IRC log of rdfcore on 2003-08-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:57:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore
- 13:57:52 [danbri]
- danbri has changed the topic to: rdfcore 2003-08-01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0001.html
- 13:57:56 [danbri]
- hi kids
- 13:57:59 [em]
- em has changed the topic to: RDF Core Aug 1 teleconference
- 13:58:05 [danbri]
- danbri has changed the topic to: rdfcore 2003-08-01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0001.html
- 13:58:05 [em]
- zakim, this will be RDF
- 13:58:05 [Zakim]
- ok, em; I see SW_RDFCore()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 13:58:29 [Zakim]
- SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has now started
- 13:58:36 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 13:58:43 [bwm]
- Zakim, ??p13 is bwm
- 13:58:43 [Zakim]
- +bwm; got it
- 13:59:01 [Zakim]
- +EMiller
- 13:59:40 [Zakim]
- +FrankM
- 14:00:00 [gk]
- gk has joined #rdfcore
- 14:00:15 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 14:00:57 [DaveB]
- Zakim, ??P15 is ILRT
- 14:00:57 [Zakim]
- +ILRT; got it
- 14:00:58 [bwm]
- Zakim, ??p15 is ilrt
- 14:00:58 [Zakim]
- sorry, bwm, I do not recognize a party named '??p15'
- 14:01:07 [DaveB]
- Zakim, ILRT has jang, DaveB
- 14:01:07 [Zakim]
- +jang, DaveB; got it
- 14:02:38 [Zakim]
- +GrahamKlyne
- 14:03:49 [Zakim]
- +Danbri
- 14:04:15 [Daveb-scr]
- meeting starts
- 14:04:17 [Daveb-scr]
- roll call
- 14:04:22 [bwm]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:04:22 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see bwm, EMiller, FrankM, ILRT, GrahamKlyne, Danbri
- 14:04:23 [Zakim]
- ILRT has jang, DaveB
- 14:04:46 [Daveb-scr]
- regrets jjc, patrick
- 14:04:49 [Daveb-scr]
- item 3 agenda
- 14:04:57 [Daveb-scr]
- aob update on impl report
- 14:05:02 [Daveb-scr]
- - bwm
- 14:05:07 [Daveb-scr]
- item 4 telcon 8 aug
- 14:05:21 [Daveb-scr]
- jang volunteers if present (may be at risk)(
- 14:05:56 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: will look to see who is here next week
- 14:05:58 [Daveb-scr]
- no scribe recorded
- 14:06:01 [em]
- em at risk for next weeks telecon
- 14:06:12 [Daveb-scr]
- item 5 minutes
- 14:06:13 [Daveb-scr]
- approved
- 14:06:16 [Daveb-scr]
- item 6 compled actions
- 14:06:25 [Daveb-scr]
- frankm primer 4.5 action ...
- 14:06:34 [Daveb-scr]
- 20030718#5
- 14:06:45 [Daveb-scr]
- is actually done
- 14:07:08 [Daveb-scr]
- item 7 misc actions
- 14:07:23 [Daveb-scr]
- 20030425#10 old item
- 14:07:40 [Daveb-scr]
- continued
- 14:07:46 [Daveb-scr]
- 20030711#4 danc
- 14:07:53 [Daveb-scr]
- danc not present, continued
- 14:08:04 [Daveb-scr]
- item 8 Bel in plain literals
- 14:08:23 [Daveb-scr]
- some unicode characters are allowed inplain, not in xsd::strings
- 14:08:38 [Daveb-scr]
- also not legal in XML
- 14:08:50 [Daveb-scr]
- ongoing work by PatH to construct words
- 14:09:23 [Daveb-scr]
- gk: already have unserialized graphs that can't be written in XML
- 14:11:02 [Daveb-scr]
- desription of PatH's new wording (ptr anyone)
- 14:11:05 [Daveb-scr]
- item 9 i18n update
- 14:11:13 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm went to telcon
- 14:11:20 [Daveb-scr]
- i18n telcon tuesday
- 14:11:50 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Dean
- 14:12:04 [Daveb-scr]
- find out what they care about
- 14:12:22 [em]
- q+ to ask about bwm's insight on what i18n cares about
- 14:13:21 [gk]
- q+ to asj if they *can* raise a formal objection afdter end of LC
- 14:13:26 [Daveb-scr]
- ack gk
- 14:13:26 [Zakim]
- gk, you wanted to asj if they *can* raise a formal objection afdter end of LC
- 14:13:49 [em]
- q?
- 14:14:00 [bwm]
- q?
- 14:14:05 [bwm]
- ack em
- 14:14:05 [Zakim]
- em, you wanted to ask about bwm's insight on what i18n cares about
- 14:14:31 [Daveb-scr]
- earlier, em: yes they can, post LC there was a change
- 14:14:49 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: trying to get a better understanding
- 14:15:34 [Daveb-scr]
- issue 1 - markup integrity
- 14:15:58 [Daveb-scr]
- concern is that if you pick up some markup out of an xml document and you have to modify it to record a language tag such as html with lang in scope...
- 14:16:12 [Daveb-scr]
- if you have to <span> that, you've modified it and you may not be able to recover the markup you started with
- 14:16:36 [Daveb-scr]
- length discussion
- 14:17:34 [Daveb-scr]
- need a more precise use case
- 14:17:40 [Daveb-scr]
- since there doesn't seem to be a standard way to do this
- 14:17:49 [Daveb-scr]
- issue 2 - mixed text, quite similar
- 14:18:16 [Daveb-scr]
- example is, say you build a web scraper of and make an rdf databse of the words, some of which have lang tags
- 14:18:25 [Daveb-scr]
- scenario, the concern is mixed text
- 14:18:57 [Daveb-scr]
- issue 3 - comparing plain literals with xml literals
- 14:19:23 [Daveb-scr]
- such as "plain"-en and an xml literal with same text "plain"
- 14:19:33 [Daveb-scr]
- and martin wants them to be the same (?)
- 14:21:23 [gk]
- q+ to ask if the I18N issues all revolve around lang tags, or is there more?
- 14:21:34 [Daveb-scr]
- em: about seeing this as xml
- 14:29:45 [em]
- q+
- 14:30:15 [Daveb-scr]
- impact on schedule
- 14:31:29 [gk]
- q-
- 14:32:00 [gk]
- q+ to say the change of direction at this stage would incur a bit timescale hit
- 14:34:18 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 14:34:32 [Daveb-scr]
- Zakim, ??P0 is JosD
- 14:34:32 [Zakim]
- +JosD; got it
- 14:34:45 [Daveb-scr]
- discussion of LC issue with objections
- 14:35:35 [em]
- ack em
- 14:35:39 [gk]
- q-
- 14:36:40 [Daveb-scr]
- still some changes to value space of xml literal, may be in works
- 14:36:57 [JosD]
- JosD has joined #rdfcore
- 14:36:58 [Daveb-scr]
- item 10 primer
- 14:38:09 [Daveb-scr]
- updates monday
- 14:39:05 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: I owe you a review, will only be critical things
- 14:39:16 [Daveb-scr]
- em: will look tomorrow morning (sat) quick scan
- 14:39:20 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: plan for an update monday
- 14:39:29 [Daveb-scr]
- item 11 concepts
- 14:39:37 [Daveb-scr]
- gk: had some editorial suggestions
- 14:40:21 [Daveb-scr]
- xml literal still need changes
- 14:40:29 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: pfps 22, 23?
- 14:41:07 [Daveb-scr]
- (w00t, rdf syntax doc first edited 2001-07-20, happy birthday)
- 14:41:49 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTION bwm will take a pass through concepts and send jeremy a todo list ASAP
- 14:41:58 [Daveb-scr]
- ... aide to jjc in order to catchup
- 14:42:03 [Daveb-scr]
- gk: relatievly little todo
- 14:42:11 [Daveb-scr]
- item 12 syntax
- 14:42:16 [danbri]
- Also 2 years today since 1st f2f meeting: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/
- 14:42:32 [gk]
- q+ to mention macintiosh file type (syntax/mime docs)
- 14:43:00 [Daveb-scr]
- dveb: to add svg, xml literal change - will propose
- 14:43:28 [gk]
- q-
- 14:43:35 [Daveb-scr]
- gk: want mime types to be consistent
- 14:43:42 [bwm]
- q?
- 14:43:51 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTION daveb: sync with aaron with mime type and make sure the docs are consitent - use same mac type
- 14:44:32 [Daveb-scr]
- daveb: will send wording for syntax xml literal words
- 14:45:39 [Daveb-scr]
- item 13 schema
- 14:45:41 [danbri]
- RDFS status update, details in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0016.html
- 14:46:19 [Daveb-scr]
- (on item 12l, daveb notes svg stuff reviwed by chrisL, happy. xml literal to mailing list today)
- 14:47:12 [danbri]
- pfps-11 propsoal from peter: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0014.html
- 14:47:52 [Daveb-scr]
- on pfps-11 response, still might ened more changes, want review
- 14:48:05 [Daveb-scr]
- working on todo list
- 14:48:24 [Daveb-scr]
- new issue roland schwartzl, error in comments of rdfs:comment of rdfs:member
- 14:48:31 [Daveb-scr]
- needs a rewording
- 14:48:55 [Daveb-scr]
- anyone got an alternative wording for this, please tell danbri
- 14:49:05 [Daveb-scr]
- on admin managing of namespaces
- 14:49:12 [Daveb-scr]
- updating rdf schemas at namespace URIs
- 14:49:33 [Daveb-scr]
- we currently have some things in the rdf schema is a single overview of all the vocabs
- 14:49:43 [Daveb-scr]
- need to put things at the 2 namespace uris
- 14:50:06 [Daveb-scr]
- looks like we can do this, after confirming with emiller
- 14:50:15 [Daveb-scr]
- danbri asks for help with this splitting up work
- 14:51:54 [danbri]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-schema-20030117/rdfs-namespace.xml is the only RDFS description of our classes and properties. Currently it does both sets of classes/properties at once.
- 14:52:31 [Daveb-scr]
- em: q - how do the namespace docs and TR space intersect?
- 14:52:45 [Daveb-scr]
- ideally, would be in sync
- 14:52:54 [Daveb-scr]
- and mimetypes are what we say
- 14:53:13 [Daveb-scr]
- stylesheets for human views of it, still with machine content
- 14:53:13 [bwm]
- q?
- 14:53:22 [Daveb-scr]
- no zakim, it died
- 14:53:37 [danbri]
- eek
- 14:53:40 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #rdfcore
- 14:53:57 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: step 1 is to have the 2 documents ready
- 14:54:12 [em]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:54:12 [Zakim]
- sorry, em, I don't know what conference this is
- 14:54:13 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Zakim, JosD, gk, RRSAgent, danbri, Daveb-scr, bwm, em, logger
- 14:54:15 [Daveb-scr]
- danbri: it's taking the rdf schema appendix doc apart and checking it
- 14:54:18 [em]
- zakim, this is RDF
- 14:54:18 [Zakim]
- ok, em
- 14:54:49 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTION bwm: help danbri split the rdf schema appendix into the 2 new namespace URIs rdf schema documents
- 14:55:05 [danbri]
- help needed reviewing pfps-11 response, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0014.html
- 14:55:20 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTIOn jang: review pfps-11 response in aug/0014
- 14:55:28 [em]
- (i thought we, er maybe I, did this... this -- design rdf schemas for m&s and vocab)
- 14:55:39 [Daveb-scr]
- above action "by monday"
- 14:56:37 [Daveb-scr]
- group concurred with danbri change to rdfs:member comment
- 14:56:39 [Daveb-scr]
- item 13 schema
- 14:56:40 [Daveb-scr]
- no path
- 14:56:40 [Daveb-scr]
- item 14
- 14:57:00 [Daveb-scr]
- NO item test cases
- 14:57:20 [Daveb-scr]
- jang: on arjon bagid, not a problem, will reply
- 14:57:40 [Daveb-scr]
- jang: on dave/hp, only one significant on rdf-seq-rep, sitll applies
- 14:57:53 [Daveb-scr]
- s/NO/item 15/ # oops
- 14:58:21 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTION jang: respond to daveR on comments to testcases
- 14:58:31 [Daveb-scr]
- ... on zip, will rebuild
- 14:59:08 [Daveb-scr]
- jang: the things are in the axiomatic triples
- 14:59:28 [Daveb-scr]
- s/things/seq container membership/
- 14:59:34 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: a mistake?
- 14:59:41 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: yes, they are present
- 14:59:54 [danbri]
- OK, rdfs:member definition updated.
- 15:00:03 [Daveb-scr]
- shame to have test cases that fwd reasoners will fail on
- 15:00:36 [Daveb-scr]
- jang: fwd reasoners will have to look at entailments they are testing as well as the input graph. It is possivle to vuld these without infinent set of triples being generated
- 15:01:22 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: we can avoid some of these probles
- 15:01:27 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: error on facets
- 15:03:22 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: most implemetnations treat " 3 " as a valid XSD int, not invalid (which is what XSD specs say)
- 15:03:41 [Daveb-scr]
- ACTION bwm put the invalid xsd int on jjc's todo list
- 15:04:46 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: negative entailment tests aren't so useful,since not finding them isn't conclusive
- 15:04:55 [Daveb-scr]
- positive entailemtn are, and in good shape
- 15:05:13 [Daveb-scr]
- item AOB implementation report
- 15:05:34 [em]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/
- 15:05:54 [danbri]
- (did the meeting get extended officially yet? are we going to half-past?)
- 15:06:49 [Daveb-scr]
- em: waiting from c# impl
- 15:06:53 [Daveb-scr]
- (Drive)
- 15:06:56 [Daveb-scr]
- jos: we have one
- 15:07:30 [em]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/tools
- 15:07:41 [danbri]
- ...eulersharp. I can confirm I've had this running under dotgnu (w/ help from mdupont)
- 15:07:51 [Daveb-scr]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030331-advance.html
- 15:07:59 [Daveb-scr]
- em: daveb, josd please get back to me
- 15:08:06 [em]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/reports
- 15:08:36 [Daveb-scr]
- http://sourceforge.net/projects/eulersharp
- 15:08:45 [Daveb-scr]
- ^- josd c# app
- 15:09:11 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: not just langs, coverage
- 15:09:23 [Daveb-scr]
- ... need to demostrate interop
- 15:09:28 [Daveb-scr]
- of everything
- 15:09:30 [Daveb-scr]
- how about schema?
- 15:09:59 [Daveb-scr]
- em: in temrs of entailment?
- 15:10:31 [Daveb-scr]
- jang: 2 ays - inference engine, or an imperative API that can ask questions involving rdfs-entailemntn
- 15:10:54 [Daveb-scr]
- danbri: also graphical editors and users of the vocabulary
- 15:11:12 [Daveb-scr]
- eM identifying criteria for success
- 15:11:51 [Daveb-scr]
- our test cases are for design, not for conformance
- 15:12:15 [Daveb-scr]
- (for e.g. TAP does rdfs)
- 15:12:26 [gk]
- q+ to note that IETF criteria is 2 interoperable implementations of each normative feature
- 15:12:45 [gk]
- q-
- 15:12:50 [Daveb-scr]
- [gk: how would you measure a normative feature?]
- 15:13:23 [gk]
- [Dave, that's fuzzy, but often it is described using RFC2119 language]
- 15:13:49 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: euler currently fails 5 tests
- 15:14:06 [Daveb-scr]
- 3store 2.2.8 "Now produces all RDF entailments except RDFS10
- 15:14:06 [Daveb-scr]
- (ContatinerMembershipProperty)"
- 15:14:33 [Daveb-scr]
- [scribe: I assume that means RDF, RDFS]
- 15:15:07 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: some failures are the xsd " 5 " being valid
- 15:15:26 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: Jena2/DaveR also gets this, same libraries underneath report this as OK
- 15:15:55 [Daveb-scr]
- [scribe: note action to bwm for jjc includes to look at xmlsch-02]
- 15:17:58 [danbri]
- surnia
- 15:18:00 [Daveb-scr]
- em: expecting a report from cwm and from sandro - surnia (sp?)
- 15:18:51 [Zakim]
- +PatH
- 15:19:18 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm, back to item 14 semantics
- 15:19:30 [Daveb-scr]
- Path: fixed bug re rdfs inconsistency
- 15:20:04 [Daveb-scr]
- ... it seems to cover it, as far as I can tell
- 15:20:24 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: your mionor tweak tot he value space seems appropriate
- 15:21:35 [Daveb-scr]
- (/me just noticed the Conformance section for syntax drafted last week isn't there, will need to get an ack on that)
- 15:22:44 [Daveb-scr]
- path: " 2 "^^xsd:int is a literla, just whether it denotes a (??)semantic value
- 15:23:39 [Daveb-scr]
- PatH: the emptyg raph does not entail _:1 rdf:type rdf:Property
- 15:23:42 [Daveb-scr]
- but rdf-entail, yes
- 15:23:58 [Daveb-scr]
- (rdf:_1) above
- 15:24:31 [Daveb-scr]
- josd: and for containermembership properties? somewher you say these are axiomatic
- 15:25:11 [Daveb-scr]
- PatH: will check. yes, because the defn of rdf-entail true in all interp 'cos it include simple entailment too
- 15:25:47 [Zakim]
- -PatH
- 15:25:56 [Daveb-scr]
- back to item 16 impl report
- 15:26:18 [Daveb-scr]
- q+ conformance of syntax
- 15:26:28 [Daveb-scr]
- q+ to something on conformance of syntax
- 15:27:07 [JosD]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/rqim.html
- 15:28:02 [Daveb-scr]
- [* finish resolving dependency on RDF Core specs, esp. RDF Semantics]
- 15:30:08 [danbri]
- q+ to note that http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema is both updated and now served as application/rdf+xml
- 15:30:59 [bwm]
- ack daveB
- 15:30:59 [Zakim]
- Daveb-scr, you wanted to something on conformance of syntax
- 15:32:38 [Daveb-scr]
- ack Daveb-scr
- 15:33:29 [bwm]
- ack danbri
- 15:33:29 [Zakim]
- danbri, you wanted to note that http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema is both updated and now served as application/rdf+xml
- 15:34:34 [Daveb-scr]
- em: want help with impl report
- 15:34:41 [Daveb-scr]
- Daveb-scr: how much do you pay?
- 15:35:04 [Daveb-scr]
- bwm: docs ready next week? feasible?
- 15:35:14 [gk]
- Is jeremy back next week?
- 15:37:56 [Daveb-scr]
- PR/CR proposal next week
- 15:38:02 [Daveb-scr]
- prepare to vote next week
- 15:38:12 [Daveb-scr]
- end of meeting
- 15:38:14 [Daveb-scr]
- ---
- 15:38:55 [Zakim]
- -FrankM
- 15:38:56 [Zakim]
- -GrahamKlyne
- 15:38:57 [Zakim]
- -JosD
- 15:39:01 [Zakim]
- -Danbri
- 15:39:04 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Dean
- 15:39:14 [em]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:39:14 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see bwm, EMiller, ILRT
- 15:39:15 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Zakim, JosD, gk, RRSAgent, danbri, Daveb-scr, bwm, em, logger
- 15:39:39 [em]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/tools
- 15:39:44 [em]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/reports
- 15:40:07 [gk]
- [Thinking about Concepts todo for j: look for responses on rdf-comments, XML literals, is all I can think of]
- 15:41:07 [Daveb-scr]
- daveb: missing particular is 3store
- 15:44:04 [Daveb-scr]
- collecting pointers to (reports => announcements) - 3store, sesame, off my htop of my head
- 15:47:05 [Daveb-scr]
- 2 impls of every (thing, test case)
- 15:47:42 [Daveb-scr]
- contact groups on semantics side
- 15:47:54 [Daveb-scr]
- point at impl requests, get to run testa, make announcements on archived lists
- 15:48:00 [Daveb-scr]
- draft of conformance for rdf/xml
- 15:48:13 [Daveb-scr]
- is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0250.html
- 15:49:36 [Daveb-scr]
- also should check http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/30/practicalRDF.html
- 15:52:48 [Zakim]
- -ILRT
- 15:52:49 [Zakim]
- -EMiller
- 15:52:50 [Zakim]
- -bwm
- 15:52:52 [Zakim]
- SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended
- 15:53:48 [em]
- rragent, please leave
- 15:53:52 [em]
- rrsagent, please leave
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items:
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: daveb to sync with aaron with mime type and make sure the docs are consitent - use same mac type [1]
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-43-51
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: bwm to help danbri split the rdf schema appendix into the 2 new namespace URIs rdf schema documents [2]
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-54-49
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jang to respond to daveR on comments to testcases [3]
- 15:53:52 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-58-21