IRC log of tt on 2017-05-18

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
13:59:18 [trackbot]
Date: 18 May 2017
13:59:31 [nigel]
Present: Pierre, Dae, Glenn, Nigel
13:59:47 [nigel]
Regrets: Andreas, Mike
13:59:50 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
13:59:52 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
14:02:36 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
14:03:19 [nigel]
Regrets+ Thierry
14:03:50 [nigel]
Nigel: For today, we have 2 hours. I don't think there's anything to discuss re TPAC, so
14:04:00 [glenn]
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14:04:30 [nigel]
.. I think we'll be focusing on TTML1 progress, issues, pull requests etc. Do we need time
14:04:31 [nigel]
.. on IMSC?
14:04:39 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes, should be very quick but there's a blocker there.
14:05:16 [nigel]
Nigel: I think the HDR in PNG note has had its time, and I haven't had any responses, so
14:05:22 [nigel]
.. let's discuss publishing that as a Note.
14:06:02 [nigel]
.. Any other business or particular points to raise?
14:06:16 [nigel]
Pierre: Dae didn't you propose resolutions on a bunch of issues?
14:06:25 [nigel]
Dae: Yes but they're waiting for feedback from Richard Ishida.
14:06:46 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't have any other business, but just noting today is Global Accessibility Awareness Day.
14:06:50 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC
14:07:03 [nigel]
Pierre: There's a pull request:
14:07:34 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/230 Added explicit spaces in tts:aspectRatio and tts:activeArea definitions (issue #221)
14:07:50 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/221 Attribute syntax definition: missing spaces
14:08:06 [nigel]
Pierre: In TTML1 there's prose that has not been imported into IMSC1 about spaces being
14:08:27 [nigel]
.. required between non-terminal tokens. It was never in IMSC1 even though it followed
14:08:47 [nigel]
.. the conventions. So here I propose a pull request that explicitly adds a single space
14:09:23 [nigel]
.. between the tokens in ittp:activeArea and ittp:activeArea. However Glenn is not happy
14:09:26 [nigel]
.. with that.
14:09:52 [nigel]
Glenn: I think many readers would assume that the TTML1 rules already apply even though
14:10:11 [nigel]
.. it is not explicitly stated. By introducing a space there we are going against how
14:10:26 [nigel]
.. attribute syntax is specified in TTML1 and TTML2 since it does not do that except to
14:10:41 [nigel]
.. call it out when those rules do not apply. Also the way it is quoted as a double quoted
14:10:53 [nigel]
.. white space is ambiguous because we cannot tell which character it is. Also it does not
14:11:07 [nigel]
.. work in all contexts even with XML since it is possible to escape white space and it may
14:11:19 [nigel]
.. not be normalised. So the way the comment has been resolved is inconsistent and it is
14:11:33 [nigel]
.. much easier if you simply refer to the TTML1 rule in the convention section or something
14:11:35 [nigel]
.. like that.
14:12:28 [nigel]
Pierre: Nigel, what's your take on that?
14:12:50 [nigel]
Nigel: This is new to me, however for the reason that implementers should not need to
14:13:12 [nigel]
.. create a special attribute parser just for these two attributes, I would agree with Glenn.
14:14:34 [nigel]
Pierre: Okay I'll do that. I'll need to copy the text in otherwise I would have to reference the
14:14:46 [nigel]
.. two places in TTML1 where this is defined, one for parameter attributes and the other for
14:15:10 [nigel]
.. style attributes? Oh actually both are parameters. Thanks, I'll go ahead.
14:15:31 [nigel]
Nigel: There are two other pull requests for IMSC - do we need to discuss those?
14:15:39 [nigel]
Pierre: We can do that offline, no need to discuss today.
14:16:02 [nigel]
Pierre: Also FYI there are two issues Nigel that need your review, and everyone in the Group's,
14:16:07 [nigel]
.. for CR exit criteria.
14:16:27 [nigel]
Glenn: Question: Pierre, how did you resolve that issue about the white space and the
14:16:32 [nigel]
.. fontFamily expression?
14:16:43 [nigel]
Pierre: That's still under discussion, there's no pull request on that. It's on the IMSC test
14:16:49 [nigel]
.. suite not on IMSC1.
14:17:04 [nigel]
Glenn: Your point was based on a presumption about TTML1 that may or may not be true.
14:17:27 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests/issues/7 FontFamily009.ttml has a spurious space
14:17:50 [nigel]
Pierre: That has an impact on TTML1 and TTML2.
14:18:06 [nigel]
Glenn: The issue is whether or not space is permitted around terms in a comma separated
14:18:19 [nigel]
.. list, and even more generally whether space is permitted around other delimiters, of which
14:18:33 [nigel]
.. we have a variety. That generic language we were talking about for an implied whitespace
14:18:46 [nigel]
.. between two non-terminals: if you have another kind of delimiter there then that language
14:19:02 [nigel]
.. does not read on the question of if it is permissible to have white space between the delimiter
14:19:25 [nigel]
.. and the term that follows. In this particular issue someone had read it as indicating that
14:19:37 [nigel]
.. white space is not allowed in that context but if you look at the original CSS2 grammar
14:19:52 [nigel]
.. specification from 1998 and this spec you'll find examples where white space appears
14:20:06 [nigel]
.. around terms in a delimiter separated list, and the same in XSL-FO. We did not call this
14:20:19 [nigel]
.. out in TTML but there's a good case for saying that white space is permitted.
14:20:47 [nigel]
.. This will affect all the TTML-based languages.
14:21:27 [nigel]
Pierre: I've arrived at a different implementation from Glenn here.
14:21:44 [nigel]
Nigel: Do we have example data points here? I would expect to see "comma space font name"
14:21:53 [nigel]
.. in real world examples, and I'm sure I've seen that.
14:22:04 [nigel]
Glenn: I think the original DFXP implementations and TTV does permit it.
14:23:03 [nigel]
Pierre: It would be helpful and relevant to see example content here. RGBA values with
14:23:10 [nigel]
.. white spaces are more complex to process.
14:24:38 [nigel]
Glenn: I don't think the spec argues this clearly either way.
14:24:51 [nigel]
Pierre: There are no IMSC tests except for the fontFamily one that demonstrate this.
14:25:01 [nigel]
Glenn: There are some older tests for DFXP that I can go back and look at.
14:25:14 [nigel]
Pierre: At least 2 people in the world read it in a particular way, so it would be a
14:25:25 [nigel]
.. disservice to go back and change TTML1 to make implementations incompatible unless
14:25:33 [nigel]
.. we can show that many documents exist that have that issue.
14:27:34 [nigel]
Nigel: There's an example at http://bbc.github.io/subtitle-guidelines/#tts-fontFamily that shows comma separated lists.
14:28:18 [nigel]
.. I just provide this in the spirit of a single data point. Look at the second row in the
14:28:26 [nigel]
.. document requirements section.
14:29:01 [nigel]
Pierre: We may extend this to fonts but I'm not comfortable extending it across the board.
14:29:13 [nigel]
.. This is about not making existing implementations stop working just by a stroke of the
14:29:15 [nigel]
.. pen on the spec.
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14:29:27 [nigel]
Nigel: I would go back to my previous point that it should be possible to have a single
14:29:44 [nigel]
.. attribute value tokeniser algorithm rather than being required to use different ones.
14:29:56 [nigel]
Glenn: I don't think we can resolve this but I'd point out that the new conventions that just
14:30:22 [nigel]
.. went into TTML2 explicitly allow for white space around commas and semicolons where
14:30:36 [nigel]
.. they are delimited. That would extend to all argument lists that use commas for example.
14:30:48 [nigel]
Pierre: Unless there's a really compelling reason to do that I'm not sure why we'd need to
14:31:01 [nigel]
.. broaden the scope there and increase the number of test cases. Also we would need to
14:31:14 [nigel]
.. be careful about terminal and non-terminal values, what about time expressions?
14:31:29 [nigel]
Glenn: No, that's explicitly dealt with; white space is prohibited from those time expressions.
14:31:42 [nigel]
Pierre: Not in TTML1. Unless there's a really good reason, regardless of CSS, we should
14:31:49 [nigel]
.. remove flexibility rather than increase it.
14:32:03 [nigel]
Glenn: For implementers that assume that whitespace is permitted, and authors who
14:32:18 [nigel]
.. assume it is permitted then your position might make their assumption invalid.
14:32:30 [nigel]
Pierre: Only for authors. If we are going to make that change, we need to know if authors
14:32:36 [nigel]
.. have been using that capability.
14:32:44 [nigel]
Glenn: So we need more input on this.
14:32:49 [nigel]
Nigel: I agree we cannot resolve it today.
14:33:45 [nigel]
.. Specifically we would want to know if there are implementations that do not work properly
14:34:00 [nigel]
.. in the case that spaces exist, and if there are documents that include additional spaces.
14:34:51 [nigel]
Topic: TTML issue assignment and progress tracking
14:35:22 [nigel]
Nigel: Looking at the milestones, we have 36 open, 47 closed on the Editor's list for WR,
14:35:27 [nigel]
.. which is 56% complete.
14:35:39 [nigel]
.. And we have 5 open 0 closed on the Group's WR action required list.
14:36:17 [nigel]
Glenn: Approximately 22 have been closed in the last week. If I can keep up this rate then
14:36:28 [nigel]
.. we are going to be pretty close to getting to 100% by the end of this month, so that is
14:36:30 [nigel]
.. my hope.
14:37:53 [nigel]
Glenn: I noticed that Glenn has offered to work on #20 and has offered a pull request,
14:38:06 [nigel]
.. thank you for that. I'm working on an update to that pull request today. Can I assign
14:38:09 [nigel]
.. that to you Pierre?
14:38:22 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/30 How to specify aspect ratio to understand positioning that may apply for display or video
14:39:03 [nigel]
Glenn: This Pull Request will not be merged instantly.
14:39:11 [nigel]
Pierre: I don't think 3 days would be adequate for this one.
14:39:44 [nigel]
Glenn: [assigns issue to Pierre and Glenn] We're both working on this right now.
14:40:20 [nigel]
Nigel: What's next on everyone's slate for issues to pick up?
14:40:30 [nigel]
Glenn: I'm actively working on a number that I am working on. I cleared a number of the
14:40:45 [nigel]
.. assignments to myself so that others could feel free to work on them. Since then I have
14:40:49 [nigel]
.. picked up a few of them.
14:41:19 [nigel]
.. In one case I submitted a pull request that was assigned to you Nigel.
14:41:24 [nigel]
Nigel: I noticed that!
14:41:39 [nigel]
Glenn: Dae, I have a follow-on request on one of the Ruby examples that I'd like to ask you
14:41:49 [nigel]
.. to fine tune so I will coordinate with you on the side on that.
14:42:12 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/203 Add examples of new features commonly used with Japanese content (2 of 2)
14:42:25 [nigel]
Glenn: Also I'd like to point out that there are number of places in the spec where examples
14:42:39 [nigel]
.. are needed, so Dae if you have a chance and some time we would certainly welcome
14:42:44 [nigel]
.. more submissions on those.
14:43:00 [nigel]
Dae: I'll give the document another pass-through and see what I can pick up.
14:43:59 [nigel]
Nigel: There's been activity on #128.
14:44:11 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/128 The uniqueness of xml:id needs to be broken for some uses of condition
14:44:20 [nigel]
Glenn: I'll try to add some data points to that today.
14:45:07 [nigel]
Glenn: I'd appreciate it if you could pick up #224 and #156 Nigel.
14:45:18 [nigel]
Nigel: Okay I'll look at those and see if I can take them on.
14:45:32 [nigel]
Glenn: Also #135 clarify timing concepts in relation to SMIL.
14:46:47 [nigel]
Nigel: We did do some of that already, and there's a note on the issue for Pierre to add
14:46:55 [nigel]
.. something about container diagrams.
14:47:34 [nigel]
Glenn: At one point there was an ask to more formally define the times than in SMIL.
14:47:46 [nigel]
Nigel: We did the work already in the wiki, perhaps it just needs to be validated and formatted
14:47:48 [nigel]
.. into a pull request.
14:47:54 [nigel]
Glenn: My worry is it will be difficult to validate.
14:48:21 [nigel]
Nigel: In that case I would propose a WG Note explaining how we interpret SMIL in the context
14:48:23 [nigel]
.. of TTML.
14:48:36 [nigel]
Glenn: I think that's a good idea, and could be added to the spec later. We need to do it in
14:48:47 [nigel]
.. a quasi informative manner that can be validated rather than making it normative spec
14:48:54 [nigel]
.. text that may unknowingly break things.
14:49:05 [nigel]
.. I think all of us have done some implementation work on this and came up with different
14:49:14 [nigel]
.. implementations...
14:49:18 [nigel]
Nigel: That's a worrying sign.
14:49:31 [nigel]
Glenn: The amount of test content in relation to timing is pretty minimal.
14:51:07 [nigel]
Nigel: I have a lot of cases that can be generated from the EBU-TT Live Interoperability Toolkit's
14:52:00 [nigel]
.. BDD tests. That can be done for the TTML2 test suite though they are subject to some
14:52:20 [nigel]
.. starting constraints such as parallel only time container semantics, and dur only permitted
14:52:33 [nigel]
.. on body, but they would generate a large number of test documents and expected
14:52:36 [nigel]
.. processing outcomes.
14:52:53 [nigel]
Glenn: I will also need your help on #96 the extension to add date support to time expressions.
14:53:12 [nigel]
.. I need to read the comments that came in from Nigel and Addison. I'm reticent to putting
14:53:19 [nigel]
.. back in time zone support but I am open to persuasion.
14:53:56 [nigel]
Nigel: Okay. I will review that and see if I can add a further comment.
14:55:27 [nigel]
Nigel: Any further points on issues?
14:55:40 [nigel]
Dae: I will be taking a look, and need to prompt Richard Ishida on some of the open issues.
14:57:34 [nigel]
Dae: How long should we give the commenter to respond, if we're hitting the end of June?
14:57:44 [nigel]
.. Would 7 days be reasonable?
14:58:02 [nigel]
Nigel: From the Process perspective we can take a view on each issue and we only have
14:58:22 [nigel]
.. to dispose of all the wide review comments for transition to CR, so we could reassess
14:58:27 [nigel]
.. the state say in the middle of June.
14:58:43 [nigel]
Pierre: I have a slightly different view - if we take weeks to respond to a comment and then
14:58:56 [nigel]
.. give a short 7 day deadline that might seem funny.
15:02:55 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/265 No mention of isolation for directional controls
15:03:04 [nigel]
Nigel: This is assigned to you Pierre, and the last comment is from Richard.
15:03:30 [nigel]
Pierre: This is a new feature of CSS with low levels of support; unless what we have today
15:03:39 [nigel]
.. really does not work my view is to defer the feature to TTML.next.
15:03:45 [dae]
To add to scribe below "Pierre: I have a slightly different view - if we take weeks to respond to a comment and then give a short 7 day deadline that might seem funny"
15:04:10 [dae]
"Dae: This is specifically about issues where the commenter and I are actively going back and forth and one side stops replying"
15:05:09 [nigel]
Glenn: This has already entered the Unicode bidi algorithm.
15:05:18 [nigel]
Pierre: I'm not the best person to comment on this.
15:05:32 [nigel]
Glenn: Also Unicode added explicit control characters with the isolate semantics, not in
15:05:45 [nigel]
.. the bidi spec. The original reason for the bidi properties in CSS were to provide a stylesheet
15:05:58 [nigel]
.. mechanism that would express the same information as was in the explicit bidi control
15:06:10 [nigel]
.. characters that would allow authors to avoid using those characters. Given the current
15:06:20 [nigel]
.. state since it is permitted in the character content that's a case where you could not
15:06:35 [nigel]
.. represent it in style information in TTML right now whereas in CSS you can. I was going
15:06:47 [nigel]
.. to suggest that we accept this change and add the necessary properties.
15:06:54 [nigel]
Pierre: I would not object to that.
15:07:04 [nigel]
Glenn: I do agree it would be work for implementations and testing.
15:07:19 [nigel]
Pierre: imsc.js would support it to the extent that browsers support it, which is spotty.
15:07:29 [nigel]
Glenn: The community will demand it so it will come along.
15:07:38 [nigel]
Pierre: Hopefully we'll have better support when we get to PR.
15:07:48 [nigel]
Glenn: I'm adding a comment to say that I generally support this.
15:07:54 [nigel]
Pierre: I can generate a pull request for it then.
15:07:57 [nigel]
Glenn: Sounds good to me.
15:10:53 [nigel]
Nigel: We need to have at least a placeholder for an example there too.
15:11:45 [nigel]
Topic: TTML1 & TTML2 issues, action, PRs, editorial actions etc
15:18:09 [nigel]
Pierre: People interested in aspect ratios etc should look at the pull request I drafted yesterday:
15:18:18 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/321 Initial pass at rationalizing aspect ratio and pixel dimensions
15:18:31 [nigel]
Glenn: As I mentioned before I am in the process of creating a new commit for this branch
15:18:38 [nigel]
.. which will generate some further discussion.
15:18:57 [nigel]
.. This will knock off at least 2 or maybe 3 related issues which I think I've already
15:19:03 [nigel]
.. incorporated into #30 by reference at this point.
15:21:41 [nigel]
Nigel: Regarding mediaOffset Glenn and I had some email discussion.
15:21:55 [nigel]
Glenn: I need to read your message carefully on that so it's pending. We are not
15:22:06 [nigel]
.. synchronised in our understanding at this point. I don't have anything specific that I
15:22:09 [nigel]
.. need input on right now.
15:23:50 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/96 Specify date as well as hours, minutes and seconds in time expressions
15:24:25 [nigel]
Nigel: In this case I think we need the option of a timezone because there are two possible
15:24:44 [nigel]
.. valid use cases for clockMode="local", one in which just whatever local timezone applies
15:25:32 [nigel]
.. is used, so the timezone is not specified, and the other is that a specific timezone is
15:25:41 [nigel]
.. intended and needs to be specified.
15:25:47 [nigel]
Pierre: How would you encode the timezone?
15:31:04 [nigel]
Glenn: Using the same syntax as in the source for this, which is SMIL, and the timezone part is based on ISO 8601.
15:38:12 [nigel]
group: Discussion of the merits and ambiguity/clarity of including a timezone component
15:38:32 [nigel]
.. in local times - Nigel argues in favour on the basis of operational utility, understanding
15:38:49 [nigel]
.. that a local time with a timezone offset is a different way to express a UTC time;
15:39:03 [nigel]
.. Glenn and Pierre argue that if a UTC time is intended then a UTC time should be used
15:39:11 [nigel]
.. and that local times always need to be treated locally.
15:42:12 [nigel]
Nigel: In that case if we are going to use local in this way we need to clarify it.
15:42:16 [nigel]
Glenn: That seems reasonable.
15:42:21 [nigel]
Nigel: I've added a comment on the issue.
15:43:16 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/125 Add ttm:mediaTimestamp (or equivalent) attribute
15:43:21 [nigel]
Glenn: I need to review your input Nigel.
15:44:27 [nigel]
.. I also need to understand the proposal to use set in #128
15:44:34 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/128 The uniqueness of xml:id needs to be broken for some uses of condition
15:44:47 [nigel]
Pierre: I also need to consider the impact on implementations there. The bigger question
15:45:00 [nigel]
.. of when condition is evaluated was brought up, which is somewhat orthogonal but
15:45:13 [nigel]
.. something we need to consider at some point. It impacts more than just this issue.
15:45:41 [nigel]
Nigel: I agree - this was one of my earliest questions regarding the condition mechanism.
15:46:26 [nigel]
Glenn: My current position is that it needs to be resolved at presentation time. Also there
15:46:36 [nigel]
.. is a special case that can be made that some of the semantics of a style element should
15:46:51 [nigel]
.. not be ignored even though it is conditionally excluded. Because of chained referential
15:47:05 [nigel]
.. styling you might have two or three styles that refer back to something that gets incorporated.
15:47:17 [nigel]
.. If you conditionally exclude a style in the middle of a chain does that break the chain
15:47:33 [nigel]
.. or just exclude those style attributes defined by that style element?
15:47:50 [nigel]
.. This is a case where partial semantics need to be retained. I've implemented that in TTXV.
15:48:49 [nigel]
Nigel: This points to a problem possibly with the use of the term "ignore" in that it does
15:49:01 [nigel]
.. not mean that the element itself is ignored but that the things it defines are ignored.
15:49:49 [nigel]
Glenn: Yes that is exactly the case.
15:50:45 [nigel]
Nigel: So in terms of action we need to change the term ignore or define it better.
15:50:52 [nigel]
Glenn: I agree that more clarification is needed.
15:50:59 [nigel]
Pierre: It has to be added to the style resolution process.
15:51:01 [nigel]
Glenn: I agree.
15:52:28 [nigel]
.. I have some tests in the TTT test suite that test this. And condition is a feature so it ca
15:52:38 [nigel]
s/ And condition is a feature so it ca/
15:52:50 [nigel]
Topic: HDR in PNG
15:53:00 [nigel]
action-495?
15:53:00 [trackbot]
action-495 -- Thierry Michel to Update the ttwg homepage and publications pages for the new repos -- due 2017-04-20 -- OPEN
15:53:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/495
15:53:50 [nigel]
Nigel: I see that this is done.
15:54:07 [nigel]
close action-495
15:54:07 [trackbot]
Closed action-495.
15:56:49 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Publish the PQ HDR in PNG document as a Working Group Note
15:57:11 [nigel]
Nigel: I've just spotted that the ICC file claims that it has copyright with Adobe Systems.
15:57:38 [nigel]
Glenn: Apache licensing doesn't allow use of an ICC file; we had to make other arrangements.
15:57:49 [nigel]
.. It was copyright by Adobe.
15:58:00 [nigel]
Pierre: So Adobe holds a copyright on every ICC file ever made?
15:58:12 [nigel]
Glenn: No, there's a standard one that's widely used in the industry but Apache decided
15:58:18 [nigel]
.. we could not include that in any Apache project.
15:58:27 [nigel]
Pierre: This ICC file is bespoke and was made by hand.
15:59:14 [nigel]
.. Thanks for highlighting this. It was not taken from any existing tool.
15:59:26 [nigel]
Nigel: Presumably we need to update the copyright notice here to say W3C.
16:00:06 [nigel]
Pierre: I will follow up with whoever created it.
16:04:12 [Zakim]
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16:04:40 [nigel]
Nigel: I think we can resolve to publish that after making those changes.
16:04:53 [nigel]
Pierre: Okay, if I learn that we cannot change the copyright notice on the ICC I will notify
16:04:55 [nigel]
.. the group.
16:05:28 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: After applying fixes to the outstanding issues, publish the PQ HDR in PNG document as a WG Note.
16:06:05 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
16:06:12 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:14:35 [nigel]
i|-> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/265|Dae: This is specifically about issues where the commenter and I are actively going back and forth and one side stops replying
16:14:41 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:14:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:14:59 [nigel]
s| To add to scribe below "Pierre: I have a slightly different view - if we take weeks to respond to a comment and then give a short 7 day deadline that might seem funny"|
16:15:08 [nigel]
s|"Dae: This is specifically about issues where the commenter and I are actively going back and forth and one side stops replying"|
16:15:29 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:17:40 [nigel]
ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:17:42 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-tt-minutes.html nigel