IRC log of tt on 2017-08-10

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be TTML
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ok, trackbot
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
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Date: 10 August 2017
13:58:51 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
13:58:55 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
13:58:59 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
14:02:01 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
14:03:18 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
14:04:54 [nigel]
Present+ Thierry
14:05:47 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
14:06:16 [nigel]
Nigel: I've scheduled 1 hour for today. On our agenda we have TTML2 Horizontal Review,
14:07:14 [nigel]
.. IMSC (just tests I think), WebVTT. Anything other business, or other topics to cover?
14:07:20 [nigel]
group: [silence]
14:08:00 [nigel]
Nigel: I won't be available for the next 2 weeks - anyone want to Chair?
14:08:22 [nigel]
Thierry: I'm out not next week but the following week.
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.. (the 24th)
14:08:57 [nigel]
Nigel: OK so let's cancel our meetings on 17th and 24th August.
14:09:10 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 Horizontal Review
14:09:18 [nigel]
action-497?
14:09:18 [trackbot]
action-497 -- Nigel Megitt to Invite csswg to joint meeting at tpac 2017, with list of topics. -- due 2017-06-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:09:18 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/497
14:09:37 [nigel]
Nigel: I've done this, and am awaiting any requests for specific timeslots from CSSWG members.
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close action-497
14:09:43 [trackbot]
Closed action-497.
14:10:16 [nigel]
Nigel: When I met CSSWG remotely on Friday last week one of the requests was that we
14:10:31 [nigel]
.. don't simply provide a set of attributes/features but requirements with use cases so
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.. that the CSS WG can understand better what we are trying to achieve, in case they think
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.. there is a better way in the context of CSS as a whole to achieve the desired result.
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14:11:46 [nigel]
.. I thought that was a reasonable request - they didn't want to feel coerced into
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.. implementing every feature exactly as we've done it.
14:12:10 [nigel]
Pierre: Take a simple example - multiRowAlign. How would that go?
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14:12:55 [nigel]
.. There are lots of real world uses we can point to so that should be straightforward.
14:13:19 [nigel]
Nigel: Good question. I think we'd describe the desired outcome, and our proposed
14:13:32 [nigel]
.. solution, but also accept that they may decide there's some better way to achieve it.
14:15:02 [nigel]
Pierre: Should we painstakingly catalogue everything and present it as a batch, or develop
14:15:20 [nigel]
.. a working relationship or process starting with one or two examples and see how that goes?
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.. I started with multiRowAlign as a low risk one.
14:15:54 [nigel]
.. It was a question to you Nigel if you have thoughts of how we should proceed?
14:17:21 [nigel]
Nigel: My personal view is that there may even be cases where members of the TTWG
14:17:35 [nigel]
.. are not clear about the use cases for all the new features in TTML2, so it would be
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.. valuable to us as well as other groups if we could document example use cases for each
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.. new feature, especially those that have no CSS equivalent. So I'd be inclined to try to
14:18:21 [nigel]
.. complete the documentation for all those features.
14:18:25 [nigel]
Pierre: I don't disagree.
14:18:56 [nigel]
Nigel: That's a piece of work to do, on top of the existing CSS Requirements wiki. I suspect
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.. that without being able to provide that documentation we will see limited responses
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.. from CSS WG.
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.. A lot of the time with TTML2 the explanation has been that a semantic is present in the
14:20:31 [nigel]
.. LambdaCap format and that therefore there is content that uses it and we need to
14:20:37 [nigel]
.. support those features.
14:20:50 [nigel]
Pierre: That would be a legitimate question to Netflix, about how they selected the
14:21:07 [nigel]
.. features needed in TTML2. I think it'd be great for Netflix to explain that, even in half a
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.. page. It would be extremely helpful going forward, and it might even be required to
14:21:38 [nigel]
.. persuade people to vote for or implement the spec.
14:22:03 [nigel]
.. I think Mike has pointed out in the past that having evidence for why a feature is
14:22:12 [nigel]
.. required is a really good idea. I'm thinking additionally of IMSC 2.
14:22:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Agreed - this is something we need to go back to Netflix and Glenn to answer.
14:23:01 [nigel]
Nigel: I also attended the Privacy IG who gave some useful feedback.
14:23:15 [nigel]
.. I raised all the feedback I could recall/find in minutes as TTML2 issues.
14:25:31 [nigel]
.. The CSS issue is not exactly the topic we just discussed, but is about defining the semantics
14:25:42 [nigel]
.. of TTML2 style attributes based on CSS where possible or equivalent.
14:26:13 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't think I've heard or seen any other feedback - Thierry have you heard anything?
14:27:06 [nigel]
Thierry: No, I haven't seen anything else. We asked for feedback from APA (Accessibility),
14:27:32 [nigel]
.. Web Platform, i18n, Media and Entertainment IG.
14:27:44 [nigel]
Nigel: Clearly we have had good feedback from i18n, but nothing from the others.
14:28:21 [nigel]
Thierry: The review ends at end of September, so if there's been nothing by end of August
14:28:24 [nigel]
.. I should ping them again.
14:28:26 [nigel]
Nigel: +1
14:28:45 [nigel]
Pierre: Due to the timescales I think it will be difficult to get good feedback from external
14:28:57 [nigel]
.. groups in the timescale required. My guess is that they will begin looking at the spec
14:29:13 [nigel]
.. in September. They may simply provide their feedback whenever they have it.
14:29:28 [nigel]
.. Our long review period overlaps with a long period of vacation too.
14:29:56 [nigel]
Nigel: Thierry are you suggesting reminding the internal W3C groups only?
14:30:01 [nigel]
Thierry: No I can do all of them.
14:30:17 [nigel]
Pierre: There are industry meetings like IBC in September that will take time away from
14:30:33 [nigel]
.. those groups for review, so maybe remind them in 1st or 2nd week September and
14:30:43 [nigel]
.. accept that the feedback may be a bit later than the deadline.
14:30:53 [nigel]
.. I'm thinking especially about TV and OTT industries.
14:31:49 [nigel]
ACTION: tmichel Send a reminder to groups for TTML2 review by 8th September
14:31:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-503 - Send a reminder to groups for ttml2 review by 8th september [on Thierry Michel - due 2017-08-17].
14:32:19 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC
14:33:24 [nigel]
Pierre: Thinking about processing the issues and the next steps on IMSC, we said it could
14:33:36 [nigel]
.. not progress until 13th August, which is soon. I can prepare an ED fixes for the issues,
14:33:42 [nigel]
.. but we still need the implementations to be reported.
14:34:19 [nigel]
Nigel: I will chase internally - I'm not sure why I haven't been able to provide our implementation
14:34:23 [nigel]
.. yet - could be due to holidays.
14:34:46 [nigel]
Pierre: In any case I will address those two issues.
14:35:28 [nigel]
Nigel: My assumption is that we will not publish an editorial fix but will only move to PR
14:35:36 [nigel]
.. with the new features implemented.
14:35:41 [nigel]
Pierre: That matches my assumption.
14:36:18 [nigel]
Nigel: Worth noting for the minutes that you release the imsc tests Pierre, thank you!
14:36:27 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests/releases/tag/v1.0.0 IMSC Tests v1.0.0
14:36:41 [nigel]
action-500?
14:36:41 [trackbot]
action-500 -- Thierry Michel to Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
14:36:41 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/500
14:36:46 [nigel]
Thierry: That's done.
14:37:22 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs IMSC vNext Reqs GitHub repo
14:37:33 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you for that.
14:37:47 [nigel]
Action-500: Thierry created https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs
14:37:47 [trackbot]
Notes added to Action-500 Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs.
14:37:50 [nigel]
close action-500
14:37:50 [trackbot]
Closed action-500.
14:39:02 [nigel]
Nigel: I just created an issue on this to add it to github-bot, but I can't assign it to myself.
14:39:09 [nigel]
.. What are the permissions on it?
14:39:16 [nigel]
Thierry: I'll check...
14:39:46 [nigel]
Nigel: It looks like it isn't associated with TTWG.
14:41:11 [nigel]
.. I think you need to add it into the Timed Text team:
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-> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/teams/timed-text/repositories?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=
14:43:20 [nigel]
Thierry: OK yes, added and write permissions added to the TTWG team.
14:43:29 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks, that's fixed, I've assigned it to myself.
14:44:05 [nigel]
Nigel: The next step for that is for Pierre to create a skeleton requirements document in
14:44:06 [nigel]
.. that repo.
14:44:09 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes.
14:45:25 [nigel]
.. My initial goal is to have a first draft by month end.
14:48:10 [nigel]
Topic: WebVTT review feedback
14:48:26 [nigel]
Thierry: I had some actions assigned last week.
14:48:48 [nigel]
Action-501?
14:48:48 [trackbot]
Action-501 -- Thierry Michel to Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
14:48:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/501
14:49:06 [nigel]
Thierry: I pinged this to David but I got no response because he was on vacation so I
14:49:23 [nigel]
.. issued a new WD with a 6 week review period, closing on September 22. That's done.
14:49:29 [nigel]
.. Silvia was okay with that.
14:49:47 [nigel]
Action-501: Thierry did this and published a new WD on TR with a 6 week review period.
14:49:47 [trackbot]
Notes added to Action-501 Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period..
14:49:51 [nigel]
close action-501
14:49:51 [trackbot]
Closed action-501.
14:50:11 [nigel]
Thierry: I also sent a number of emails to W3C groups for Horizontal and Wide Review
14:50:24 [nigel]
.. which are copied on our public-tt reflector.
14:50:34 [nigel]
Action-502?
14:50:34 [trackbot]
Action-502 -- Thierry Michel to Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
14:50:34 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/502
14:50:46 [nigel]
Thierry: This was about the first review in 2014. We discussed last week that we should
14:50:59 [nigel]
.. have the same procedure as for IMSC and TTML in our group so I've asked David to
14:51:11 [nigel]
.. add the links in the document to emails showing that the commenters are satisfied with
14:51:24 [nigel]
.. the CG resolution. I did not get a response from David but Silvia has begun to work on
14:51:37 [nigel]
.. it and she has provided a number of links. She has also sent emails to the commenters
14:51:41 [nigel]
.. to collect this agreement.
14:52:59 [nigel]
Nigel: I forgot to mention something relevant to this last week, so apologies. I had said to
14:53:14 [nigel]
.. David that we can not go to external commenters to approve a disposition until the
14:53:31 [nigel]
.. CG disposition has been approved by the WG. Otherwise if the WG doesn't agree with
14:53:45 [nigel]
.. the CG then this would put the external commenter in a difficult position. However at
14:54:07 [nigel]
.. this stage there has been reasonable notice to the WG of the dispositions and no
14:54:20 [nigel]
.. further comments have been added so it may be reasonable to take that as tacit approval
14:54:26 [nigel]
.. of the CG dispositions by the WG.
14:54:55 [nigel]
.. Can I check if anyone wants more time to review those CG dispositions?
14:55:04 [nigel]
group: [nobody requests additional time]
14:55:15 [nigel]
Nigel: In that case we should allow it to proceed.
14:55:30 [nigel]
Thierry: That was David's point too - the WG has had 1 month or more so I consider that
14:55:33 [nigel]
.. the WG is satisfied.
14:55:59 [nigel]
.. It is not very common in the W3C for a CG and a WG to work together - it makes things
14:56:04 [nigel]
.. a bit more difficult.
14:56:18 [nigel]
.. This is a good example - we are three parties instead of two.
14:56:35 [nigel]
Pierre: Setting aside the dynamics of the groups, from an IPR perspective it's weird to have
14:57:05 [nigel]
.. all the technical work done elsewhere but the IPR commitment made here.
14:57:19 [nigel]
Nigel: Formally, the main contributors in the CG are members of the WG. It is weird though.
14:57:42 [nigel]
Pierre: Formally we need to track all the contributions to check that the IPR is cleared.
14:57:49 [nigel]
.. Maybe it's not a problem here, but it is awkward.
14:57:53 [nigel]
Nigel: I think David is across that.
14:58:51 [nigel]
.. There was a formal IPR release from the CG back in 2014 I think, and since then David
14:59:06 [nigel]
.. has been tracking it I believe - the small number of contributors may in fact all be members
14:59:13 [nigel]
.. of the WG right now, so this may be ok.
15:00:46 [nigel]
Thierry: I think that closes my actions on this, so I may have more news on David's return
15:00:48 [nigel]
.. from vacation.
15:01:50 [nigel]
Action-502: Thierry sent a message to David and is expecting a response.
15:01:50 [trackbot]
Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt..
15:03:03 [nigel]
Action-502: Thierry to turn the existing document into something more homogeneous.
15:03:03 [trackbot]
Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt..
15:04:50 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
15:05:01 [nigel]
Nigel: Those are all our agenda topics, so I'll adjourn the meeting. Thanks everyone,
15:05:12 [nigel]
.. next meeting will be 31st August. [adjourns meeting]
15:05:38 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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Regrets: Glenn, Dae, Mike
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s/.. new feature/Nigel: new feature
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s/you release the imsc tests/you released the IMSC tests
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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