zakim, who's here trackbot, start telcon * trackbot is preparing a teleconference. * RRSAgent (rrsagent@team.cloak) has joined logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/27-webfonts-irc RRSAgent, make logs world I have made the request, trackbot * Zakim (zakim@team.cloak) has joined Zakim, this will be 3668 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference Date: 27 May 2015 oh zakim, get your act together * jfkthame (~jfkthame@team.cloak) has joined I want to believe that's a command zakim, this will be webfonts I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ChrisL * ChrisL sighs, checks booking * RRSAgent has quit (Client closed connection) * Zakim has quit (Client closed connection) IA_Fonts()10:00AM Started at 13:55Z and now has 3 participants: https://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html * Vlad (~Vlad@team.cloak) has joined * kuettel (~kuettel@team.cloak) has joined ok the dialing works, zakim bot has incorrect info zakim, who is here? zakim bot appears not to be reading the call info correctly scribenick: ChrisL present: jfkthame, KenLundeAdobe, kuettel, RSheeter, vlad, ChrisL Vlad: one pending review item. behedad said lgtm * sergeym (~sergeym@team.cloak) has joined http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/pendingreview close action-175 * trackbot is closing action-175. Closed action-175. * jfkthame has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep") KenLundeAdobe: when discarding redundant data in cff, when it is reconstructed is it restored or discarded Vlad: currently silent on cff processing KenLundeAdobe: yes but in the proposal ... adobe apps prefer the data in the cff Vlad: we don't remove anything. behedad says redundant data could be removed, why keep it in 2 places. its a question to the group and we have not discussed * jfkthame (~jfkthame@team.cloak) has joined KenLundeAdobe: pointing out that adobe apps prefer cff metrics ove hmtx etc is they differ s/is/if Vlad: opentype spec says a different thing ChrisL: would be good to know what adobe apps do there if the cff dupes are removed KenLundeAdobe: textedit on osx prefers the html if they differ ... our tools may reject building such a font Vlad: that would be useful info to know s/html/hmtx * ChrisL rolls eyes at self Vlad: point was that it makes the font smaller ... no mandate to desubroutinise * ChrisL closed 175 earlier topic: open action items http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/open RSheeter: cosimo tried that (??that) do we need more data action-116? * trackbot is looking up action-116. action-116 -- David Kuettel to Decoder performance analysis on mobile devices -- due 2015-06-30 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/116 kuettel: compression team are woring on improvement on decompression speed, with get to a chrome release; once it gets to stable we have new numbers. that will take time. ... so we could close it and make a new action for round 2 Vlad: or bump due date to october kuettel: ok * jfkthame has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep") * jfkthame (~jfkthame@team.cloak) has joined action-168? * trackbot is looking up action-168. action-168 -- Roderick Sheeter to Measure RAM usage for woff2 vs. woff1 -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/168 RSheeter: nope action-171? * trackbot is looking up action-171. action-171 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to Review conformance reqs to ensure they can actually be implemented -- due 2015-05-06 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/171 vl this is an all-group assinment. everyone should look at the spec to check this. before f2f if poss ... found one or two, will need to deal with at f2f action-174? * trackbot is looking up action-174. action-174 -- Chris Lilley to Ask webappsec to review woff2 -- due 2015-04-29 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/174 ChrisL: asked at tpac, could give them a deadline action-176? * trackbot is looking up action-176. action-176 -- Roderick Sheeter to Test hmtx transformation over google fonts corpus (how many lsb == x-min for all glyfs, what savings) -- due 2015-05-27 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/176 Vlad: preliminary tests show not much benefit, confirms earlier analysis on MTX vs woff2 preprocessing ... it doesn't buy much in term of compression gains ... unless you have additional info lets decide now - drop or pursue? KenLundeAdobe: leave it alone is safest Vlad: jfkthame you acked considering this, any ideas? jfkthame: dont feel strongly one way or the other. its a very simple transform to deal with on decoder side and gets 1% which is worthwhile ... so really we should do it ... but ok either way with group decision Vlad: cosima seemed to say we reduce the data size into brotli but loose some entropy efficiency ... so not a 1% gain overall jfkthame: (checks) Vlad: avg saving 548 bytes on the corpus. jfkthame: and avg font size? Vlad: avg glyphs was 700. so less than a byte per glyph saved jfkthame: link to data? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2015May/0028.html s/cosima/Cosimo/ Vlad: we can defer decision if we want to research more RSheeter: if we are really saving 1% we should do it jfkthame: it is indeed 1% looking at mean filezize ChrisL: agree we should keep looking at it if 1% and if reconstruction is easy Vlad: bigger question is spec extensibility As long as the decoding restores the removed 'hmtx' data, I have no objection. Vlad: we identified a set of transforms it makes sense to keep. insteead of a flag for transformed tables, decision was to reserve the fla for something else (I am about to take my daughter to school, but will stay connected as I should be back in 10 to 15 minutes.) ... now we see no need for reserved flags but a clear ne to make the spec extensible if we find another preprocess transform ... including possible future releases of the spec ... unfortunate at this point but can still do ... does not affect wire format, would affect implementations Vlad: do we do a bit more now to make the spec extensible? Vlad: um, silence? jfkthame: we should intruduce a table transform flag, ignored for loca and glyf ... used for hmtx ChrisL: a one bit flag only lets us do this once * ChrisL missed what jfkthame said Vlad: we would have to change the spec and update implementations. existing fonts still be compliant RSheeter: what happens when i get a better hmtx transform. one bit is not enough ChrisL: this is what version numbers are for, not single bits with flag we can extend it. once * kuettel has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) ChrisL: dont follow how it helps more than once Vlad: suppose we use it for hmtx processing * jfkthame disappeared due to dead phone, sorry ... later we have a new idea ... new spec defines that. flag on cff will now be set ChrisL: ok its one flag *per table* i get it now RSheeter: but we get to extend each table exactly once Vlad: agreed * jfkthame re-joins Vlad: we could have been smarter. likelihood is less than that we find something for anew table Vlad: glyf and loca are always preprocessed so that is a consequence of the late spec change. impls will do this anyway ... for any other table, flag bits will show the optional transform ChrisL: current impls will do what with it? jfkthame: if its reserved we should check if its zero ChrisL: yes, clearly ... otherwise it can't be relied on jfkthame: says reserved, doe snot say must be zero s/doe snot/does not/ Vlad: if we reserve bits 6 and 7 then we must check they are zero. if we use one as a transform flag then both values are allowed (I'm back) RSheeter: think we should have an extensibility mechanism, concerned about only once jfkthame: propose using 2 bits for a 4 value version number ... on a per table basis ChrisL: feel more comfortable with 4 values rather than 2 jfkthame: we only need a few bits so this gives us a coule of chances per table to improve things ChrisL: i like jfkthame's proprosal s/pros/pos/ Vlad: we could, yes, use it like that to define over time. wondering if theyre is anything else we would want to flag RSheeter: worse comes to worse we can say that v2 is like v1 plus an extra thing Vlad: ok sleep on it and follow up in email ... jfkthame please send a message for benefit of others not on the call action jfkthame to propose two-bit per table version number * trackbot is creating a new ACTION. Created ACTION-177 - Propose two-bit per table version number [on Jonathan Kew - due 2015-06-03]. * sergeym has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) present+ sergeym kuttel; we want to factor in dropping fonts into this versioning discussion Vlad: if unknown transform is found on a table, temporarily it will cause older decoders to drop the font so we would not do lihtly and is not a long term problem ... must spell out what to do with unknown transformed tables Vlad: ok that was a good discussion which we should continue on the list Vlad: agenda items concluded. eob? topic: f2f Vlad: we have conf room for the full two days ... want to be 100% set on conformance test suite definition ie for each test, what is needed to implement it so test plan is final ... aside from tht, additional agenda items welcome. good point for final decision on extensibility and versions kuttel: sounds good to me. RSheeter: we are at about 55% test coverage now kuettel: of the ones defined so far RSheeter: yes kuttel: so would like to see us focuss on the ones undefined, can go faster on the existing ones Vlad: quite a few new requirements, need to check there are none missing and some are placeholders kuttel: important to have khaled comment on ease of implementation on the new ones Vlad: yes ... but first check the requirements are reasonable. we eliminated one unreasonable one Vlad: organising a social for tues night. any dietary restrictions? kuuttel: yes, steak only ... (grins) jfkthame: suitable for emailing to the rest of us Vlad: we will email you pictures * jfkthame has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep") adjourned chair: Vlad rrsagent, make minutes * RSheeter has quit ("Page closed") rrsagent where are you!! * ChrisL sighs * jfkthame (~jfkthame@team.cloak) has joined Vlad: remote participants welcome