IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2016-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:30 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:30 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc
14:57:32 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:32 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:34 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:57:34 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot
14:57:35 [trackbot]: Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:35 [trackbot]: Date: 28 April 2016
14:57:42 [Kim]: chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:58:03 [Kim]: agenda?
14:58:07 [Kim]: Agenda+ Finalize touch and pointer guideline
14:58:09 [Kim]: Agenda+ Next Steps
14:58:57 [Kim]: Regrets+ Patrick, Chris, Jon, Henney
14:59:20 [Kim]: Regrets+ Henny
15:00:47 [Kathy]: Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:53 [Kathy]: present+ Kathy
15:01:18 [Kathy]: present+ Kathy
15:01:30 [Kathy]: Chair: Kathy
15:01:32 [Detlev]: Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:37 [David]: David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:42 [MichaelC]: regrets+ MichaelC
15:06:30 [Kim]: Kathy: yesterday's coordination call – I brought up that we are basically ready to get feedback for touch pointer from working group and larger group. Working on getting this posted to the interest group as well to solicit feedback. Request – post such an pointer without the rest around it. The concern is there are a lot of discussions going on about what the model should be and how that's...
15:06:31 [Kim]: ...going to ultimately look but I don't want us to have to wait until that's been decided. So in order to do that were going to pull out touch and pointer as a separate document away from everything else – right now it's package is a formal extension and we need to package it as just touch and pointer for them to look at.
15:07:10 [Kim]: Kathy: we are on the agenda for the WCAG call next Tuesday, working on language to get it to the mailing list
15:07:27 [Kim]: Kathy: this meeting is our last one to make any final tweaks
15:07:48 [Kathy]: https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#touch-and-pointer
15:08:12 [Kim]: Jeanne walking us through understanding
15:08:50 [Kim]: Jeanne: I added sentences about pointer. Added definition of pointer from another W3C document so we are consistent
15:09:29 [Kim]: Jeanne: suggestion from Patrick – this also applies to pointer events on nonmobile platforms
15:10:26 [Kim]: Jeanne: added "except where specifically noted touch is assumed to include pointing devices" Patrick said should not include mouse – group needs to discuss
15:10:57 [Kim]: Jeanne: definition of pointer according to W3C includes the mouse.
15:11:39 [Kim]: Kathy: worried about having that last sentence in there at all, pointer devices are much smaller – pen or stylus don't need 44 x 44 pixel touch target size for that, so I think that's specific to touch
15:12:00 [Kim]: David: if we do need a mouse we should say it. People pull these things out of context
15:12:21 [Kim]: David: we're better off saying it whereever we need to
15:12:55 [Kim]: David: I've had usability experts misunderstand because they have not read the understanding document
15:14:53 [Kim]: David: another word for devices?
15:15:03 [Kim]: Kim: Platform?
15:15:33 [jeanne]: Platforms today can be operated through a number of different devices including touch, stylus, pen, in addition to mouse and keyboard. Some platforms such as a mobile device are designed to be primarily operated via gestures made on a touchscreen. Other devices can be operated by a number of different devices, such as a pen, stylus, or mouse, which may be generically referred to as a
15:15:33 [jeanne]: pointer. This section also applies to pointer events on non-mobile platforms.
15:16:39 [Kim]: Kathy: you automatically get it because you say working with touch – if it's only working with pointer it's mimicking mouse input at which point we don't have an issue because it's not touch enabled and therefore not going to work well with the platform technology anyway
15:17:37 [Kim]: Jeanne: also thinking of the Apple pencil, which can do more
15:18:44 [Kim]: David: pointer doesn't include touch is that right?
15:19:10 [Kim]: David: pointer, in brackets including touch every time?
15:20:29 [Kim]: Jeanne: the pointer events working group designed a specification – wouldn't want to walk away from that. What I would like to do is anytime were talking about just touch say touch and use pointer as the generic term
15:21:14 [Kim]: David: our definition says it's all the same. Developer is going to want to distinguish between touch and pointer
15:21:42 [Kim]: David: walking a very fine line between do we want to be – is it technically correct and nobody can understand us or do we want to take some leeway
15:22:10 [Kim]: Kathy: instead of "except where noted…" Change to when were talking about pointer devices we are including everything, when we say specifically touch only touch interaction
15:23:31 [Kim]: Jeanne: looking at it and I think we should say for single touch and pointer – make that an and
15:23:40 [Kim]: David: I think that could work well
15:25:11 [jeanne]: Anywhere where we say "touch and pointer" we recognized that touch is included in the definition of pointer, but we include touch for clarity for those less familiar with pointer.
15:26:27 [Kim]: David: although our definition of pointer includes touch, we use "touch and pointer" for greater clarity
15:26:41 [Kim]: David: when we use just touch, we mean just touch
15:26:52 [jeanne]: Although the definition of "pointer" includes touch, we include touch and pointer for clarity. WHen we use the term touch, we just mean touch.
15:27:21 [Alan_Smith]: Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:28:13 [Kim]: Kathy: if we do that we don't really need to change any of the success criteria for that
15:29:43 [Kim]: Discussing handling comments
15:30:42 [David]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4
15:31:32 [Kim]: Jeanne: 2.5.4 email to list just before meeting. CSUN presentation flagged for me they were starting with a size significantly larger than the size we had been talking about. Looked at other research has been done about pixel size, minimum touch target size and I'm concerned that we're going out with too small touch target size
15:31:49 [Kim]: David: we can say the actual size is a placeholder we are still engaged in research on what the numbers should be
15:33:10 [Kim]: Kathy: Microsoft did research on this – people are more successful with larger touch target size I think it was 48 x 48. If you wanted people to be more successful like voting – no room for failure larger touch target size. We say that in understanding – if larger touch target size is needed…
15:33:30 [Kim]: Jeanne: also research on fall off – there's a point where increasing touch target size didn't significantly increase accuracy
15:33:59 [Kim]: Kathy: Microsoft says the average width of a finger is 11 mm. Larger than that the accidental mistaps drop off significantly
15:34:19 [Kim]: Jeanne: that's research for people without disabilities, people with dexterity disabilities minimum is 20 as opposed to 11
15:34:51 [Kim]: Kathy: 2 mm is 10 pixels. 20 mm is 100 pixels wide
15:35:09 [Kim]: Jeanne: that's such a big difference that I don't think we can just use that as a placeholder
15:35:33 [Kim]: David: when you're talking about that size you're really talking about using assistive technology to repurpose – magnification that makes targets larger and re-flows them on the screen
15:35:55 [Kim]: David: something that takes the home screen and puts everything in one line instead of a grid so you can have huge target sizes…
15:36:28 [Kathy]: Apple touch target size: https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/MobileHIG/LayoutandAppearance.html
15:36:31 [Kim]: Jeanne: I'm concerned that over the years I've been involved in conversations about how W3C needs to use research to form their standards – this is one of those rare occasions where there is research to form our standards
15:37:04 [Kim]: Kathy: I agree, we need to pay attention to research – we have to look at the validity of the research too
15:37:22 [Kathy]: Android touch target size: https://developers.google.com/speed/docs/insights/SizeTapTargetsAppropriately
15:37:48 [Kim]: Jeanne: set up wiki page with research
15:37:49 [Kim]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Summary_of_Research_on_Touch/Pointer_Target_Size#Summary_of_Research_on_Touch.2FPointer_Target_Size
15:39:05 [Kim]: Detlev: realistic approach – minimum that still acceptable and for accommodation that larger is better keeping in mind that there's also the issue of how much screen real estate – if you have a small mobile screen to fit it in. Near impossible to design something that will actually work if every element is actually that size
15:39:20 [David_]: David_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:39:26 [Kim]: Jeanne: also research on that
15:40:06 [Kim]: Detlev: obviously get better results if touched eyes is bigger but also trade-offs of screen real estate and what you're able to see at the same time
15:40:14 [Kim]: +1
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15:41:43 [Kim]: Detlev: the critical thing is what do we settle for as a proposed minimum target size, and then larger if appropriate. 9 mm at the start, research 20 mm, also smaller sizes that are offset – you don't need text llink target that's 20 mm
15:42:06 [Kim]: Detlev: so also the offset to other target sizes we need to capture
15:44:33 [Kim]: Kathy: Put this out with specific questions – what should be the touch target size and we can point to this research that Jeanne put together and get feedback. We're not going to solve this now.
15:45:32 [Kim]: Jeanne: I think calling it out is good – concerned that we don't have a group that deals with dexterity
15:46:36 [Kim]: Detlev: the same argument could follow that justifies that there's no minimum for text size – you just have this requirement to enlarge by 200%. The argument there will be there're always ways of increasing text size – on mobile built-in on the system level
15:47:09 [Kim]: Detlev: it would be better to make those requirements and say we're not talking about magnification because that forces you to do it by section, and that's harder
15:47:49 [David]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4#Proposed_2.5.4
15:51:35 [Alan_Smith]: + 1
15:52:30 [Kim]: Kathy: Pulling this out into a separate document – status of document will have any questions that we want to pose to people for comment. That information that's in the wiki will go into this section of this new page we've created
15:53:37 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the wiki.
15:53:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-48 - Update 2.5.4 understanding to match the wiki. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].
15:59:11 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate document from the Extension.
15:59:11 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-49 - Split off touch and pointer into a separate document from the extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].
16:00:32 [jeanne]: action: add Acknowledgements section
16:00:32 [trackbot]: Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:01:02 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch & Pointer and Extension.
16:01:03 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-50 - Add ackowledgements sections to touch & pointer and extension. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-05-05].
16:44:07 [Kim]: Zakim, list participants
16:44:09 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, 1
16:45:26 [Kim]: Present+ Kim, Detlev, David, Jeanne, Alan
16:45:36 [Kim]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:26:40 [Kim]: Kim has joined #mobile-a11y
17:26:57 [Kim]: rrsagent, bye
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to update 2.5.4 Understanding to match the wiki. [1]
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-53-37
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to split off Touch and Pointer into a separate document from the Extension. [2]
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-59-11
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: add Acknowledgements section [3]
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-00-32
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to add Ackowledgements sections to Touch & Pointer and Extension. [4]
17:26:57 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/28-mobile-a11y-irc#T16-01-02