IRC log of tt on 2017-08-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- Zakim, this will be TTML
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- ok, trackbot
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- Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
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- Date: 10 August 2017
- 13:58:51 [nigel]
- scribe: nigel
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- Present: Nigel
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- Chair: Nigel
- 14:02:01 [nigel]
- Present+ Andreas
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- Present+ Pierre
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- Present+ Thierry
- 14:05:47 [nigel]
- Topic: This meeting
- 14:06:16 [nigel]
- Nigel: I've scheduled 1 hour for today. On our agenda we have TTML2 Horizontal Review,
- 14:07:14 [nigel]
- .. IMSC (just tests I think), WebVTT. Anything other business, or other topics to cover?
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- group: [silence]
- 14:08:00 [nigel]
- Nigel: I won't be available for the next 2 weeks - anyone want to Chair?
- 14:08:22 [nigel]
- Thierry: I'm out not next week but the following week.
- 14:08:32 [nigel]
- .. (the 24th)
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- Nigel: OK so let's cancel our meetings on 17th and 24th August.
- 14:09:10 [nigel]
- Topic: TTML2 Horizontal Review
- 14:09:18 [nigel]
- action-497?
- 14:09:18 [trackbot]
- action-497 -- Nigel Megitt to Invite csswg to joint meeting at tpac 2017, with list of topics. -- due 2017-06-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
- 14:09:18 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/497
- 14:09:37 [nigel]
- Nigel: I've done this, and am awaiting any requests for specific timeslots from CSSWG members.
- 14:09:42 [nigel]
- close action-497
- 14:09:43 [trackbot]
- Closed action-497.
- 14:10:16 [nigel]
- Nigel: When I met CSSWG remotely on Friday last week one of the requests was that we
- 14:10:31 [nigel]
- .. don't simply provide a set of attributes/features but requirements with use cases so
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- .. that the CSS WG can understand better what we are trying to achieve, in case they think
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- .. there is a better way in the context of CSS as a whole to achieve the desired result.
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- .. I thought that was a reasonable request - they didn't want to feel coerced into
- 14:11:59 [nigel]
- .. implementing every feature exactly as we've done it.
- 14:12:10 [nigel]
- Pierre: Take a simple example - multiRowAlign. How would that go?
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- 14:12:55 [nigel]
- .. There are lots of real world uses we can point to so that should be straightforward.
- 14:13:19 [nigel]
- Nigel: Good question. I think we'd describe the desired outcome, and our proposed
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- .. solution, but also accept that they may decide there's some better way to achieve it.
- 14:15:02 [nigel]
- Pierre: Should we painstakingly catalogue everything and present it as a batch, or develop
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- .. a working relationship or process starting with one or two examples and see how that goes?
- 14:15:29 [nigel]
- .. I started with multiRowAlign as a low risk one.
- 14:15:54 [nigel]
- .. It was a question to you Nigel if you have thoughts of how we should proceed?
- 14:17:21 [nigel]
- Nigel: My personal view is that there may even be cases where members of the TTWG
- 14:17:35 [nigel]
- .. are not clear about the use cases for all the new features in TTML2, so it would be
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- .. valuable to us as well as other groups if we could document example use cases for each
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- .. new feature, especially those that have no CSS equivalent. So I'd be inclined to try to
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- .. complete the documentation for all those features.
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- Pierre: I don't disagree.
- 14:18:56 [nigel]
- Nigel: That's a piece of work to do, on top of the existing CSS Requirements wiki. I suspect
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- .. that without being able to provide that documentation we will see limited responses
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- .. from CSS WG.
- 14:20:20 [nigel]
- .. A lot of the time with TTML2 the explanation has been that a semantic is present in the
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- .. LambdaCap format and that therefore there is content that uses it and we need to
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- .. support those features.
- 14:20:50 [nigel]
- Pierre: That would be a legitimate question to Netflix, about how they selected the
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- .. features needed in TTML2. I think it'd be great for Netflix to explain that, even in half a
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- .. page. It would be extremely helpful going forward, and it might even be required to
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- .. persuade people to vote for or implement the spec.
- 14:22:03 [nigel]
- .. I think Mike has pointed out in the past that having evidence for why a feature is
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- .. required is a really good idea. I'm thinking additionally of IMSC 2.
- 14:22:38 [nigel]
- Nigel: Agreed - this is something we need to go back to Netflix and Glenn to answer.
- 14:23:01 [nigel]
- Nigel: I also attended the Privacy IG who gave some useful feedback.
- 14:23:15 [nigel]
- .. I raised all the feedback I could recall/find in minutes as TTML2 issues.
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- .. The CSS issue is not exactly the topic we just discussed, but is about defining the semantics
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- .. of TTML2 style attributes based on CSS where possible or equivalent.
- 14:26:13 [nigel]
- Nigel: I don't think I've heard or seen any other feedback - Thierry have you heard anything?
- 14:27:06 [nigel]
- Thierry: No, I haven't seen anything else. We asked for feedback from APA (Accessibility),
- 14:27:32 [nigel]
- .. Web Platform, i18n, Media and Entertainment IG.
- 14:27:44 [nigel]
- Nigel: Clearly we have had good feedback from i18n, but nothing from the others.
- 14:28:21 [nigel]
- Thierry: The review ends at end of September, so if there's been nothing by end of August
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- .. I should ping them again.
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- Nigel: +1
- 14:28:45 [nigel]
- Pierre: Due to the timescales I think it will be difficult to get good feedback from external
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- .. groups in the timescale required. My guess is that they will begin looking at the spec
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- .. in September. They may simply provide their feedback whenever they have it.
- 14:29:28 [nigel]
- .. Our long review period overlaps with a long period of vacation too.
- 14:29:56 [nigel]
- Nigel: Thierry are you suggesting reminding the internal W3C groups only?
- 14:30:01 [nigel]
- Thierry: No I can do all of them.
- 14:30:17 [nigel]
- Pierre: There are industry meetings like IBC in September that will take time away from
- 14:30:33 [nigel]
- .. those groups for review, so maybe remind them in 1st or 2nd week September and
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- .. accept that the feedback may be a bit later than the deadline.
- 14:30:53 [nigel]
- .. I'm thinking especially about TV and OTT industries.
- 14:31:49 [nigel]
- ACTION: tmichel Send a reminder to groups for TTML2 review by 8th September
- 14:31:49 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-503 - Send a reminder to groups for ttml2 review by 8th september [on Thierry Michel - due 2017-08-17].
- 14:32:19 [nigel]
- Topic: IMSC
- 14:33:24 [nigel]
- Pierre: Thinking about processing the issues and the next steps on IMSC, we said it could
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- .. not progress until 13th August, which is soon. I can prepare an ED fixes for the issues,
- 14:33:42 [nigel]
- .. but we still need the implementations to be reported.
- 14:34:19 [nigel]
- Nigel: I will chase internally - I'm not sure why I haven't been able to provide our implementation
- 14:34:23 [nigel]
- .. yet - could be due to holidays.
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- Pierre: In any case I will address those two issues.
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- Nigel: My assumption is that we will not publish an editorial fix but will only move to PR
- 14:35:36 [nigel]
- .. with the new features implemented.
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- Pierre: That matches my assumption.
- 14:36:18 [nigel]
- Nigel: Worth noting for the minutes that you release the imsc tests Pierre, thank you!
- 14:36:27 [nigel]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests/releases/tag/v1.0.0 IMSC Tests v1.0.0
- 14:36:41 [nigel]
- action-500?
- 14:36:41 [trackbot]
- action-500 -- Thierry Michel to Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
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- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/500
- 14:36:46 [nigel]
- Thierry: That's done.
- 14:37:22 [nigel]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs IMSC vNext Reqs GitHub repo
- 14:37:33 [nigel]
- Nigel: Thank you for that.
- 14:37:47 [nigel]
- Action-500: Thierry created https://github.com/w3c/imsc-vnext-reqs
- 14:37:47 [trackbot]
- Notes added to Action-500 Create a new repo imsc-vnext-reqs.
- 14:37:50 [nigel]
- close action-500
- 14:37:50 [trackbot]
- Closed action-500.
- 14:39:02 [nigel]
- Nigel: I just created an issue on this to add it to github-bot, but I can't assign it to myself.
- 14:39:09 [nigel]
- .. What are the permissions on it?
- 14:39:16 [nigel]
- Thierry: I'll check...
- 14:39:46 [nigel]
- Nigel: It looks like it isn't associated with TTWG.
- 14:41:11 [nigel]
- .. I think you need to add it into the Timed Text team:
- 14:41:14 [nigel]
- -> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/teams/timed-text/repositories?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=
- 14:43:20 [nigel]
- Thierry: OK yes, added and write permissions added to the TTWG team.
- 14:43:29 [nigel]
- Nigel: Thanks, that's fixed, I've assigned it to myself.
- 14:44:05 [nigel]
- Nigel: The next step for that is for Pierre to create a skeleton requirements document in
- 14:44:06 [nigel]
- .. that repo.
- 14:44:09 [nigel]
- Pierre: Yes.
- 14:45:25 [nigel]
- .. My initial goal is to have a first draft by month end.
- 14:48:10 [nigel]
- Topic: WebVTT review feedback
- 14:48:26 [nigel]
- Thierry: I had some actions assigned last week.
- 14:48:48 [nigel]
- Action-501?
- 14:48:48 [trackbot]
- Action-501 -- Thierry Michel to Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
- 14:48:48 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/501
- 14:49:06 [nigel]
- Thierry: I pinged this to David but I got no response because he was on vacation so I
- 14:49:23 [nigel]
- .. issued a new WD with a 6 week review period, closing on September 22. That's done.
- 14:49:29 [nigel]
- .. Silvia was okay with that.
- 14:49:47 [nigel]
- Action-501: Thierry did this and published a new WD on TR with a 6 week review period.
- 14:49:47 [trackbot]
- Notes added to Action-501 Write to david and the cg saying we should publish a new wd with a 6 week review period..
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- close action-501
- 14:49:51 [trackbot]
- Closed action-501.
- 14:50:11 [nigel]
- Thierry: I also sent a number of emails to W3C groups for Horizontal and Wide Review
- 14:50:24 [nigel]
- .. which are copied on our public-tt reflector.
- 14:50:34 [nigel]
- Action-502?
- 14:50:34 [trackbot]
- Action-502 -- Thierry Michel to Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt. -- due 2017-08-10 -- OPEN
- 14:50:34 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/502
- 14:50:46 [nigel]
- Thierry: This was about the first review in 2014. We discussed last week that we should
- 14:50:59 [nigel]
- .. have the same procedure as for IMSC and TTML in our group so I've asked David to
- 14:51:11 [nigel]
- .. add the links in the document to emails showing that the commenters are satisfied with
- 14:51:24 [nigel]
- .. the CG resolution. I did not get a response from David but Silvia has begun to work on
- 14:51:37 [nigel]
- .. it and she has provided a number of links. She has also sent emails to the commenters
- 14:51:41 [nigel]
- .. to collect this agreement.
- 14:52:59 [nigel]
- Nigel: I forgot to mention something relevant to this last week, so apologies. I had said to
- 14:53:14 [nigel]
- .. David that we can not go to external commenters to approve a disposition until the
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- .. CG disposition has been approved by the WG. Otherwise if the WG doesn't agree with
- 14:53:45 [nigel]
- .. the CG then this would put the external commenter in a difficult position. However at
- 14:54:07 [nigel]
- .. this stage there has been reasonable notice to the WG of the dispositions and no
- 14:54:20 [nigel]
- .. further comments have been added so it may be reasonable to take that as tacit approval
- 14:54:26 [nigel]
- .. of the CG dispositions by the WG.
- 14:54:55 [nigel]
- .. Can I check if anyone wants more time to review those CG dispositions?
- 14:55:04 [nigel]
- group: [nobody requests additional time]
- 14:55:15 [nigel]
- Nigel: In that case we should allow it to proceed.
- 14:55:30 [nigel]
- Thierry: That was David's point too - the WG has had 1 month or more so I consider that
- 14:55:33 [nigel]
- .. the WG is satisfied.
- 14:55:59 [nigel]
- .. It is not very common in the W3C for a CG and a WG to work together - it makes things
- 14:56:04 [nigel]
- .. a bit more difficult.
- 14:56:18 [nigel]
- .. This is a good example - we are three parties instead of two.
- 14:56:35 [nigel]
- Pierre: Setting aside the dynamics of the groups, from an IPR perspective it's weird to have
- 14:57:05 [nigel]
- .. all the technical work done elsewhere but the IPR commitment made here.
- 14:57:19 [nigel]
- Nigel: Formally, the main contributors in the CG are members of the WG. It is weird though.
- 14:57:42 [nigel]
- Pierre: Formally we need to track all the contributions to check that the IPR is cleared.
- 14:57:49 [nigel]
- .. Maybe it's not a problem here, but it is awkward.
- 14:57:53 [nigel]
- Nigel: I think David is across that.
- 14:58:51 [nigel]
- .. There was a formal IPR release from the CG back in 2014 I think, and since then David
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- .. has been tracking it I believe - the small number of contributors may in fact all be members
- 14:59:13 [nigel]
- .. of the WG right now, so this may be ok.
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- Thierry: I think that closes my actions on this, so I may have more news on David's return
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- .. from vacation.
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- Action-502: Thierry sent a message to David and is expecting a response.
- 15:01:50 [trackbot]
- Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt..
- 15:03:03 [nigel]
- Action-502: Thierry to turn the existing document into something more homogeneous.
- 15:03:03 [trackbot]
- Notes added to Action-502 Explain to david that we need a more consistent disposition of comments for webvtt..
- 15:04:50 [nigel]
- Topic: Meeting close
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- Nigel: Those are all our agenda topics, so I'll adjourn the meeting. Thanks everyone,
- 15:05:12 [nigel]
- .. next meeting will be 31st August. [adjourns meeting]
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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- Regrets: Glenn, Dae, Mike
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- s/.. new feature/Nigel: new feature
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- s/you release the imsc tests/you released the IMSC tests
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/10-tt-minutes.html nigel
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