W3C | TAG | Previous: 1 Dec teleconf | Next: 15 Dec TAG teleconf
Minutes of 4 December 2003 TAG teleconference
Nearby: Teleconference details · issues list (handling new
issues)· www-tag
archive
1. Administrative (15min)
- Roll call: SW (Chair), TBL, DC, PC, RF, CL, NW, TB, IJ (Scribe).
Absent: DO.
- Postponed proposed to accept the minutes of the 1 Dec teleconf.
- Accepted this agenda
- Next meeting: 15 Dec 2003 teleconf. 8 Dec teleconf canceled
- Not discussed: Video meeting in Feb 2003:
- Action SW/PC 2003/11/10: Explore possibility of TAG videolink TAG
distributed meeting in February.
- Not discussed: Tech Plenary
- Continued action SW 2003/11/15: Take to tech plenary committee the
TAG's proposal.
SW: I haven't received a response from the committee yet (since
they have yet to meet).
- Not discussed: Negotiations with WGs for last call:
- SW/I18N: SW sent. Reply pending from I18N.
- Schema/PC: PC sent. MSM has confirmed for Schema WG.
- SVG/CL: CL sent. CL has confirmed for SVG WG..
- HTML/IJ: IJ sent. Reply pending from HTML WG.
- Todo: Voice/SW, XML Core/NW, WSDL/DO
2. Technical (75min)
- Review of issues list to determine if satisfied with V 1.0 split
- Review of 3 Dec Editor's
Draft of Arch Doc
2.1 Review of issues list to determine if satisfied with V 1.0 split
Issues list
The TAG resolved to make the following
changes to the issues list. The TAG also expects to finish the associated
action items before requesting the next transition after LC.
- rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
- Withdraw DC action re: XML Schema desideratum (Since Henry Thompson
aware of this issue)
- Continue NW action re: QName finding
- TAG satisfied with state of this issue; not critical path for Last
Call.
- whenToUseGet-7
- Continue DC action to provide TAG with pointers into Web Services
Specs where safe operations manifest.
- Continue DO action to ask WSDL WG to look at finding
- TAG satisfied with state of this issue; not critical path for Last
Call.
- namespaceDocument-8
- TAG will not decide this issue before LC (so change to after V
1.0).
- The TAG expects to close issue 8 (perhaps during last call) and
open a new issue specific to RDDL.
- URIEquivalence-15
- TAG had decided this issue before LC.
- Continue SW action to monitor RFC2396bis developments.
- formattingProperties-19
- TAG had decided this issue before LC.
- errorHandling-20
- Completed CL action to respond to reviewer.
DC: I'd like CL to get an acknowledgment from the reviewer.
- contentTypeOverride-24
- TAG decided this issue: The 3 Dec 2003 Editor's Draft of the
Architecture Document accurately represents the TAG's position on
this issue.
- TAG had decided this issue before LC.
- xmlProfiles-29
- TAG had decided this issue before LC. Work is being carried out in
the XML Core WG.
- binaryXML-30
- Withdraw TB action to send thoughts on survey to www-tag.
The TAG was otherwise satisfied with the state of the issues list w.r.t.
Last Call.
2.2 Review of Architecture Document writing assignments
2.2.1 Recent action items
- Ian
- Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Inform reviewer that issue 6
closed. Sent
email
- Chris
- Completed action CL 2003/11/15: Write text to reviewer about the
resolution of errorHandling-20.
- Roy
- Action RF 2003/10/08: Explain "identifies" in RFC 2396.
RF: The current draft expires this week...I'd better do
it...please continue.
- DO
- Completed Action DO/TBL 2003/11/15: Produce new text for a small
subsection 1.2.4 (or perhaps for 1.2.1)
[TBL not satisfied with how text incorporated; see
below]
- Action DO 2003/11/15: Point WSDL WG to resolution of issue 6.
- Action DO 2003/11/15: Propose some extra text for section 4.5
that hypertext agents often follow an IGNORE rule and this often
results in incompatible behavior. Ignore applied to fragid
interpretation.
MOVE TO ISSUES LIST.
- TBL
- Action TBL 2003/07/14: Suggest changes to section about
extensibility related to "when to tunnel".
MOVE TO ISSUES LIST.
- DC
- Action DC 2003/11/15: Follow up on KeepPOSTRecords with Janet
Daly on how to raise awareness of this point (which is in
CUAP).
- SW
- Completed action SW 2003/11/15: Verify that "agent" is used
consistently in the document and makes sense as both people and
software. (Done)
2.2.2 Comments on 3 December 2003 Draft
3 Dec Editor's Draft of Arch
Doc (changes,
diff)
- timbl
- q+ re 1.2.2
- Ian
- SW: I'm happy with QName text modulo minor editorial.
- Norm
- Rewrite for "language extension":
- Language extension: one language is an extension of a second language
if and only if the second is a language subset of the first (thus, the
extension is a superset). "Extensibility" is the property of a language
that allows extensions to be created. The original language design can
accomplish extensibility by defining how implementations must handle
unknown extensions--for example, that they be ignored (in some way) or
should be considered errors.
- timbl
- q+ to mention that 1.2.2 is not satisfactory and meaning is different
from that in the text Dave and I made in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031111/tim
- Norm
- In the URI examples, the OASIS URN example isn't valid according to
the OASIS URN spec. Suggest:
urn:oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog
- Ian
- PC: I would have liked stronger language in 1.1.2, but can live with
IJ handling changes for LC.
- SW: I'd +1 abstract
- TB has already +1 abstract
- Zakim
- DanCon, you wanted to suggest that the tag's decision to delegate
ext/vers to IJ/TBL/DO has timed out
- Ian
- DC: Extensibility/versioning stuff is back to the group now.
- Zakim
- timbl, you wanted to mention that 1.2.2 is not satisfactory and
meaning is different from that in the text Dave and I made in
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031111/tim
- Ian
- TBL: DO and I defined extensibility as meaning there's a provision
regarding forward compatibility.
- IJ: I Propose to work with TBL to get his/DO text into doc; I just
need to make it fit with doc.
- NW: I'm not thrilled with current wording in 3 Dec draft. I just sent
some grammatical corrections in this section; if accepted I'll bite my
tongue. I propose an alternative re: URN
- timbl
- timbl has the same problem with Norm's rewrite
- Roy
- See the Bristol IRC notes for my wording on extensibility
- Norm
- timbl, i tried only to fix the grammatical errors, not rewrite it
- timbl
- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031111/tim
- Ian
- [Review of TBL language in 1.2.2]
- "Clearly, an extension language is better than an incompatible
language, but in practice greater compatability is needed. Ideally, an
instance of the superset language, in many cases can be safely and
usefully processed as though it were in the subset language.
Extensability the property of a langauge that allows this. The original
language design can accomplish extensability by defining, for
predicable unknown extensions, the handling by implementations -- for
example that they be ignored (in some way) or should be considered
errors."
- Ian
- In 3 dec draft, there is this text: "Clearly, creating an extension
language is better for interoperability than creating an incompatible
language. In practice, even greater interoperability is required.
Ideally, it should be possible to interpret many instances of the
extension language as though the were instances of the subset
language."
- DanCon
- +1 to "Clearly, an extension language is better ..." para
- Norm
- Not until its grammatically correct
- DanCon
- I'd be happy to delegate to timbl, norm, and Ian
- Ian
- NW: Not sure I agree with extensibility as TBL defined.
- Resolved to extend meeting 30
minutes
- DanCon
- DanCon is here until we're decided to go last call
- TBray
- TBray is with Dan
- Ian
- SW: Who would object to extensibility text in 3 Dec draft.
- TBL: I'm currently objecting.
- DanCon
- I'd like to address timbl's objection
- Ian
- TBL: We say that HTML is extensibility since there's a convention to
ignore unknown tags.
- Norm
- Does this text work for Ian and TimBL?
- "Clearly, an extension language is better than an incompatible
language, but in practice greater compatability is desirable. Ideally,
many instances of the superset language can be safely and usefully
processed as though they were in the subset language. Languages that
exhibit this property are extensible. The original language design can
encourage extensibility by defining how implementations must handle
unknown extensions--for example, that they be ignored (in some way) or should be considered errors."
- Ian
- TBL: Key to extensibility is that you can treat instances in superset
as though in subset.
- Ian
- [NW reads his proposal]
- timbl
- +1
- DanCon
- I 2nd norm's text
- Ian
- +1
- Stuart
- +1
- TBray
- TBray will not object to any resolution of this issue
- Ian
- Resolved: Accept NW's proposed text as
substitute text in 1.2.2. IJ and TBL must agree on how to include in
the document.
- SW questions
- Stuart
- 2.4 URI Schemes: with https: what is the basis for stating
"Generic URI equivalence testing no longer works."? - remedy...
delete the assertion?
- 2.6 Fragment Identifiers: 3rd bullet is *very* wrong. The data
format specification details fragId semantics for references *to*
instances of 'F' *not* *from* instances of 'F'. I think you could
delete the 3rd bullet without harm.
- 4.5.5 Qnames in XML: 1st GPN
s/indistinguishable./indistinguishable from URIs./
- Ian
- TBray: On 2.4, this is true. String compare doesn't work anyway.
- IJ: I propose to change third bullet to say more something like "Now
you have 2 URIs that refer to the same resource, when you should only
have had one; and specs don't tell you that they refwer to the same
resource."
- TBray: Other things I think are problematic: First bullet point.
- DanCon
- which example?
- Ian
- 2.4 on https; I dont' want to lose the example.
- timbl
- "Because of the costs" in ....203/
- DanCon
- I see 10 or 15 example uris in 2.4...ah... because of.. thx
- q+ to suggest this is insufficiently reviewed; I'd need some time to
agree to this
- Ian
- Proposal: Lose first bullet.
- timbl
- "Now you have 2 URIs that refer to the same resource, when you should
only have had one; and specs don't tell you that they refwer to the
same resource"
- Ian
- Proposed change to third bullet: The fact that a resoruce has access
control does not change the nature of the resource. This scheme causes
authors to use two URis for the same resource where only one was
required, and specs don't let agents determine that the two refer to
the same resource.
- TBL Proposal: remove the entire example "The https....to end of
bulleted list"
- DanCon
- I concur with removal
- TBray
- +1
- Ian
- IJ can live with that.
- timbl
- shames += 2.4
- Ian
- TBray: I think IJ is right that this is valuable but undercooked.
- Resolved to accepted TBL's
proposal.
- DanCon
- yes, with regret, we are resolved
- timbl
- I agree that it is valuable but undercooked.
- TBray
- 2.6 Fragment Identifiers: 3rd bullet is *very* wrong. The data format
specification details fragId semantics for references *to* instances of
'F' *not* *from* instances of 'F'. I think you could delete the 3rd
bullet without harm.
- DanCon
- q+ to say huh? Ian was actioned to replace U/R with nadia/oxaca
- Ian
- Dan, I made those changes above, in the story.
- TBray
- currently: " If URI "U" identifies primary resource "R", and
- " a representation of "R" is in the data format "F", and
- " the data format specification for "F" specifies that fragment
identifiers in instances of "F" identify secondary resources, then
- DanCon
- DanCon isn't following
- TBray
- " a URI for the secondary resource identified within an instance of
"F" by fragment identifier "fragid" is "U#fragid".
- Roy
- I agree with TBL * DanCon wonders what tbl said that roy agrees
with
- oops -- buffer delay -- it was regarding 2.4 https
- DanCon
- odd... I thought "secondary resource" was going away
- Chris
- I thought we agreed to take out the "F" U" etc
- Ian
- I added the stuff requested by tag to story at beginning of
section.
- DanCon
- 3rd para? you mean 3rd bullet, timbl?
- TBray
- yes, he does
- Ian
- TBL: there's a missing piece - when the representation R is
interpreted according to F, and within it there is a fragid fragi
(which identifies a secondary resource S), then the URI for S is
U#fragid. Change variables as follows: s/F/L, s/fragid/F
- Action TBL/IJ/SW: Fix text in 2.6
- TBray: Please email changes to the list.
- [Agreed]
- Ian
- SW: Who supports the publication of 3 Dec modulo agreed changes and
what we've said?
- timbl
- paul: yes
- timbl
- yes
- Chris
- yes
- TBray
- Yes
- Norm
- Yes
- Ian
- Yes
- Stuart
- yes
- DanCon
- yes, where "those contingencies we discussed" invove Jacobs,
Williams, and Berners-Lee
- timbl
- RESOLVED: To publish as last call
modulo the agreed changes and contingencies invoving Jacobs, Williams,
and Berners-Lee
Note: After the meeting officially adjourned, both Roy
Fielding and David Orchard indicated their support for publishing a Last Call
document.
The TAG does not expect to cover these issues
2.3 Review of 3023-related actions
- Action CL 2003/10/27: Draft XML mime type thingy with Murata-san
2.4 Findings
See also TAG findings home page.
2.4.1 Expected new findings
Ian Jacobs for Stuart Williams and TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2003/12/06 15:42:48 $