See also: IRC log
<tzviya> invite rrsagent #mathonwebpages
<tzviya> invite trackbot #mathonwebpages
<clapierre> title: Math On Web Pages
<tzviya> scribenick: pkra
<clapierre> scribe: pkra
pkra: anything for the agenda?
jos: last time, intros. We all saw that there's a problem. How do we get to a concrete taks?
Dani: good idea. I started collecting samples. Would be a good thing for next meeting.
Jason: can share some desmos to
make mathquill accessible (aria alerts)
... could talk about that.
tzviya: there's now a TPAC slot for this group. Plans?
pkra: should we have more discussion about meeting times?
Charles: having monthly works well for now.
<jwmerrill> monthly meetings also seem good to me
jos: it's the summer. But this works well for me.
pkra: ok, so let's keep this time and rhyth for a few meetings at least.
https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages
pkra: we have a github repo
https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/
scribe: there's a basic page now.
Dani: I would like to see
examples, in particular for things that we want to see
fixed.
... I'm working on something but not yet public.
... baseline alignment, vertical stacks, stretching
<clapierre> s/clappierre/clapierre/
pkra: what other ideas for examples / use of repo?
tzivya: would be great to see some examples of using aria
jason: [screenshare of editing
with VO on desmos]
... typing is being read back
... mathquill's internal model of edit tree. We've added
aria-alerts that trigger when moving in the expression.
... there's a PR to mathquill.
... any questions?
Charles: the Braille. Is it Nemeth or just text?
Jason: just VO's feature now.
We've been experimenting with a braille output.
... [more demo]
... this is an experiment right now but have been working on
translating to UEB but might do Nemeth as well.
tzviya: how do you structure math to trigger alerts?
jason: mathquill uses
input/output LaTeX but an internal expression tree
... different from MathML
... hard to explain.
tzivya: just trying to look at aria alert and can't quite match it up.
jason: there's a div and we push alerts into it.
pkra: this is very similar to what MathJax's a11y / Speechruleengine does.
tzivya: we should write something up about this to tell ARIA people.
peter: IIRC, this kind of semantic tree format is very common, people keep inventing something like it.
Dani: are you using live regions?
Jason: not 100% sure. It would be good to have the engineer on.
Jos: I like converting from
formula, then converting to an expression that can be
evaluated.
... that's something I'm very interested in.
... looking for a set of components to interact with each
other
jason: adding semantic
information is the magic behind it. For Desmos is mostly
proprietary. MathQuill is all public / OSS
... Perhaps for another time but interested in discussion of
semantic vs presentation.
... in this system not thinking about it too much
... not sure what the motivation is to get semantics to AT
since visual users also don't just derive that information.
Dani: we also just do open/closed-parens instead of semantic approach.
tzivya: could you clarify what you think of with "semantics"?
Jason: good point. Easier perhaps
to talk about examples. f ( x) could be function applied to an
element x, or multplication of f and a term x.
... making that distinction is what I think of.
pkra: thanks for the
screenshare
... how much do you think the internal model structure will be
documented?
jason: really for Han to say. But we'd like to be more .
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/26
pkra: this was an issue I raised
a while back.
... in that issue is a link to a couple of example of mine
http://codepen.io/pkra/pen/zqrwQx
... I'm interested in "deep labels", so that speech-text is in
there and navigation is by usual methods.
Charles: should we try to look for something along the lines of the DPUB ARIA module?
Dani: that sound like a good path.
tzviya: on the one hand, DPUB
module has been 2 years of solid work.
... on the other hand, pkra argued that it would lead to
re-encode most of MathML in ARIA roles.
<tzviya> most recent version of ARIA Best Practices is at https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/master/aria-practices.html, but math section has not changed
<jos> http://mathjs.org
pkra: maybe let me try: if you
really want to be sure something gets across as integers, then
you can't rely on any presentational structure. You need a role
or an element (a la Content MathML)
... and then you add all those specifics.
... but there's still lots of ground to build on.
... mathjs is an example where you have very precise semantics
and you can do great things. Most textbook material is very
different.
Jason: also have the impression that the fact that math notation is still here, 40 years after programming is common, tells us something.
tzivya: aria 1.1 is about to be
published.
... aria 2 is going to be significant change. Might be more a
programming language.
... but definitely handle more complex use cases.
... writing something up that we can show them, show what the
needs are.
... that would be useful, even if this group has other
concerns.
... we should get on the ground for 2.0 work starting up.
Charles: second that. Collaborating with ARIA should be very good.
pkra: I've been thinking about
summary labels to provide description for both labels and
summary describing the subtree
... e.g., long expression but also SVG images should be
similar.
... red brick house => door with windows.
Charles: just talked to Doug Scheepers who's looking it a larger project
<tzviya> SVG Accessibility API Mappings are about to publish. That already makes SVG significantly more accessible than in the past
tzviya: SVG Accessibility API Mappings are about to publish. That already makes SVG significantly more accessible than in the past
pkra: from the conversation
starter: machine readability
... I've been wondering about the usefulness of microdata /
schema.org style to markup partial information so that search
can be improved.
tzivya: thinking mostly about
machine readability for processing / computation.
... at Wiley, authors presenting data is more valuable than the
article. Runnable code is even better.
Charles: are you suggesting to propose something for schema.org?
<jos> https://www.wikiwand.com/nl/Mathcad
pkra: probably not, more internal
purposes, e.g., for publisher.
... e.g., what science.ai does
jos: do you know MathCad (see
link)
... being able to interact with the computation.
pkra: looks similar to IPython / Jupyter.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/clappierre/clapierre/ Succeeded: s/different/similar/ Succeeded: s/important/ what I think of/ Found ScribeNick: pkra Found Scribe: pkra Inferring ScribeNick: pkra WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Present: tzviya clappiere pkra jos jwmerrill Dani johnp WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Got date from IRC log name: 28 Jul 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-mathonwebpages-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]