IRC log of poe on 2017-03-27

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12:25:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-irc
12:25:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:25:16 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
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I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
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Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:25:19 [trackbot]
Date: 27 March 2017
12:25:25 [phila]
regrets+ Simon, Caroline, Brian
12:25:29 [phila]
Chair: Ben
12:25:34 [phila]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170327
12:25:52 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:27:49 [michaelS]
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present+
12:28:19 [ivan]
present+
12:28:32 [Serena]
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12:28:45 [renato]
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12:31:58 [benws110]
nick benws
12:32:05 [benws110]
present+
12:32:15 [victor]
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12:32:18 [victor]
hi all
12:32:30 [renato]
hi victor
12:32:37 [renato]
present+
12:32:55 [victor]
present+
12:33:30 [benws]
present+
12:33:36 [Sabrina]
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present+
12:34:08 [michaelS]
scribe michaelS
12:34:18 [phila]
scribe: michaelS
12:34:22 [phila]
scribeNick: michaelS
12:34:31 [phila]
Topic: Last week's minutes
12:34:36 [michaelS]
benws: anybody want to raise an issue with last week's minutes
12:34:36 [phila]
[NOTUC]
12:34:50 [phila]
-> https://www.w3.org/2017/03/20-poe-minutes.html Last week's minutes
12:34:54 [michaelS]
resolution: last week's minutes approved
12:34:55 [renato]
https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Use_Cases#POE.UC.37_Representing_regulations_using_ODRL
12:35:06 [phila]
RESOLUTION: last week's minutes approved
12:35:15 [michaelS]
topic: New Use Case
12:35:18 [phila]
present+ Sabrina, phila
12:35:21 [Sabrina]
present+ Sabrina
12:35:50 [michaelS]
Sabrina: introduced the Use Case
12:36:28 [michaelS]
... it models the EU General Data Protection Regulation
12:36:57 [michaelS]
... it needs to cover that at a generic level but also in details
12:37:15 [michaelS]
... Article 12 added as an example
12:37:44 [michaelS]
... this article shows the important use of references to other articles
12:38:10 [benws]
q?
12:38:10 [michaelS]
... the numbering of the articles has at least two levels
12:38:31 [michaelS]
benws: any comments on that so far?
12:38:31 [phila]
q+
12:38:35 [smyles]
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12:39:04 [smyles]
present+
12:39:07 [michaelS]
benws: does this requirement belong to a profile or to the general ODRL model?
12:39:21 [michaelS]
Sabrina: this is a decision by this group
12:39:40 [benws]
q?
12:40:05 [michaelS]
renato: what does "refer to another article" mean?
12:40:37 [michaelS]
Sabrina: that are dependencies - look at Article 12. This may transform to many duties.
12:41:17 [michaelS]
... to check if Article 12 is fullfilled the fulfillment of other articles is required
12:41:19 [benws]
q?
12:42:04 [michaelS]
phila: GDPR is very important it would be a big PR win if ODRL could show that it can cover it.
12:42:29 [michaelS]
... key question: is ODRL is a good tool for that purpose. Sabrina do you feel that?
12:42:46 [renato]
q+
12:42:51 [benws]
q+
12:42:55 [phila]
ack me
12:42:58 [michaelS]
Sabrina: ODRL is not a bad fish. We need to specify obligations and constraints
12:43:21 [renato]
s/fish/fit/
12:43:30 [michaelS]
... There is work on taxonomies by other parties but less fitting.
12:44:13 [michaelS]
renato: we could promote this as a profile. This would serve to explain how to create a profile
12:44:22 [ivan]
q+
12:44:39 [michaelS]
... and this profile could be shown to a wide audience.
12:44:45 [ivan]
ack renato
12:45:16 [michaelS]
... the relationships between the constraints and duties is demandingö
12:45:23 [ivan]
q-
12:46:01 [michaelS]
Sabrina: we have dependencies between the duties, we have constraints on duties, actions and parties
12:46:14 [michaelS]
... supported to create a profile for that.
12:47:49 [benws]
q?
12:47:49 [michaelS]
benws: to show that we could express regulations and licences by the same language would be fine
12:48:08 [michaelS]
phil
12:48:21 [michaelS]
phila: supported using ODRL for this purpose
12:49:22 [michaelS]
Sabrina: we are basically defining obligiations = duties = complying with the regulations
12:50:07 [michaelS]
... if we run into problems we will come back to this group
12:50:36 [michaelS]
... when it comes to constraints: there are discrational ones
12:50:57 [smyles]
q+
12:51:07 [phila]
ack s
12:51:12 [phila]
ack b
12:51:15 [michaelS]
s/discrational/discretational
12:52:32 [michaelS]
smyles: suggested to model optional constraints as permissions
12:52:54 [michaelS]
Sabrina: that's not exactly the intention of the GDPR
12:53:31 [michaelS]
... there are statements like a recommendation - and we don't want to omit them
12:53:56 [renato]
q+
12:54:20 [phila]
ack r
12:54:55 [michaelS]
renato: is thinking what this could look like in code: leftOperand say you may or may not use an icon
12:55:37 [michaelS]
Sabrina: need for a discretional constraint: it would be good to meet this constraint but it doesn't stop the policy
12:55:42 [smyles]
q+
12:55:59 [michaelS]
... if it is not met
12:56:39 [michaelS]
Sabrina: for her and Simon some constraints a bit fuzzy, needs deeper reviews
12:56:39 [phila]
ack s
12:57:06 [phila]
q+
12:57:08 [michaelS]
smyles: we may add a concept of recommendation = if you can, you should do that
12:57:32 [benws]
q?
12:57:33 [michaelS]
... there could be levels of recommendation: strongly recommended ... and more
12:57:49 [michaelS]
Sabrina: will review this suggestion
12:57:54 [renato]
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119
12:57:57 [phila]
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
12:57:57 [phila]
NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and
12:57:57 [phila]
"OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in
12:57:57 [phila]
RFC 2119.
12:58:16 [benws]
q?
12:58:21 [michaelS]
phila: RFC2119 is a standard specifying things like that - could help
12:58:23 [phila]
ack me
12:59:01 [michaelS]
Sabrina: Dispensation = something is required, but there is a dispensation under specific condiditions.
12:59:50 [michaelS]
... and some articles say "you are not allowed" others say "unless party X allows that"
13:00:00 [victor]
Dispensation: a : an exemption from a law or from an impediment, vow, or oath may be granted a dispensation from the rule b : a formal authorization requested a dispensation to form another lodge
13:00:09 [michaelS]
... in fact: an exception on an exception
13:00:28 [michaelS]
... may also be used
13:01:07 [benws]
q?
13:02:05 [michaelS]
renato: went over some more details of transforming DGPR into ODRL
13:02:16 [victor]
q+
13:03:05 [michaelS]
victor: thinks like that can be expressed by ODRL.
13:04:05 [michaelS]
Sabrina: we are looking not only at GDPR but also legal regulations in general - this the existing ODRL data model work for us
13:04:28 [michaelS]
s/this/is
13:04:38 [benws]
q?
13:04:38 [michaelS]
benws: what are "features"
13:04:50 [benws]
ack v
13:05:18 [michaelS]
victor: we could think about synonyms for hardwired constraints
13:05:34 [victor]
q-
13:07:01 [michaelS]
Sabrina: two more things: "Feature" = article 12 has various obligations, some are well defined, some don't stand on their own.
13:07:19 [michaelS]
... we are looking at conjunctions and disjunctions in this context
13:07:41 [benws]
q?
13:07:43 [michaelS]
... transparency is the conjunction of all of them - we call them Features at the moment
13:08:41 [michaelS]
Sabrina: we need additional constraints on the asset - they will span across multiple duties
13:09:18 [michaelS]
renato: ODRL scope could work
13:09:25 [michaelS]
Sabrina: agreed
13:10:04 [smyles]
q+
13:10:23 [michaelS]
... we have an issue with the type of processing - e.g. how personal data may be used for marketing
13:12:00 [michaelS]
smyles: the purpose is to define the nature of a party - right?
13:12:22 [michaelS]
Sabrina: yes, depending on who you are rules may apply
13:13:02 [michaelS]
smyles: why not to split up in constraints for group A and group B of persons
13:13:03 [phila]
ack s
13:13:12 [benws]
q+
13:13:32 [michaelS]
smyles: wondered if inheritance could be used
13:14:32 [michaelS]
Sabrina: the controllers for different purposes are different
13:14:33 [renato]
q+
13:14:47 [michaelS]
... we look at what's there and then will come back to this group
13:15:11 [michaelS]
... the Wiki space could be used for discussions
13:15:16 [michaelS]
benws: timeline?
13:15:43 [benws]
q?
13:16:04 [michaelS]
Sabrina: there are different groups of work: e.g. transforming the article and the sub-points - but that's not very usable.
13:16:34 [michaelS]
... in a next step obligations have to be pulled out of the articles - and that's a big work, will take months.
13:16:50 [michaelS]
benws: does this timeline align with the ODRL timeline?
13:16:54 [michaelS]
Sabrina: yes.
13:16:56 [benws]
ack be
13:16:58 [phila]
ack r
13:17:01 [benws]
ack r
13:17:07 [michaelS]
renato: do we need a new policy type "regulation"?
13:17:09 [michaelS]
Sabrina: yes
13:17:55 [michaelS]
benws: supported to use Wikipages for working on the transformation
13:18:02 [phila]
Topic: Deliverables
13:18:03 [michaelS]
Topic: Deliverables
13:18:12 [renato]
https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:18:15 [phila]
s/Topic: Deliverables//
13:18:43 [michaelS]
renato: went over https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:19:14 [renato]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poe-comments/2017Mar/0012.html
13:19:43 [benws]
q?
13:19:44 [michaelS]
... we got a reply from EDRLabs
13:20:05 [renato]
https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/118
13:20:14 [michaelS]
... raised some concerns regarding periods
13:20:43 [michaelS]
... this needs an update of the definitions of date/time and period constraints
13:20:56 [michaelS]
renato: re Horizontal reviews:
13:21:05 [michaelS]
... any news from Brian?
13:21:12 [michaelS]
benws: has sent a reminder
13:21:13 [benws]
q?
13:21:42 [michaelS]
renato: reviews seem to be on track
13:22:17 [michaelS]
benws: refered to a proposoal of Victor to hold a special meeting
13:22:49 [michaelS]
... = a call
13:23:23 [benws]
q?
13:23:24 [michaelS]
benws: asked Victor to launch a Doodgle survey for finding date and time
13:23:39 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:23:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:24:00 [michaelS]
Topic: best practices
13:24:30 [benws]
q?
13:24:33 [michaelS]
benws: tried to reach out to James from Catapult, but the email did not work
13:24:50 [michaelS]
Topic: open Actions
13:24:59 [michaelS]
benws: only 3 on the issue tracker
13:25:02 [phila]
s/RESOLVED: last week's minutes approved//
13:25:20 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:25:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:25:33 [renato]
https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/114
13:25:58 [michaelS]
Topic: London F2F
13:26:03 [phila]
s/RESOLUTION: last week's minutes approved//
13:26:13 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:26:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:26:59 [michaelS]
benws: open issue is providing hotel rooms at TR rates - but Sabrina may have an alternative
13:27:37 [michaelS]
victor: would appreciate to have times for the agenda items
13:27:53 [michaelS]
bens: starting time 10am - ok?
13:28:10 [ivan]
q+
13:28:46 [michaelS]
renato: agenda will be based on requests from group members and currently ongoing work
13:29:05 [ivan]
will there be possibiltiies for dial in?
13:29:16 [michaelS]
benws: suggested 5:30pm as closing time
13:29:19 [ivan]
thanks
13:29:26 [michaelS]
benws: it will be possible to dial in too
13:29:41 [michaelS]
benws: AOB?
13:29:41 [benws]
q?
13:29:47 [benws]
ack i
13:30:00 [michaelS]
benws: none was raised - bye
13:30:01 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
13:30:07 [Serena]
Serena has left #poe
13:30:23 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
13:30:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/27-poe-minutes.html phila
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