Web Services Architecture Working Group
25 JULY 2002 meeting minutes

Working Group home page · Meeting records

This is the complete version, possibly with confidential material, of the minutes.

Attendance

Present: Apple Mike Brumbelow; AT&T Mark Jones; BEA Systems David Orchard; Boeing Company Gerald Edgar; Cisco Systems Inc Sandeep Kumar; Computer Associates Igor Sedukhin; Contivo Dave Hollander>; CrossWeave, Inc. Timothy Jones; Documentum Don Robertson>; Ericsson Nilo Mitra; Exodus/Digital Island Joseph Hui; IBM Chris Ferris; IBM Heather Kreger; Idokorro Mobile Mark Baker; Macromedia Glen Daniels; MartSoft Corp. Jin Yu; Microsoft Corporation Henrik Nielsen; Nortel Networks Abbie Barbir; Rogue Wave Software Jim Shur; Software AG Michael Champion; Sun Microsystems, Inc. Doug Bunting; W. W. Grainger, Inc. Tom Carroll; W3C Hugo Haas; W3C David Booth /dd>
Regrets: AT&T Ayse Dilber; Carnegie Mellon University Katia Sycara; ChevronTexaco Roger Cutler; Cisco Systems Inc Krishna Sankar; EDS Waqar Sadiq; Intel Corporation Sharad Garg; Intel Corporation Joel Munter; MITRE Corporation James Davenport; MITRE Corporation Paul Denning; SAP Sinisa Zimek; SeeBeyond Technology Corp Ugo Corda; SeeBeyond Technology Corp Alan Davies; Sterling Commerce(SBC) Suresh Damodaran; Sun Microsystems, Inc. Mark Hapner; Sybase, Inc. Himagiri Mukkamala; TIBCO Software, Inc. Scott Vorthmann; T-Nova Deutsche Telekom Jens Meinkoehn; W. W. Grainger, Inc. Daniel Austin; webMethods, Inc. Prasad Yendluri; DISA Marcel Jemio
Absent: Artesia Technologies Dipto Chakravarty; AT&T Steve Monetti (alt); DaimlerChrysler Research Mario Jeckle; DaimlerChrysler Research Hans-Peter Steiert; EDS Mike Ballantyne; France Telecom Shishir Garg; Fujitsu Frank McCabe; Hewlett-Packard Company Yin-Leng Husband; Hewlett-Packard Company Zulah Eckert; IONA Steve Vinoski; IONA Eric Newcomer; Ipedo Srinivas Pandrangi; Ipedo Alex Cheng; Macromedia Tom Jordahl>; MartSoft Corp. Jun Chen; Microsoft Corporation Allen Brown>; Nokia Michael Mahan>; OASIS Hal Lockhart; Oracle Corporation Martin Chapman>; Oracle Corporation Jeff Mischkinsky; Progress Colleen Evans; Systinet Anne Thomas Manes; The Thomson Corporation Hao He; VeriSign, Inc. Michael Mealling; XQRL Inc. Daniela Florescud; Waveset Technologies Darran Rolls; XQRL Inc. Tom Bradford

Agenda

See agenda posted by the Chair.

Detailed minutes

Minutes of the WSAWG telcon 7/25

Scribe: Nilo Mitra (Ericsson)

Hugo thanked Chris for serving as chair.

Approval of Minutes of last week'smeeting:

Discussion on whether we agreed last week to publish the glossary.Different people have differing recollections. Awaiting input from Alan Brown. Minutes amended to reviewing the decision to release the glossarydocument. With this amendment, minutes approved.

Action items: 1st one DONE 2nd one NOT DONE

Last call feedback comments to XMLP: Hugo and Yin-Leng reviewed SOAP spec. Chris provided composite list of comments. We areslightly late. Only one comment received to Chris' composite list from Hugo.

Hugo feels that the spec is not clear on one aspect byt Chris said this wasdebated extensively and would open a can of worms.

Glen said he does not see SOAP 1.2 features and how they bind to binding; may be a higher level architectural issue. This has been raised in the WS desc group.

Henrik said that there are many things SOAP does not define, inlcuding tricky architectural issues. Hugo said that some of the comments were not purely architectural. He tried to maintain a separation, but Dave O said that he did not see what the SOAp 1.2 should do with Glen's comments.

Glen does not require a change in this version of the spec. He said that the property based feature could be taken out of the SOAp spec and put in another spec -produced by the Arch group. It does not need to be factored out in thisversion for last call.

Dave O said that taking things out of a spec can bedone post last call. Hugo said that the matter of MEPs came up in thecoordination group. Henrik wants to separate what is in SOAP 1.2 versus architecture issues. He does not see any problem in having some concepts in various specs, and having the arch group tie it all together.

Mark Jones feels that this should be brought to the SOAP spec as a LC issue. This may behelpful in getting it on the table when XMLP contemplates rechartering. DaveH(?) said that we should send a quick message saying that we should discussarch issues when XMLP have finished their LC work.

dave O thinks it shouldbe a LC comment. Need to get in a comment about it.

Dave H says unless wehave an alternative place to put the information, we would interfere with their publication.

Dave O says we need to say that something along the lines that we need to work together on a refactoring and rebalancing of architectural issues in the spec.

Chris said he's reluctant to recommend that something from the spec. This should be discussed at the CG level.

Henrik also would not like to say anything about rebalancing until we have aclear idea of the issues.

ACTION ITEM: Dave O to draft a note to the CG about the need for coordination/rebablancing. Will circulate to the WG.

Hugo asked for his comments to be reinstated. Chris says he has strong feelings about that, as the XMLP has discussed this at length and we should not reopen the issue. Hugo said that the original wording from Noah/Glen has changed since the telcon where the original wording was approved. He says that the current wording - more sloppy - can cause an interoperability issue.

Glen provided some explanation of the "must happen" aspect. Hugo retracts his comments. All agree that comments should be forwarded as drafted by Chris.

ACTION ITEM: Chairs to forward comments to XMLP.

D-AG003: Hugo to resolve this. Got a +1 from Mark Baker but no other comments. Chris provided somec larifying comments. No objections to putting Hugo's resolution in the requirements document.

Hugo continued with D-AC011. Got comments from Heather. Discussion about how to replace the word "roughly". Suggestions included "non-normatively", "for example". Agreed to change "roughly" to"generally" and "existing" dropped.

D-AC011.2 accepted.

D-AC011.2.1dropped.

D-AC011.2.2 dropped.

D-AC010.1 proposal accepted.

D-AC??? ???? Proposed a new one AC011.3. Mark B would like the word "architectural component" must be clarified. ??? said the word 'component" is dangerous.Chris said that we know what we mean. We won't get very far debating it. Noone objects to it being in as worded by Hugo.

D-AC021 on deviceindependence. No objections to adopting.

D-AR021.1. This came from Mike Mahan, Zulah, Sharad. No objections to adopting it.

D-AR021.1. Hugo does not understand this. He'd like to follow the policy that if it is not clear, dropit. Zulah would not object to dropping it, but she'd like to hear from theproponents. Chris said don't remove it until those who proposed it are hereto defend it. Agreed to leave it in.

D-AR021.3 accepted.

D-AR003.2 described by Dave Hollander. Proposal is to drop it. No discussion on his email. Someone wanted to defer this. Mike said we are tring to resolve these. No one else objects to dropping it. Accept the consensus that we should drop this.

Zulah spoke about D-AC018. RTF has been noodling on thisfor some time. Hugo has had a hard time understanding. Is he the only one? It seems harmless having it there but how will it be achieved. No one else had comments. Agreed to accept as provided. Zulah had another proposal - message #437 in July. Accepted.

Zulah had another proposal on AC019.1. Dave H had a suggestion that the WG be given adequate time to comment. Chris said that we really need to clear the draft status from these. Zulah said it was not clear if it should be left in draft status or remove them altogether.

Agreed to removing draft status of 19.1.1.

Zulah continued with 19.1.3. on reliable messaging. MB had an objection but has withdrawn it. No one objected to removing the draft status of 19.1.3.

Mike asked Hugo about procedural constraints. Hugo said these are small. If editors can put these changes in, then it can be published as a second WD. Dave O objects to this. Chris said that he has not seen the edits from last week. He can try to get in touch with Daniel. <<lots of background noise>> Dave H said he'd like to have the WG have time to review and identify missing items/issues.

Friendly amendment to approve release of document now, but allow WG three days to review it. No requirements editors on the call, save Chris. Chris can try to do it, but not till later. Tom agreed to talk to Daniel to get a draft together in the shortest possible time. Hugo asked if Chris or Daniel can do it by Monday; so that it can be reviewed for three days and send it in for publication by Thursday. Chris agreed. Tom will convey message to Daniel.

Joe sent out D-AG004.

Next meeting is in September. Zakim bridge available for informal meetings during August. Meeting adjourned 5:05 pm.

Review of outstanding action items

19:49:19 [Zakim]: +??P12
19:50:45 [hugo]: DONE: ACTION: DaveH to rework D-AR003.3
19:50:59 [DaveH]: Action to Mike C - amend minutes and release
19:51:21 [hugo]: ACTION: Mike C - amend minutes and release
19:52:08 [hugo]: ACTION: Daniel to propose revised D-AC002.2 and sub-csfs/req'ts for next week's call [PENDING]
19:53:15 [Zakim]: +??P28
19:53:17 [AllenBr]: AllenBr has joined #ws-arch
19:53:48 [Zakim]: -??P10
19:55:39 [DaveO]: q+
19:56:17 [hugo]: q+
19:57:27 [mchampion]: ack daveo
20:00:03 [Henrik]: q+
20:01:06 [mchampion]: ack hugo
20:02:04 [mchampion]: ack henrik
20:03:58 [DaveH]: DaveH has joined #ws-arch
20:06:05 [DaveH]: q+
20:06:30 [mchampion]: ack DaveH
20:07:25 [Henrik]: q+
20:08:30 [mchampion]: ack henrik
20:10:28 [Zakim]: -??P11
20:11:10 [Zakim]: +??P11
20:11:59 [DaveH]: who was doing the action item?
20:12:59 [DaveH]: ACTION: DaveO to draft note to XMLP and CG
20:13:15 [Zakim]: +??P35
20:13:52 [Henrik]: q+
20:14:37 [Henrik]: q-
20:15:55 [DaveH]: ACTION: Chairs - note to xmlp wg
20:15:57 [hugo]: ACTION: DaveO to draft email to CG and XMLPWG about SOAP features being architectural
20:18:54 [Zakim]: -JinYu
20:20:50 [DaveH]: AC11 - stike words "roughly" and "future"
20:22:09 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AG003 adopted as in Hugo's proposal
20:24:07 [DaveH]: RESOLVED: DAG003 replace word roughly with generally
20:24:09 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AC011 adopted without "existing" and s/roughly/generally/
20:25:00 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AC011.2 adopted
20:25:57 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AC011.2.1 dropped
20:26:02 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AC011.2.2 dropped
20:28:55 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AR011.1 dropped
20:29:00 [hugo]: oops
20:29:08 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AR011.1 adopted
20:29:32 [DaveH]: ACTION: Editors - AC0010.1 - needs to be updated in requirements doc per f2f minutes
20:30:30 [DaveO]: How about architectural aspect instead of component?
20:31:19 [hugo]: RESOLVED: new D-AC011.3 adopted
20:31:55 [DaveO]: I have to drop off now, sorry.. I'll rejoin partway through the USTF call.
20:32:00 [MarkB]: yah, that would have worked
20:32:08 [Zakim]: -DOrchard
20:32:12 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AC021 adopted
20:32:14 [MarkB]: not a biggie though, we have bigger terminology issues than that one 8-)
20:33:32 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AR021.1 adopted
20:35:53 [DaveH]: RESOLVED: D-AR003.2 dropped
20:36:09 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AR021.2 adopted
20:36:48 [hugo]: RESOLVED: D-AR021.3 adopted
20:36:58 [DaveO]: Is it possible for the scribe to scribe a bit of the discussion into IRC? I'm only seeing action resolutions and none of the discussions and topics.
20:37:00 [DaveO]: ?
20:43:05 [hugo]: URI: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Jul/0436.html
20:43:21 [Zakim]: -Dale_Moberg
20:44:30 [Zakim]: -??P13
20:48:53 [DaveH]: ERROR - OLVED: D-AR003.2 dropped
20:48:58 [DaveH]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Jul/0437.html
20:53:31 [MarkB]: DaveO; everyone's agreeing with me, you should really be here to see it. 8-)
20:53:55 [Zakim]: -Mark_A_Jones
20:54:00 [DaveO]: What are they all agreeing with?
20:54:16 [MarkB]: everything I say, it's quite amazing. We're adopting REST. (note the 8-)
20:54:33 [DaveO]: heh
20:56:13 [Zakim]: +DOrchard
20:56:28 [hugo]: q+
20:58:34 [TC]: cann't hear
20:58:38 [hugo]: Zakim, who is talking?
20:58:49 [Zakim]: hugo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P2 (19%), DavidB (34%), ??P14 (18%), GlenD (15%), Dave_Hollander (33%)
20:59:30 [MarkB]: coooool feature
20:59:54 [DaveO]: +1. Zakim gets cooler by the day.
21:00:32 [dbooth]: Requirements editors:
21:00:33 [dbooth]: Daniel Austin, W. W. Grainger, Inc. <austin.d@ic.grainger.com>
21:00:33 [dbooth]: Abbie Barbir, Nortel Networks, Inc. <abbieb@nortelnetworks.com>
21:00:33 [dbooth]: Sharad Garg, The Intel Corporation <sharad.garg@intel.com>
21:01:01 [dougb]: Zakim, when will you pass the Turing test? Be even more cool?
21:01:02 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, dougb.
21:01:42 [DaveH]: Zakim, just get with it!
21:01:43 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'just get with it!', DaveH. Try /msg Zakim help
21:02:07 [dougb]: Dave, Zakim isn't quite that cool (yet)
21:04:06 [DaveO]: zakim, do what I mean.
21:04:07 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'do what I mean.', DaveO. Try /msg Zakim help
21:04:23 [Zakim]: -??P12
21:04:34 [hugo]: so did we agree to publish after 3-day review?
21:05:03 [DaveH]: I believe so...we should affirm that
21:05:10 [hugo]: agreed
21:05:30 [Zakim]: -??P11
21:05:49 [DaveH]: Final discussion next week
21:05:59 [dougb]: Informal mtg. next week but a "final" discussion during that time?
21:06:29 [hugo]: basically, if nobody screams, we publish
21:06:30 [Zakim]: -Henrik?
21:06:34 [DaveH]: email is also available to note issues
21:06:37 [Zakim]: -Tim_Jones
21:06:38 [Zakim]: -??P35
21:06:43 [Tim_Jones]: Tim_Jones has left #ws-arch
21:06:56 [Zakim]: -??P1
21:06:58 [Zakim]: -GlenD
21:06:59 [Zakim]: -MarkB?
21:07:00 [Zakim]: -??P6
21:07:02 [Zakim]: -??P14
21:07:03 [Zakim]: -Igor_Sedukhin
21:07:04 [Zakim]: -??P27
21:07:05 [Zakim]: -??P3
21:07:06 [joe]: joe has left #WS-ARCH
21:07:07 [Zakim]: -??P16
21:07:09 [Zakim]: -??P2
21:07:14 [Zakim]: -DavidB
21:07:16 [Zakim]: -??P28
21:08:10 [DaveH]: ACTION: Chairs to review USTF meeting time
21:08:13 [Zakim]: -??P24
21:08:13 [Zakim]: -??P15
21:08:15 [Zakim]: -Hugo
21:08:21 [hugo]: Zakim, please excuse us
21:08:22 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ws-arch
21:08:27 [hugo]: RRSAgent, please excuse us
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: I see 7 open action items:
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Mike C - amend minutes and release [1]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T19-51-21
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Daniel to propose revised D-AC002.2 and sub-csfs/req'ts for next week's call [PENDING] [2]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T19-52-08
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: DaveO to draft note to XMLP and CG [3]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T20-12-59
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Chairs - note to xmlp wg [4]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T20-15-55
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: DaveO to draft email to CG and XMLPWG about SOAP features being architectural [5]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T20-15-57
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Editors - AC0010.1 - needs to be updated in requirements doc per f2f minutes [6]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T20-29-32
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Chairs to review USTF meeting time [7]
21:08:27 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/25-ws-arch-irc#T21-08-10

Summary of new action items

Please report here a list of the new action items.

See also the list of pending action items.