14:55:13 RRSAgent has joined #dap 14:55:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-irc 14:55:15 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:55:15 Zakim has joined #dap 14:55:17 Zakim, this will be DAP 14:55:17 ok, trackbot 14:55:18 Meeting: Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference 14:55:18 Date: 17 November 2016 14:55:27 Chair: FJH 14:55:43 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html 14:55:49 Regrets: Anssi 14:56:10 fjh has joined #dap 14:56:47 trackbot, start telecon 14:56:50 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:56:53 Zakim, this will be DAP 14:56:53 Meeting: Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference 14:56:53 Date: 17 November 2016 14:56:53 ok, trackbot 14:57:20 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html 14:57:30 fjh has changed the topic to: das agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html 14:57:45 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 14:57:52 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 14:58:05 Regrets+ Anssi_Kostiainen 14:58:17 Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements 15:00:52 Present+ Tobie_Langel 15:07:16 Present+ Wanming_Lin 15:09:16 Anssi regrets through new year 15:09:55 Topic: Battery 15:10:12 dom: only on critical path for Battery, also awaiting decision from Chromium whether to retain, also need to know about Microsoft implementation 15:10:20 scribeNick: fjh 15:10:50 Topic: Wakelock 15:14:31 dom: Andrei has action to update based on TAG and github comments - major revision to address concerns about attribute on doc object 15:14:54 dom: may also change to be applicable not only to screens but also to system resources 15:15:06 fjh: that sounds like a useful increase of scope 15:15:19 Topic: Coordination activities 15:15:51 dom: Geolocation working group needs to decide whether and when to start v2, likely plan is to wait for other sensor work first 15:16:21 dom: also during TPAC there was interest from the Web Bluetooth Community Group (including NFC) to bring work to DAS 15:17:00 dom: to do so will require re-chartering, but with the new process that limites review to new deliverables 15:17:00 s/including/and also possible Web/ 15:17:13 s/limites/limits/ 15:17:27 Topic: Minutes Approval 15:17:35 Approve minutes from 6 October 2016 15:17:36 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Oct/att-0004/minutes-2016-10-06.html 15:17:36 proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 6 October 2016 are approved 15:17:43 RESOLUTION: Minutes from 6 October 2016 are approved 15:17:58 Topic: Generic Sensor 15:18:26 https://github.com/w3c/sensors/milestone/2 15:18:36 tobie: triaged issues left on generic sensor API for level 1 release 15:18:58 … tagged and ordered 15:19:06 … many privacy and security related (about 1/2) 15:19:21 … some refactoring of API, talked with Intel implementers 15:19:57 … need to rethink core principles in spec 15:20:11 … leading to better design 15:20:46 … fingerprinting issue will require a decision 15:21:30 fjh: which core principles 15:22:02 tobie: for current sensors two requirements - 1 for small set of sensors for motion, set polling frequency, control data received 15:22:34 … for other sensors, only new requirement beyond existing specs, on change sensors, don’t get data until data changes despite initial request 15:22:55 … so have frequency based, or implementation dependent for others 15:23:34 … feedback for implementers to provide frequencies in both cases, but need to figure out how to present to developers 15:23:45 fjh: use long frequency 15:24:09 tobie: not so simple, don't get at requested frequency if OS considers no change in data 15:24:40 … can request a frequency but can get lower frequency, how often data changes is tied to how accurate sensor is 15:24:45 … makes sense 15:25:13 … e.g. light sensor that distinguishes light and day versus sensitive sensor 15:25:36 … not a problem if data provided whether or not data has changed, but becomes a problem for platforms where it is an issue 15:25:48 … so is this important, how to surface to developers 15:28:29 … need to clarify for developers the relationship of the API to the underlying platform 15:29:05 … extent of issue is not clear 15:29:46 … gaming experience is to run test to see if it works to know what to do 15:30:29 … not clear that there is a problem or not 15:30:48 … will work on modeling this week and next to make sense of it, then will go there 15:31:04 fjh: that sounds useful 15:31:16 tobie: we have questions about whether we have requirements that only work on some platforms 15:32:28 … quality of implementation versus hard requirement for frequency 15:32:34 fjh: graceful degradation 15:32:52 tobie: not sensible for virtual reality if person is vomiting 15:32:53 https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/145 15:32:54 fjh: true 15:33:04 permissions 15:33:34 tobie: have 28 issues 15:33:43 … 6 issues need research 15:33:54 s/need/need further/ 15:34:04 … 11 privacy or security related issues 15:34:13 … rest are part of refactoring or small chanbges 15:34:25 s/chanbges/changes/ 15:34:49 … closing small issues while also working on bigger issues 15:35:05 Topic: Generic Sensor Permission Issue 145 15:35:12 https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/145 15:35:41 tobie: do we ask for permission before checking whether a sensor exists or not 15:36:02 … problem if have 15 sensors on device - finger printing issue 15:37:15 fjh: maybe ask higher level question, e.g. if need 5 sensors ask only one question 15:37:18 tobie: right 15:38:09 … different question - developer wants to use 5 sensors, ask for permisison to use gyroscope, vs asking if gyroscope is available 15:38:25 … risks include fingerprinting, knowing whether expensive device etc 15:40:41 tobie: need to think this issue through 15:41:32 fjh: next steps beyond your work 15:41:54 tobie: would like input on github. Will have to make decisions, but we need more data to make good decisions. 15:43:02 ,,, may want to give some implementer choice in spec - write as most useful to developers, add caveats for fingerprinting and security risks, allow implementers to make privacy/security aware choices 15:43:22 s/,,,// 15:43:30 s/ may/… may/ 15:43:51 fjh: seems good approach, get implementer experience 15:43:56 tobie: also TAG review 15:44:03 … need usability 15:45:03 tobie: getting close, have implementations 15:45:31 Topic: Upcoming calls 15:45:40 Next call 1 Dec, then 15 Dec 15:45:53 Topic: Other Business 15:45:54 none 15:45:58 Topic: Adjourn 15:46:04 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:46:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:46:56 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:47:00 Regrets- Anssi 15:47:06 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:47:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:48:13 S/Chair: FJH/Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 15:48:23 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:48:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:48:47 s/trackbot, start telecon// 15:49:14 s/also to system resources/also to system resources; discussed on last call/ 15:49:54 s/ use long frequency/ use long frequency for case where single value needed?/ 15:50:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:50:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh 18:02:32 Zakim has left #dap 19:54:37 zkis has joined #dap