy]
mc: sounds like this test is ok, although may want to create other tests. perhaps bc's proposal will help.
15:39:08 [wendy]
ack chris
15:39:27 [wendy]
cr: reluctant to change the text, b/c it is already long. to add something to it (in title), might make more confusing.
15:39:39 [wendy]
cr: propose that this test is ok. perhaps, look back at test for decorative.
15:39:40 [wendy]
q+
15:39:49 [Michael]
ack wendy
15:39:59 [David]
zakim, unmute me
15:39:59 [Zakim]
David should no longer be muted
15:40:06 [wendy]
wac: does decorative test say anything about links?
15:40:31 [wendy]
cr: should at least put in another example (when img used in link).
15:40:38 [Michael]
ack john
15:41:08 [wendy]
js: think we decided to use word "decorative" in the test and then use the SC language...
15:41:11 [wendy]
cr: yes, that's in the test.
15:41:20 [wendy]
js: therefore, definition of decorative is not that open.
15:41:45 [wendy]
cr: agreeing this test is ok, perhaps look at decorative.
15:41:54 [wendy]
action: cr will send msgs to list on test 16 (decorative)
15:42:18 [wendy]
Alt text for all INPUT elements with a TYPE attribute value of "image" contains all text in the image unless the image text is decorative or appears elsewhere in the document. (test 193)
15:42:19 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test193.html
15:42:51 [Michael]
q+ to say even if it appears elsewhere you need the text in the context of the submit function
15:43:10 [wendy]
ack mich
15:43:10 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say even if it appears elsewhere you need the text in the context of the submit function
15:43:22 [wendy]
mc: even if it appears elsewhere you need the text in the context of the submit function
15:44:20 [wendy]
cr: think that decorative is the same as incidental
15:44:21 [Michael]
q+ john
15:44:23 [Michael]
ack john
15:44:30 [Michael]
ack john
15:44:39 [Becky_Gibson]
q+
15:44:48 [wendy]
js: incidental has different connotation than decorative. ok to use incidental instead of decroative.
15:45:00 [wendy]
cr: remove "appears elsewhere in the document"
15:45:12 [Michael]
ack becky
15:45:17 [wendy]
q+ to say "define incidental instead of dec"
15:45:56 [wendy]
bg: don't you want to ensure that the img will convey the img will submit? if i use input type='image and it doesn't contain text, nothing that says it must say it is a submit button. is that covered by another test?
15:46:13 [wendy]
bg: aren't we covered by another test? guess not b/c it is image id as submit button.
15:46:32 [wendy]
cr: test 59 says, "Alt text for all INPUT elements with a TYPE attribute value of "image" identifies the purpose or function of the image."
15:46:43 [wendy]
bg: only talks about the text not that it is a submit button
15:46:53 [wendy]
cr: this is to ensure that if there is text in the img it is also in the alt-text
15:47:03 [wendy]
cr: don't think we answered question about incidental.
15:47:08 [wendy]
ack wendyu
15:47:14 [Michael]
ack wendy
15:47:14 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "define incidental instead of dec"
15:47:56 [AliG]
q+
15:48:14 [wendy]
js: not saying to use incidental every place
15:48:17 [Michael]
ack ali
15:48:17 [wendy]
ack alig
15:48:32 [ChrisR]
+q
15:48:32 [wendy]
ag: concerned about translatability of "incidental"
15:49:07 [wendy]
cr: remove "elsewhere int he doc..."
15:49:20 [wendy]
cr: perhaps have ambiguity with "decorative"
15:49:35 [wendy]
action: john look for good, translatable synonym for incidental
15:49:50 [wendy]
action: chris modify test 193 (remove "elsewhere in teh doc...")
15:50:10 [David]
Definition of incidental: 1) occurring or apt to occur as an unpredictable or minor concomitat 2) or a minor, casual, or subordinat nature
15:50:23 [wendy]
bc: think we'll have several similar tests for each element. can we generalize the test? a test that applies to all non-text content?
15:50:27 [ChrisR]
q+
15:50:57 [wendy]
cr: no. they are a little different. alt-text for img may be different. can have a longdesc (that can contain text from the img). won't have longdesc for submit button.
15:51:17 [wendy]
bc: i'm ok with accepting it for now, but if we see several nearly identical tests we may want to create some general tests.
15:51:32 [wendy]
194 - Alt text for all AREA elements contains all text in the image area unless the image text is decorative or appears elsewhere in the document.
15:51:38 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test194.html
15:51:40 [wendy]
ack chris
15:51:53 [Michael]
q+ to say same thing about elsewhere
15:52:04 [Michael]
ack d
15:52:40 [wendy]
dmd: related to ben's point - thinking about how people will go through the document - lists of links of tests.
15:52:52 [wendy]
dmd: concerned that people will be confused by the similarities and number of tests.
15:52:58 [ChrisR]
q+
15:53:09 [ben]
q+
15:53:20 [wendy]
dmd: realize that in a machine environement, it can rattle through, but the amount of tests are a lot for a human to handle.
15:53:37 [wendy]
ack mich
15:53:37 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say same thing about elsewhere
15:54:08 [wendy]
mc: re: test 194 - drop "or appears elsewhere" as with the last test
15:54:11 [wendy]
ack chris
15:54:29 [wendy]
cr: agree to remove "elsewhere". david's question is realted to discussion on checklists.
15:54:31 [wendy]
ack ben
15:54:46 [wendy]
bc: are there cases where the text in the img might be described in a longdesc?
15:54:53 [Michael]
q+
15:55:01 [wendy]
cr: can have longdesc on area?
15:55:18 [wendy]
bc: could be attached to the image
15:55:22 [Michael]
ack M
15:56:01 [wendy]
mc: if the text in the img under the region defined by area is part of what the graphical user perceives as link text, then should all be in the area. in longdesc is not sufficient. won't be accessing at same time as accessing link.
15:56:25 [wendy]
q+
15:56:30 [wendy]
q-
15:56:45 [wendy]
q+
15:57:11 [Michael]
ack wendy
15:58:08 [Michael]
ack j
15:58:38 [ChrisR]
q+
15:59:02 [wendy]
wac: "If the text is not decorative, " ... removing entirely? or replace with something? seems that something should be there.
15:59:04 [wendy]
ack chris
15:59:52 [wendy]
cr: ensure that any text in img goes in alt. prereq that alt must identify the destination. don't have a prereq for empty alt because don't think you can have empty alt for area.
16:00:21 [wendy]
action: chris drop "if the text is not decorative..." for test 194
16:01:03 [wendy]
process questions: time on other 2 tests or move to checklists, applicability conditions
16:01:55 [wendy]
Alt text for all IMG elements used as source anchors does not begin with "link to" or "go to" (English). (test 195)
16:02:02 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test195.html
16:02:35 [wendy]
Alt text for all INPUT elements with a TYPE attribute value of "image" does not use the words "submit" or "button" (English). (test 192)
16:02:41 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test192.html
16:03:09 [David]
does jaws say "submit"? on a submit button
16:03:15 [Michael]
q+
16:03:20 [Becky_Gibson]
q+
16:03:26 [wendy]
ack mich
16:03:50 [Becky_Gibson]
q-
16:03:56 [wendy]
mc: agree with in principle. w/submit button - often text just says "submit." we said want alt-text to be the same as image text. conflicts w/previous tests.
16:04:13 [wendy]
mc: not sure can apply all the time.
16:04:23 [wendy]
ack david
16:04:35 [wendy]
dmd: i like the first one, the 2nd has problems that mc suggested.
16:04:46 [wendy]
ack john
16:04:51 [wendy]
js: agree w/david.
16:05:17 [wendy]
js: alt-text for a button should not contain "button" but "submit" seems ok if that's the text in the img.
16:05:17 [ben]
q+
16:05:37 [Michael]
ack ben
16:06:04 [wendy]
bc: "go to" may not apply everywhere. on kids' sites especially. places where could be valid. "visit the x page..." no reason to ban at level 1.
16:06:06 [ChrisR]
q+
16:06:09 [wendy]
ack john
16:06:52 [wendy]
js: bc's point is good. issue is not when there is a single link, it's when you have several links that begin with the same phrase or letter than prevents navigating in alpha order from link list.
16:06:55 [wendy]
ack chris
16:07:04 [wendy]
cr: agree these are not reallylevel 1. they are nice things to do.
16:07:16 [wendy]
q+
16:07:20 [wendy]
ack wendy
16:07:46 [wendy]
wac: perhaps map to the level 2 criterion in 3.2
16:08:36 [wendy]
js: agree w/ben that if it ok if there a single link than if there are 7 link sthat all say the same thing
16:08:38 [wendy]
ack david
16:08:43 [wendy]
dmd: need a separate test?
16:08:53 [wendy]
q+ to say " part of this test?"
16:09:00 [wendy]
ack wendy
16:09:00 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say " part of this test?"
16:09:37 [wendy]
wac: add to this test. if it occrus once, ok. more than once, an issue.
16:09:46 [wendy]
cr: what is the cut-off limit? does it depend on the language?
16:09:53 [wendy]
dmd: for simplicity - more than one.
16:10:41 [wendy]
cr: for 195, if more than once, not ok.
16:10:48 [wendy]
bc: remove "go to"
16:10:52 [wendy]
js: would like to keep it.
16:11:04 [wendy]
js: w/the proviso that david mentioned. if more than once, flag it.
16:11:25 [wendy]
dmd: for that matter, for any 1st two words...any time the 1st two words are the same in more than 2 links have issues.
16:11:34 [wendy]
dmd: there may be other words we're not thinking of...
16:11:57 [wendy]
wac: that would make it less English-specific
16:12:13 [AliG]
q+
16:12:28 [wendy]
ack john
16:12:59 [wendy]
js: the more i think about it, the harder this one becomes. there are places wher eit is legit for text to be the same. e.g., mlutiple versions of a doc (word, pdf)
16:13:21 [wendy]
js: word verison of [title of doc], pdf version of [title of doc] - either way you get the same words.
16:13:33 [wendy]
js: if it appears twice...
16:13:44 [wendy]
dmd: increase # to 5 words?
16:13:53 [wendy]
ack alig
16:13:57 [wendy]
bc: make the test optional
16:14:20 [wendy]
ag: make it optional. if you pick up 2 word combinations, then have to generate more and justify why.
16:15:04 [wendy]
ag: should write a best practices document if you want to talk about that.
16:15:10 [wendy]
ack john
16:15:29 [wendy]
js: the problem is tha the usefulness of the alt-text decreases if all alt-text links begin wtih the same words.
16:15:44 [ken]
q+
16:15:53 [wendy]
js: have to manually scroll through each link rather than jump by letter
16:16:19 [DonFEvans]
DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
16:16:28 [wendy]
ack ken
16:16:56 [wendy]
kk: when first brought up test, at first questioned "go to" but after discussion, agree (esp on multiple links) this is probably not a good way to do it.
16:17:31 [wendy]
cr: map to other guideline and add "more than once" to the test. you can put it in once, ok. more than once, nope.
16:18:27 [wendy]
action: chris map test 195 to guideline 3.2 and add "more than once" to the test. you can put it in once, ok. more than once, nope.
16:18:35 [wendy]
js: language issue?
16:18:43 [wendy]
ag: how apply it to all languages?
16:19:37 [wendy]
cr: two issues - look for "link tos" and "go tos" and second - don't want links that start with same things.
16:19:58 [wendy]
ag: get rid of this test entirely. if keep it, write it generically, "words used to start links...don't do it"
16:20:01 [Zakim]
-Ken_Kipnes
16:20:26 [ben]
q+
16:20:36 [wendy]
ack ben
16:21:00 [wendy]
bc: agreed a while back that would table something that is not sufficient for meeting success criteria. propose to drop for now and revisit later.
16:21:05 [wendy]
cr: do i discuss this on the list?
16:21:17 [wendy]
cr: want to discuss on the list or not?
16:23:23 [wendy]
action: chris take test 195 to the list for discussion
16:24:11 [wendy]
Alt text for all INPUT elements with a TYPE attribute value of "image" does not use the words "submit" or "button" (English). (test 192)
16:24:35 [wendy]
action: chris take test 192 to the list
16:25:15 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
16:25:15 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
16:25:17 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:25:18 [Zakim]
2. checklists [from wendy]
16:25:19 [wendy]
zakim, ping me in 5 minutes
16:25:19 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
16:25:28 [Zakim]
-David
16:25:30 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
16:30:19 [Zakim]
wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
16:31:27 [Zakim]
+??P15
16:32:48 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 2
16:32:48 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "checklists" taken up [from wendy]
16:33:15 [wendy]
http://www.accessinmind.com/w3c/ConceptPage1.html
16:33:26 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
16:33:27 [wendy]
http://www.accessinmind.com/w3c/ConceptPage2.html
16:34:45 [wendy]
http://www.accessinmind.com/w3c/ConceptPage3.html
16:36:40 [wendy]
ag: building these checklists is based on applicability condidtions and keywords.
16:37:13 [wendy]
ag: build applicability conditions into techniques.
16:37:28 [wendy]
ag: then can determine if technique/test is n/a, pass, or fail
16:37:40 [wendy]
ag: possible changes to techniques: http://www.accessinmind.com/w3c/General1_1.html
16:37:56 [wendy]
ag: could mark a technique as always required, in that case, no applicability conditions.
16:38:24 [wendy]
ag: for a general technique - see 4 boxes:
16:38:55 [wendy]
ag: Applicability Conditions, Testable Statements, Related Tests From WCAG 2.0 Test Suite, Resources
16:39:52 [wendy]
ag: if one of these statements is true, then this technique is applicable:
16:39:54 [wendy]
* Is the web content itself non-text content which provides a function (e.g. A flash animation)?
16:39:56 [wendy]
* Does the web page contain non-text content which provides a function?
16:40:10 [wendy]
ag: if applicable, then look at the Testable Statements
16:40:38 [wendy]
ag: then link test suite tests to testable statements
16:41:05 [wendy]
ag: another example - http://www.accessinmind.com/w3c/HTML14_4.html
16:43:13 [wendy]
dmd: not sure understand the first checklist prototype, changes to techniques. are we still on testing?
16:43:33 [wendy]
ag: yes and no. need to be able to determine if a technique is applicable or not to determine if it has passed or failed.
16:44:01 [wendy]
dmd: trying to link techniques to checklists?
16:44:13 [wendy]
ag: suggesting modification to technique to support creating of checklist.
16:44:26 [wendy]
dmd: not about navigation, it's about wording?
16:44:35 [wendy]
ag: it's only minor changes, most of the info is there.
16:44:57 [wendy]
ag: checklist is separate but needs to draw info from somewhere.
16:45:13 [wendy]
dmd: changes to techniques?
16:45:52 [wendy]
ag: if each technique had a testable statement, could discuss what tests are needed.
16:46:12 [wendy]
ag: for other technologies, will need to create test suites. by creating testable statemetns first, can scope out test suites.
16:47:06 [wendy]
dmd: like a traffic cop for checklists>
16:47:08 [wendy]
?
16:47:13 [wendy]
s/>/?
16:47:26 [wendy]
bc: it's more of a collection of info that we need about techniqeus before we can create checklists.
16:48:13 [wendy]
mc: ready for editos to begin making edits?
16:48:45 [wendy]
bc: discussed prototype for 1.1, since that's furthest along
16:48:47 [wendy]
ack john
16:49:15 [wendy]
js: want to raise the question about general techniques re: 1.1. those were the first ones i wrote, not sure how well they will map into this.
16:49:31 [wendy]
js: if need me to, could rewrite, although have to bump something else to do.
16:49:50 [wendy]
dmd: i'm feeling a little lost. when was this discussed?
16:50:09 [wendy]
js: last week chris, alistair, and ben agreed to meet separately to discuss.
16:50:46 [wendy]
dmd: what are concept 1, 2, 3?
16:51:05 [wendy]
bc: how someone who wants to conform would build a checklist to determine conformance.
16:51:41 [wendy]
q+ to ask, "and/or?"
16:52:12 [wendy]
[figuring out how the first page would work, what the possibilities might be]
16:52:19 [wendy]
[keyword search]
16:52:48 [wendy]
ag: keywords would change depending on which technologies you chose
16:52:58 [wendy]
dmd: we predetermine the keywords. examples?
16:53:03 [wendy]
ag: forms, data table, etc.
16:58:23 [wendy]
dmd: this could be used both to build traffic cop and checklist
16:58:25 [wendy]
ag and bc: yes
16:58:39 [wendy]
dmd: would be good not to do the same thing twice
16:58:53 [wendy]
ack wendy
16:58:53 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask, "and/or?"
16:59:06 [wendy]
ben - did you discuss and/or relationships between tests and techniques?
16:59:24 [wendy]
ag: propose that we begin prototype for guideline 1.1 and see how this all falls together.
16:59:54 [wendy]
action: alistair, ben - prototype checklist for guideline 1.1
17:00:35 [wendy]
action 8 = alistair, ben, david, chris - prototype checklist for guideline 1.1
17:03:28 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
17:03:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:03:29 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:03:31 [Zakim]
3. applicability conditions for techniques [from wendy]
17:03:37 [wendy]
zakim, close item 3
17:03:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
17:03:38 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:03:39 [Zakim]
4. action items [from wendy]
17:03:43 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 4
17:03:43 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "action items" taken up [from wendy]
17:04:01 [wendy]
mc: i've got action items from everyone (from last few meetings).
17:04:06 [wendy]
mc reminders everyone of their items
17:04:14 [wendy]
s/reminders/reminds
17:08:47 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
17:08:49 [Zakim]
-Wendy
17:08:57 [Zakim]
-Don_Evans
17:08:58 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
17:08:59 [Zakim]
-Jenae
17:08:59 [Zakim]
-Ben
17:09:01 [Zakim]
-Alistair
17:09:02 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
17:09:03 [Zakim]
-Chris
17:09:05 [Zakim]
-Shadi
17:09:06 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
17:09:08 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
17:09:09 [AliG]
AliG has left #wai-wcag
17:09:10 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
17:09:11 [shadi]
shadi has left #wai-wcag
17:09:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Ben, Shadi, [IPcaller], David, Wendy, Chris, Jenae, Michael_Cooper, Alistair, Ken_Kipnes, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald
17:09:17 [wendy]
zaim, bye
17:09:21 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make logs world
17:09:28 [wendy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:10:59 [wendy]
zakim, bye
17:10:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:22:58 [ben]
RRSAgent, bye
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items:
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cr will send msgs to list on test 16 (decorative) [1]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T15-41-54
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john look for good, translatable synonym for incidental [2]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T15-49-35
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris modify test 193 (remove "elsewhere in teh doc...") [3]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T15-49-50
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris drop "if the text is not decorative..." for test 194 [4]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T16-00-21
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris map test 195 to guideline 3.2 and add "more than once" to the test. you can put it in once, ok. more than once, nope. [5]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T16-18-27
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris take test 195 to the list for discussion [6]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T16-23-23
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris take test 192 to the list [7]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T16-24-35
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: alistair, ben, david, chris - prototype checklist for guideline 1.1 [8]
17:22:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/19-wai-wcag-irc#T16-59-54