IRC log of dap on 2016-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:13 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:15 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be DAP
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ok, trackbot
14:55:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference
14:55:18 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2016
14:55:27 [dom]
Chair: FJH
14:55:43 [dom]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html
14:55:49 [dom]
Regrets: Anssi
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trackbot, start telecon
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RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:56:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference
14:56:53 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2016
14:56:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
14:57:20 [fjh]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html
14:57:30 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: das agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Nov/0018.html
14:57:45 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
14:57:52 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:58:05 [fjh]
Regrets+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:58:17 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements
15:00:52 [tobie]
Present+ Tobie_Langel
15:07:16 [wanming]
Present+ Wanming_Lin
15:09:16 [fjh]
Anssi regrets through new year
15:09:55 [fjh]
Topic: Battery
15:10:12 [fjh]
dom: only on critical path for Battery, also awaiting decision from Chromium whether to retain, also need to know about Microsoft implementation
15:10:20 [fjh]
scribeNick: fjh
15:10:50 [fjh]
Topic: Wakelock
15:14:31 [fjh]
dom: Andrei has action to update based on TAG and github comments - major revision to address concerns about attribute on doc object
15:14:54 [fjh]
dom: may also change to be applicable not only to screens but also to system resources
15:15:06 [fjh]
fjh: that sounds like a useful increase of scope
15:15:19 [fjh]
Topic: Coordination activities
15:15:51 [fjh]
dom: Geolocation working group needs to decide whether and when to start v2, likely plan is to wait for other sensor work first
15:16:21 [fjh]
dom: also during TPAC there was interest from the Web Bluetooth Community Group (including NFC) to bring work to DAS
15:17:00 [fjh]
dom: to do so will require re-chartering, but with the new process that limites review to new deliverables
15:17:00 [dom]
s/including/and also possible Web/
15:17:13 [fjh]
s/limites/limits/
15:17:27 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes Approval
15:17:35 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 6 October 2016
15:17:36 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2016Oct/att-0004/minutes-2016-10-06.html
15:17:36 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 6 October 2016 are approved
15:17:43 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 6 October 2016 are approved
15:17:58 [fjh]
Topic: Generic Sensor
15:18:26 [tobie]
https://github.com/w3c/sensors/milestone/2
15:18:36 [fjh]
tobie: triaged issues left on generic sensor API for level 1 release
15:18:58 [fjh]
… tagged and ordered
15:19:06 [fjh]
… many privacy and security related (about 1/2)
15:19:21 [fjh]
… some refactoring of API, talked with Intel implementers
15:19:57 [fjh]
… need to rethink core principles in spec
15:20:11 [fjh]
… leading to better design
15:20:46 [fjh]
… fingerprinting issue will require a decision
15:21:30 [fjh]
fjh: which core principles
15:22:02 [fjh]
tobie: for current sensors two requirements - 1 for small set of sensors for motion, set polling frequency, control data received
15:22:34 [fjh]
… for other sensors, only new requirement beyond existing specs, on change sensors, don’t get data until data changes despite initial request
15:22:55 [fjh]
… so have frequency based, or implementation dependent for others
15:23:34 [fjh]
… feedback for implementers to provide frequencies in both cases, but need to figure out how to present to developers
15:23:45 [fjh]
fjh: use long frequency
15:24:09 [fjh]
tobie: not so simple, don't get at requested frequency if OS considers no change in data
15:24:40 [fjh]
… can request a frequency but can get lower frequency, how often data changes is tied to how accurate sensor is
15:24:45 [fjh]
… makes sense
15:25:13 [fjh]
… e.g. light sensor that distinguishes light and day versus sensitive sensor
15:25:36 [fjh]
… not a problem if data provided whether or not data has changed, but becomes a problem for platforms where it is an issue
15:25:48 [fjh]
… so is this important, how to surface to developers
15:28:29 [fjh]
… need to clarify for developers the relationship of the API to the underlying platform
15:29:05 [fjh]
… extent of issue is not clear
15:29:46 [fjh]
… gaming experience is to run test to see if it works to know what to do
15:30:29 [fjh]
… not clear that there is a problem or not
15:30:48 [fjh]
… will work on modeling this week and next to make sense of it, then will go there
15:31:04 [fjh]
fjh: that sounds useful
15:31:16 [fjh]
tobie: we have questions about whether we have requirements that only work on some platforms
15:32:28 [fjh]
… quality of implementation versus hard requirement for frequency
15:32:34 [fjh]
fjh: graceful degradation
15:32:52 [fjh]
tobie: not sensible for virtual reality if person is vomiting
15:32:53 [tobie]
https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/145
15:32:54 [fjh]
fjh: true
15:33:04 [fjh]
permissions
15:33:34 [fjh]
tobie: have 28 issues
15:33:43 [fjh]
… 6 issues need research
15:33:54 [fjh]
s/need/need further/
15:34:04 [fjh]
… 11 privacy or security related issues
15:34:13 [fjh]
… rest are part of refactoring or small chanbges
15:34:25 [fjh]
s/chanbges/changes/
15:34:49 [fjh]
… closing small issues while also working on bigger issues
15:35:05 [fjh]
Topic: Generic Sensor Permission Issue 145
15:35:12 [fjh]
https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/145
15:35:41 [fjh]
tobie: do we ask for permission before checking whether a sensor exists or not
15:36:02 [fjh]
… problem if have 15 sensors on device - finger printing issue
15:37:15 [fjh]
fjh: maybe ask higher level question, e.g. if need 5 sensors ask only one question
15:37:18 [fjh]
tobie: right
15:38:09 [fjh]
… different question - developer wants to use 5 sensors, ask for permisison to use gyroscope, vs asking if gyroscope is available
15:38:25 [fjh]
… risks include fingerprinting, knowing whether expensive device etc
15:40:41 [fjh]
tobie: need to think this issue through
15:41:32 [fjh]
fjh: next steps beyond your work
15:41:54 [fjh]
tobie: would like input on github. Will have to make decisions, but we need more data to make good decisions.
15:43:02 [fjh]
,,, may want to give some implementer choice in spec - write as most useful to developers, add caveats for fingerprinting and security risks, allow implementers to make privacy/security aware choices
15:43:22 [fjh]
s/,,,//
15:43:30 [fjh]
s/ may/… may/
15:43:51 [fjh]
fjh: seems good approach, get implementer experience
15:43:56 [fjh]
tobie: also TAG review
15:44:03 [fjh]
… need usability
15:45:03 [fjh]
tobie: getting close, have implementations
15:45:31 [fjh]
Topic: Upcoming calls
15:45:40 [fjh]
Next call 1 Dec, then 15 Dec
15:45:53 [fjh]
Topic: Other Business
15:45:54 [fjh]
none
15:45:58 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:46:04 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:46:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:46:56 [fjh]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:47:00 [fjh]
Regrets- Anssi
15:47:06 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:47:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:48:13 [fjh]
S/Chair: FJH/Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
15:48:23 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:48:47 [fjh]
s/trackbot, start telecon//
15:49:14 [fjh]
s/also to system resources/also to system resources; discussed on last call/
15:49:54 [fjh]
s/ use long frequency/ use long frequency for case where single value needed?/
15:50:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:50:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/17-dap-minutes.html fjh
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