IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-10-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:02:33 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:02:37 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:02:37 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre, Ben_Caldwell, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Matt, David_MacDonald
- 20:03:13 [Zakim]
- +??P19
- 20:03:18 [rscano]
- late regrets also from Roberto Castaldo
- 20:03:22 [wendy]
- regrets: Gregg, Andi, Loretta
- 20:03:30 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P19 is Cynthia_Shelly
- 20:03:30 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
- 20:03:30 [rscano]
- he phone me
- 20:04:28 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/agenda-issues.html
- 20:04:46 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=357
- 20:05:04 [wendy]
- other specs do it. we should do it, too.
- 20:05:16 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=358
- 20:05:26 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 20:05:46 [Zakim]
- + +1.703.225.aaaa
- 20:06:33 [wendy]
- zakim, +1.703.225.aaaa is Sailesh_Panchang
- 20:06:34 [Zakim]
- +Sailesh_Panchang; got it
- 20:06:41 [Zakim]
- +Avi_Arditti
- 20:06:55 [wendy]
- 358: yes, get rid of the [was *.*] in checkpoint text.
- 20:08:19 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=358
- 20:08:24 [Zakim]
- +Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 20:08:39 [wendy]
- for those people who are coming to WCAG 2.0 and not familiar with 1.0 don't need to mention.
- 20:08:45 [wendy]
- will need migration support from 1.0 to 2.0.
- 20:09:11 [wendy]
- diff between mentioning it and relying on it for understanding.
- 20:09:29 [wendy]
- ok to mention it, as long as understanding 2.0 doesn't rely on understanding 1.0.
- 20:09:37 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:09:37 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 20:11:21 [wendy]
- action john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract.
- 20:11:31 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=362
- 20:12:35 [wendy]
- Who benefits? less passive
- 20:12:53 [wendy]
- action: john will play around w/rewrite
- 20:12:58 [wendy]
- most people fine either way
- 20:13:17 [wendy]
- action: john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract.
- 20:13:45 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=378
- 20:16:59 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 20:16:59 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 20:17:22 [wendy]
- Ensure that interface created by content is operable by any user
- 20:17:48 [wendy]
- ensure that the interface provided by the content is operably by any user
- 20:18:04 [wendy]
- it is the controls in the content not the content itself
- 20:19:05 [sh1mmer]
- sh1mmer has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:19:35 [wendy]
- action: john and katie, reword guideline 2 taking this discussion into account.
- 20:19:45 [sh1mmer]
- sorry i am late. i confused the times (again)
- 20:20:17 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 20:20:27 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P0 is Tom_Croucher
- 20:20:27 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher; got it
- 20:20:36 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=392
- 20:20:37 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
- 20:20:37 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
- 20:20:44 [rscano]
- hitom
- 20:21:08 [sh1mmer]
- hi roberto
- 20:22:06 [wendy]
- currenlty says, "http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#audience
- 20:22:33 [wendy]
- what do we want to list? are there specific use cases to incorporate? this related to use cases and 2nd agenda item for today.
- 20:22:45 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=393
- 20:22:53 [Zakim]
- + +1.510.306.aabb
- 20:23:06 [wendy]
- zakim, +1.510 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 20:23:06 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
- 20:26:59 [wendy]
- zakim, who's talking?
- 20:27:09 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_MacDonald (51%), John_Slatin (79%), Avi_Arditti (9%)
- 20:27:41 [wendy]
- if currently meet WCAG 1.0 A, AA, AAA what need to do in WCAG 2.0?
- 20:28:14 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:28:33 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "report from ATAG mtg"
- 20:28:35 [wendy]
- ack Tom
- 20:30:10 [Zakim]
- +??P2
- 20:30:50 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P2 is Mike_Barta
- 20:30:50 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 20:31:11 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:31:11 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "report from ATAG mtg"
- 20:34:49 [wendy]
- atag could create their own profile of wcag 2.0 for their level 2
- 20:35:58 [wendy]
- action: wendy draft something about migration from 1.0 to 2.0.
- 20:37:44 [sh1mmer]
- ack Cynthia
- 20:38:08 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=398
- 20:38:57 [wendy]
- no objection if can find a graphic artist to make the icons.
- 20:39:16 [rscano]
- I can ask support to Kynn :)
- 20:39:21 [wendy]
- tom - i can turn it into the graphic if someone can come up with the ideas for image.
- 20:39:26 [rscano]
- he is IWA/HWG Member ;-)
- 20:39:44 [wendy]
- yvette made tetrahedron of 4 principles.
- 20:40:04 [wendy]
- each side has design principle
- 20:41:49 [wendy]
- action: kerstin do research about iconic representaiton of the 4 design principles.
- 20:42:08 [wendy]
- action: tom - if someone comes up with ideas for icons, conver to icons.
- 20:42:08 [Yvette]
- http://www.webeone.org/wcagtet.htm
- 20:42:21 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=399
- 20:42:45 [rscano]
- i've got it created here in my desk :)
- 20:43:47 [silvia]
- very nice!
- 20:44:15 [sh1mmer]
- Yvette I think i might have to print one out to keep on my desk now :)
- 20:44:20 [Yvette]
- :-)
- 20:45:39 [wendy]
- i've got william's verison on my desk. i'll have to print this new one out as a companion. :)
- 20:46:01 [Yvette]
- I freely donate all copyrights to the WG ;-)
- 20:46:41 [wendy]
- john willing to work with that example.
- 20:47:05 [wendy]
- action: John in rewrite replace "cannot see" with "cannot see well" (as an example)
- 20:47:30 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=388
- 20:49:03 [wendy]
- what's core in 2.0 should map to p1 in wcag 1.0
- 20:49:45 [rscano]
- i hope core should map to p2
- 20:50:47 [wendy]
- shift from some things more important for accessibility
- 20:52:01 [wendy]
- core/extended not explained in wcag 2.0.
- 20:52:41 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:53:05 [wendy]
- ack Tom
- 20:54:50 [wendy]
- in response to points about conformance scheme, gregg explained basis of core/extended. we should write that up and put into conformance section.
- 20:55:03 [wendy]
- not enough to have in conformance, also highlight in mapping/migration info.
- 20:55:32 [wendy]
- what is important for accessibility is from the user's perspective.
- 20:55:39 [wendy]
- not developer's.
- 20:55:48 [wendy]
- 2 issues:
- 20:56:00 [wendy]
- 1. need clear explanation for current distinction between core and extended.
- 20:56:11 [wendy]
- 2. then can discuss if that is the write basis or not
- 20:57:14 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0594.html
- 20:57:16 [wendy]
- ack David
- 20:57:49 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0187.html
- 20:58:18 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0595.html
- 20:58:58 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0096.html
- 20:59:32 [sh1mmer]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0594.html
- 21:00:09 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0208.html
- 21:00:31 [Yvette]
- Does Dialpad have a record function? :-)
- 21:01:12 [wendy]
- critique that said every success criteria could make critical diff between accessibility and not for some group so no longer any basiss for saying some checkpoints more important for accessibility than otheres, unless say some groups more important than others.
- 21:01:26 [wendy]
- did not want to do. thus, followed that we need diff basis to categorize checkpoitns and success criteria.
- 21:01:39 [wendy]
- thus reorg based on specific guidelines/checkpoints required modifications to default presentation or not.
- 21:01:48 [wendy]
- default presentation: concern about freedom of expression issues.
- 21:01:59 [wendy]
- not sure if stand up to constitutional rights in some countries.
- 21:03:38 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:04:58 [wendy]
- action: david write proposal for core/extended paragraph for conformance section based on list of relevant emails and jason's summary from today
- 21:05:29 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "Is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?"
- 21:05:45 [wendy]
- was the freedom of expression issues discussed with a lawyer? because don't think freedom of expression (for architects) impacts ramps in buildings.
- 21:06:02 [wendy]
- action: john talk with lawyer about freedom of expression issues.
- 21:06:20 [rscano]
- remember that every countries has local laws....
- 21:06:25 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:06:25 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?"
- 21:06:37 [wendy]
- is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?
- 21:06:38 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 21:06:42 [wendy]
- in europe, this it is the other way around.
- 21:06:43 [wendy]
- ack tom
- 21:07:43 [wendy]
- ack matt
- 21:08:20 [wendy]
- whether in every jurisdiction there is a freedom of expression law that trumps accessibility, if tell people "you can't write liks this" they will not follow our recommendations.
- 21:08:25 [wendy]
- we can't tell them how to communicate.
- 21:08:29 [wendy]
- ack cynthia
- 21:08:52 [wendy]
- a definition of art is not testable. there are many things that are not art that can not be rewritten.
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- e.g., IEEE spec
- 21:09:02 [rscano]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0521.html (i remember this for European Laws)
- 21:09:04 [wendy]
- e.g., Shakespeare
- 21:09:58 [wendy]
- ack Avi
- 21:11:39 [rscano]
- i can ask to italian lawyers about...
- 21:11:46 [rscano]
- (for our country)
- 21:11:54 [Yvette]
- I can ask a Dutch lawyer for the Netherlands
- 21:12:56 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=400
- 21:13:43 [wendy]
- what is meant by perceivable
- 21:13:50 [rscano]
- http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/perceivable
- 21:13:53 [wendy]
- john came up w/good definition on the mailing list
- 21:14:40 [Yvette]
- Dictionary.com: To become aware of directly through any of the senses, especially sight or hearing
- 21:14:56 [wendy]
- another issue: do we want intro paragraphs to each guideline?
- 21:15:31 [wendy]
- there are similar questions on other guidelines. thus, good idea to write intro for each guideline.
- 21:15:41 [wendy]
- or if they end up being called principles, then explain in intro.
- 21:15:43 [rscano]
- good idea
- 21:17:29 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "that depends on Javascript availability"
- 21:17:38 [wendy]
- i need to answer the door. brb
- 21:18:19 [wendy]
- back
- 21:18:26 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, who is speaking
- 21:18:26 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is speaking', sh1mmer
- 21:18:34 [Yvette]
- q-
- 21:19:05 [wendy]
- action: ben write intros for each guideline
- 21:20:24 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=432
- 21:20:39 [wendy]
- we've been trying to address for at least 3 years.
- 21:21:45 [wendy]
- continuation of discussion of write clearly checkpoint is most appropriate way to deal with this.
- 21:22:14 [wendy]
- related to previous core/extended issue.
- 21:22:37 [wendy]
- under current scheme, don't see how fit into core
- 21:23:34 [wendy]
- perhaps if core/extended better explained, this issue might subside.
- 21:24:54 [sh1mmer]
- ack cynthia
- 21:26:00 [wendy]
- add older users to lists of people who benefit for each checkpoint?
- 21:26:13 [wendy]
- lack of experience is not a disability.
- 21:26:31 [rscano]
- it is technical disability
- 21:26:42 [wendy]
- in Holland, focus on removing barriers not on disability.
- 21:26:46 [wendy]
- this document is about disability.
- 21:29:38 [wendy]
- action: john and katie include elderly in benefits sections
- 21:30:18 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- I see 11 open action items:
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john will play around w/rewrite [1]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-12-53
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract. [2]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-13-17
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john and katie, reword guideline 2 taking this discussion into account. [3]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-19-35
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy draft something about migration from 1.0 to 2.0. [4]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-58
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: kerstin do research about iconic representaiton of the 4 design principles. [5]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-41-49
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom - if someone comes up with ideas for icons, conver to icons. [6]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-42-08
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John in rewrite replace "cannot see" with "cannot see well" (as an example) [7]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-47-05
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: david write proposal for core/extended paragraph for conformance section based on list of relevant emails and jason's summary from today [8]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-04-58
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john talk with lawyer about freedom of expression issues. [9]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-06-02
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben write intros for each guideline [10]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-19-05
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john and katie include elderly in benefits sections [11]
- 21:30:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-38
- 21:30:26 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:30:28 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia_Shelly
- 21:30:29 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Croucher
- 21:30:30 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:30:31 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 21:30:32 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:30:33 [Zakim]
- -Avi_Arditti
- 21:30:33 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 21:30:33 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 21:30:34 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:30:35 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 21:30:37 [Zakim]
- -David_MacDonald
- 21:30:39 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 21:30:42 [rellero]
- bye