14:31:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
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14:31:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:31:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:31:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:31:37 <trackbot> Date: 27 July 2017
14:31:48 <allanj> regrets: glenda
14:31:57 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
14:31:57 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:34:38 <allanj> Agenda+ Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)
14:34:40 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jul/0093.html
14:34:41 <allanj> Agenda+ Printing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76
14:52:38 <allanj> regrets+ scott
14:52:48 <allanj> brb
14:54:45 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:58:44 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:44 <Zakim> Present: steverep, erich, Laura, Shawn(part)
14:59:02 <shawn> present: Jim, John, Shawn, Laura
15:02:39 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:05:30 <erich> erich has joined #lvtf
15:05:46 <shawn> present+ Erich, SteveR
15:06:01 <laura> present+ Laura
15:07:21 <steverep> steverep has joined #lvtf
15:07:59 <steverep> present+steverep
15:08:19 <laura> Scribe List: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Scribe_List
15:08:26 <allanj> scribe: Jim
15:09:46 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
15:09:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Popup Interference (MetaData on Hover)" taken up [from allanj]
15:10:04 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jul/0093.html
15:11:49 <allanj> sr: seems to meet all use cases
15:12:34 <allanj> lc: it covers more than the origanal
15:12:37 <shawn> scribe: shawn
15:12:55 <shawn> ja: can live with either one
15:13:06 <shawn> sr: agree
15:13:14 <laura> +1
15:13:14 <shawn> lc: agree
15:13:28 <erich> +1
15:13:52 <allanj> *Popup Interference:* Except where popup presentation is controlled by the
15:13:54 <allanj> user agent, all of the following are true when popup content is visible:
15:13:55 <allanj> ·       *Trigger*: Popup content does not obscure any part of its
15:13:57 <allanj> triggering content.
15:13:58 <allanj> ·       *Hover:* If a popup is triggered via pointer hover, then the
15:14:00 <allanj> pointer may be moved onto the popup content without loss of visibility.
15:14:01 <allanj> ·       *Focus:* Popup content remains visible while any of its components,
15:14:03 <allanj> including the trigger, have focus.
15:14:04 <allanj> Where we define popup as " becomes visible only on pointer hover or focus”.
15:14:08 <shawn> present- SteveR
15:14:15 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:14:15 <Zakim> Present: Jim, John, Shawn, Laura, Erich, steverep
15:14:27 <allanj> +1
15:14:28 <JohnRochford> +1
15:14:31 <laura> +1
15:14:40 <erich> +1
15:15:05 <steverep> +1
15:15:17 <shawn> RESOLUTION: Accept Popup Interference above
15:15:32 <shawn> ja: ready to go to AG
15:15:49 <shawn> lc: maybe issue with @@
15:16:15 <shawn> sr: put in what was tryinkg to cover the original use cases
15:16:34 <shawn> ja: comment out the other stuff. I'll update the other wiki info
15:16:50 <shawn> s/ tryinkg/ trying
15:17:00 <shawn> ja: html will work to comment out
15:17:38 <shawn> sr will try to take care of GitHub
15:18:00 <shawn> ja: will get to AG for this coming survey & telecon
15:18:11 <shawn> Friday survey
15:18:37 <allanj> close item 1
15:18:44 <shawn> q?
15:18:48 <shawn> ack s
15:18:57 <allanj> close item 1
15:19:07 <shawn> zakim, take up next
15:19:07 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Printing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76" taken up [from allanj]
15:19:36 <allanj> Resized:
15:19:37 <allanj>     Content can be resized up to 200% without loss of content or functionality;
15:19:39 <allanj> Changes Reflected:
15:19:40 <allanj>     User changes to letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected in the printed content.
15:20:17 <shawn> ja: pushback on 200% because not all browsers do it, printing sale different from zoom content
15:20:30 <shawn> ... testing with font size 2em in CSS and worked well
15:21:07 <shawn> ... change to: if user changes font size to up to 2em, it will print OK
15:21:30 <shawn> ... author has control if works with author's print style sheet
15:21:40 <shawn> ... (also true on display)
15:22:17 <shawn> slh: want to include all the other things in adapting text, e.g., line height
15:22:56 <shawn> ja: already there
15:22:58 <shawn> slh: ah right
15:23:35 <shawn> slh: use similar wording from adapting text?
15:23:58 <steverep> q+ just trying to understand what damages printing
15:24:21 <shawn> sr: what damages printing?
15:24:49 <shawn> slh: example of print CSS set text box size
15:25:10 <allanj> ja: not being able to add to 100, truncated text
15:25:27 <shawn> ... increased text size not fit
15:25:43 <shawn> ja: author css not adding to 100 and get truncated text
15:26:04 <shawn> ... padding, margins, etc adds up to 112
15:26:12 <shawn> ... printing cuts off content
15:26:27 <shawn> ... fixed box positions - some fixed and some not
15:26:41 <shawn> ... end up with overlapping text not readable
15:27:02 <shawn> ... up to 2ems - not scale/zoom
15:27:42 <shawn> ... example only printed some of the content
15:28:15 <shawn> ... want to print recipes, etc. for offline
15:28:33 <shawn> ... eaxmples here:
15:28:44 <shawn> s/eaxmples/examples
15:28:46 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Printing_Customized_Text#Examples
15:29:28 <shawn> ... one example truncated 'cause body width was 640px
15:29:41 <shawn> lc: link examples in GitHub issue
15:30:04 <shawn> ja: many things that author can do to break -- or make sore -- the printing
15:30:22 <shawn> s/sore/work
15:31:01 <erich> need to drop, folks, but feel free to delegate relevant actions for this SC to me, as I believe I'm still listed SC mgr... Have a good week!
15:31:52 <allanj> User changes to font-size, letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected don't result in loss of content when printed
15:32:10 <allanj> User changes to font-size up to 2em, letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected don't result in loss of content when printed
15:32:14 <shawn> slh: up to 2em
15:32:46 <shawn> slh: overlapping covered by lose of content?
15:32:49 <shawn> ja: yeah
15:33:25 <allanj> User changes to font-size up to 2em, letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected in the printed version and don't result in loss of content.
15:33:42 <steverep> q+ mobile testing?
15:33:52 <allanj> ack s
15:33:59 <shawn> q- mobile
15:34:01 <shawn> q- testing
15:34:37 <JohnRochford> How about "User changes to font-size (up to 2em), letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected in the printed version, and don't result in loss of content."
15:35:33 <allanj> slh: if the user can't change it then its irrelevant
15:35:36 <shawn> slh: if users can't change it, then it's irrelevant
15:35:54 <JohnRochford> q+
15:36:16 <shawn> ack j
15:36:40 <shawn> jr: talking about user CSS?
15:36:47 <shawn> ja: yes
15:37:46 <shawn> slh: looks good to me
15:37:56 <shawn> lc: push back on "user changes"
15:38:34 <shawn> @@: drop the word user?
15:38:57 <JohnRochford> How about, "Changes to font-size (up to 2em), letter spacing, line spacing, font family, and color are reflected in the printed version, and don't result in loss of content."
15:39:31 <shawn> slh: defers to y'all who have been working more closely with AG!
15:39:54 <shawn> lc: better, then they'll ask about amount
15:40:11 <shawn> slh: use #s from adapting text?
15:40:26 <shawn> lc: can for spacing, not have family or color
15:40:38 <shawn> ja: can do some in browser, some in user CSS
15:40:39 <allanj> sr: concerns about mobile printing, ability to change font characteristics, etc. can't change font stuff in mobile yet
15:40:54 <shawn> lc: leave as is and see what they say?
15:41:04 <shawn> slh: might as well add #s for spacing
15:42:17 <allanj> User changes to font-size up to 2em, letter spacing up to .12 font-size, line spacing up to 1.5 font size, font family, and color are reflected in the printed version and don't result in loss of content.
15:42:42 <shawn> s/can do some in browser, some in user CSS/can do all in user CSS, some in browser
15:43:10 <allanj> User changes to font-size (up to 2em), letter spacing (up to .12 font-size), line spacing (up to 1.5 font size), font family, and color are reflected in the printed version and don't result in loss of content.
15:43:36 <allanj> Changes to font-size (up to 2em), letter spacing (up to .12 font-size), line spacing (up to 1.5 font size), font family, and color are reflected in the printed version and don't result in loss of content.
15:44:21 <shawn> lc: concerned it will open up adapting text SC
15:44:45 <JohnRochford> Changes to font-size (up to 2em), letter spacing (up to .12 font-size), line spacing (up to 1.5 font size), font family, and color are reflected in the printed version and do not result in loss of content.
15:45:10 <steverep> q+
15:45:35 <shawn> ack steve
15:45:41 <JohnRochford> I have to go. The last version I published gets rid of the contraction.
15:45:59 <shawn> sr: don't want to leave anything out, yet share laura's concner
15:46:03 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:46:07 <JohnRochford> ciao
15:46:12 <shawn> s/concner/concern
15:46:36 <shawn> ar: adding more than adapting text and adding it has to print
15:46:42 <shawn> zakim, who is on the call?
15:46:42 <Zakim> Present: Jim, John, Shawn, Laura, Erich, steverep, JohnRochford
15:46:51 <shawn> present- John
15:47:39 <shawn> sr: if pass adadpting text, what can author do to block it?
15:47:44 <shawn> slh: screw up print CSS
15:47:55 <shawn> sr: css and javascript print events
15:48:35 <shawn> s/adadpting /adapting
15:49:00 <allanj> laura's concern - reopening adapting text
15:49:21 <shawn> slh: asked earlier if can just add to adapting text -- but that opens up same issue
15:49:53 <shawn> ja: to new draft, add comments about adapting text and printing
15:50:48 <allanj> slh: fine with not opening adapting text. put printing as a separate SC. then combine after august deadline
15:50:57 <shawn> slh: maybe try for separate SCs for now. and then maybe they'll get combined later
15:51:08 <shawn> lc: yes
15:51:11 <shawn> ja: yes
15:51:18 <shawn> sr: yes
15:51:27 <allanj> sr: acknowledge up front that this is the strategy
15:53:56 <allanj> slh: leave out font family and color.
15:54:00 <shawn> slh: font family got taken out 'cause too hard to test and covered by spacing. so take out of here, too?
15:55:02 <shawn> sr: one way to state it. another reason - adapting text about user making changes, and how users can mess that up. notihgn stopping user from making front family change, only that would break the content change is the sizing, and that is sufficiently covered by spacing.
15:55:30 <shawn> ... with this one... example: make bunch of style changes, write on-print event that redoes the styles, then will override
15:55:49 <shawn> s/write on-print/author writes on-print
15:56:06 <shawn> slh: then author messed it up
15:56:34 <shawn> sr: should be used when authors change layout for better print view
15:56:47 <shawn> ja: for not when print CSS
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15:57:00 <shawn> sr: print better way, but some use javascript
15:57:15 <shawn> s/print better way/print CSS better way
15:58:28 <shawn> slh: fine to do things like not print ads, byt still need to not have lose of content from user changes
15:58:52 <allanj> perhaps add printing to the exiting Editor's note in Adapting text -- The Working Group seeks to include overriding text color, background color, font-family, and priniting as part of this SC, but is not yet able to identify a way to do so that is sufficiently testable.
16:00:01 <shawn> slh: prefer to get clear SC accedpted now - then later munge if want
16:00:19 <shawn> ... if can get an SC accepted now, it's stronger than Editors note
16:01:08 <shawn> ja: keep it simple for now
16:01:08 <allanj> ja: keep it simple. just print without loss of content
16:01:26 <laura> +1
16:01:51 <allanj> ... leave out all other modifications (font-size, family, spacing, color,)
16:01:52 <shawn> slh: hummmm
16:01:58 <shawn> ja: gets foot in door
16:03:21 <shawn> slh: i guess OK in big picture of all the tangential issues :)
16:04:55 <shawn> slh: as steve says, communicate that approach is to get the basics requiremetn in now w/o opeing worms, and after August look at it in big picture and *may* be combined (w.g., with adapting text)
16:05:54 <shawn> ja: without loss of content means they can't have print that srips out ads, nav, etc.
16:06:18 <shawn> slh: .... loss of intended incuded content :(
16:06:22 <shawn> lc: essential content
16:06:40 <shawn> s/incuded/included
16:06:55 <allanj> Users can print essential content without loss of content
16:06:56 <shawn> s/nav, etc./nav, etc. we don't want that!
16:08:22 <allanj> slh: totally fine for authors to choose what is and is not printed. what they intend to print is not messed up
16:10:19 <allanj> lc: content can be printed without loss of essential information
16:10:35 <laura> If content can printed, it has no loss of essential information.
16:10:36 <allanj> +1
16:11:28 <shawn> Content that is printed hs not loss of information
16:11:32 <allanj> slh: content that is printed has no loss of essential information
16:11:34 <shawn> Content that is printed has no loss of information
16:11:46 <shawn> slh: ?
16:12:51 <allanj> slh: essential information can be printed with no loss of content
16:13:06 <shawn> slh: don't want out clause that cant print essential info at all
16:14:09 <allanj> define "no loss of content" in description - truncated or overlapping text
16:14:35 <allanj> lc: +1
16:14:45 <shawn> +1
16:15:22 <allanj> sr: +1
16:15:45 <shawn> RESOLUTION: send to AG: "essential information can be printed with no loss of content"
16:16:04 <shawn> ja: will edit GitHUb
16:16:11 <allanj> jim to edit github and update description
16:16:24 <shawn> and let erich know next steps
16:16:43 <shawn> slh: thanks, all!
16:16:57 <shawn> q+
16:17:04 <shawn> ack me
16:17:36 <allanj> slh: we have open issues on requirements.... need to wrap that up
16:18:03 <allanj> ja: we also have tasks for updated understanding docs.
16:18:19 <shawn> s/need to wrap that up/lower priority than SCs. slh can't get to until after TPAC anyway
16:18:46 <allanj> AG wants understanding docs ready for Last Call
16:19:00 <allanj> lc: working on testing adapting text
16:19:10 <laura> Starting to work on Adapting Text Testing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LRsAtLReBL6LnbvJQ4biQ1ER1fKbh8MDWnHqbsW7B1o
16:20:03 <allanj> lc: looking for pdf docs to test
16:22:46 <allanj> pdf testing is 2nd tab on spreadsheet.
16:22:58 <laura> bye
16:23:04 <laura> laura has left #lvtf
16:23:06 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:23:06 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:23:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jim, John, Shawn, Laura, Erich, SteveR, steverep, JohnRochford
16:23:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:23:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/27-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:23:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:23:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:48:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
19:48:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/07/27-lvtf-irc
19:49:00 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:49:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/27-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
19:49:16 <shawn> rrsagent, bye
19:49:30 <shawn> rrsagent, make minutes public
19:49:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', shawn.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:49:40 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs public
19:49:46 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:49:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/07/27-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
19:49:51 <shawn> rrsagent, bye
19:49:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items