18:43:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:43:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-aapi-irc
18:43:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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18:43:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:43:40 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:43:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:43:41 <trackbot> Date: 05 April 2016
18:43:53 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:44:05 <clown> agenda: this
18:44:22 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2008 (Cynthia/Joseph) Handle concept of description property for UIA - merged, final review.
18:44:31 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1569/ACTION-2032/ISSUE-540 (Cynthia/Jason) Section on AAPI differences - merged, final review.
18:44:42 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2012/ACTION-2013 (Joseph, Cynthia) UIA mappings for landmark roles, pull request merged: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/272 — close?
18:44:58 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2041 (Joseph/James/Joanie) AXAPI mapping for role="application", specifically change AXLandmarkApplication subrole.
18:45:05 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1668 (Rich/Alex) Add IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK for IA2.
18:45:15 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1541 (Joseph/Joanie) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property -- update progress.
18:45:26 <clown> agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23 (start with ACTION-1373)
18:45:33 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:45:42 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:45:48 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:45:55 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:48:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:54:55 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 12-Apr-2016, 20:00 UTC)
18:57:37 <Rich> Rich has joined #aapi
19:00:05 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:15 <joanie> regrets+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:00:18 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:00:50 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:01:36 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:01:40 <clown> http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/TextInputPassword.html
19:02:49 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:03:11 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:08 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:06:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-2008 (Cynthia/Joseph) Handle concept of description property for UIA - merged, final review." taken up [from clown]
19:06:19 <clown> action-2008?
19:06:19 <trackbot> action-2008 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Handle concept of description property for UIA -- due 2016-03-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:06:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2008
19:06:29 <joanie> JS: You all should have a look at this even though Cynthia is not here.
19:06:34 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#accessible-names-and-descriptions
19:06:37 <joanie> JS: I did want her approval.
19:06:48 <joanie> JS: If you first go to the above URL in the Core AAM.
19:07:09 <joanie> JS: In the fourth paragraph, it says (Joseph reads)
19:07:14 <joanie> RS: MSAA does?
19:07:19 <joanie> JS: That's my question.
19:07:26 <joanie> JS: This is Cynthia's text.
19:07:33 <joanie> RS: I believe she's got it wrong.
19:07:40 <joanie> RS: This is a UIA property.
19:07:48 <joanie> JS: I'll ask Cynthia about that.
19:07:55 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaDescribedBy
19:08:01 <joanie> JS: Next place to go is the above URL.
19:08:08 <joanie> JS: The first sentence is new.
19:08:14 <joanie> RS: (Reads text)
19:09:00 <joanie> RS: Do they have the reverse relationships in UIA?
19:09:03 <joanie> JS: I don't know.
19:09:09 <joanie> JS: I don't think so, but I'm not sure
19:09:27 <joanie> RS: I think they should, but what does Joanie think?
19:10:05 <joanie> JD: It depends.
19:10:26 <joanie> RS: Where I think it matters is with things like aria-details.
19:10:33 <joanie> RS: You need to go back.
19:10:44 <joanie> JS: But then that's a platform issue; not a spec issue.
19:10:51 <joanie> RS: I think they should consider this.
19:11:00 <joanie> RS: It might be a performance problem, but at the end of the day....
19:11:06 <joanie> RS: Can we raise an issue for this?
19:11:17 <joanie> RS: This is new API on the platform, but can we raise it?
19:11:22 <joanie> JS: Sure. Why not?
19:11:48 <joanie> JS: The issue we're looking at (here at this meeting) is the addition of the sentence for the new description property.
19:12:13 <joanie> s/description property/UIA description property/
19:13:07 <joanie> RS: Do you want me to send Cynthia an email?
19:13:28 <joanie> JS: Yes please. If she replies that the reverse relationship exists, then we can open an issue against the Core AAM.
19:17:48 <joanie> JS: I will ask Cynthia about the reference to MSAA.
19:17:57 <joanie> JS: And close this action.
19:18:03 <joanie> JS: If need be I'll open a new action.
19:18:07 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:18:07 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1569/ACTION-2032/ISSUE-540 (Cynthia/Jason) Section on AAPI differences - merged, final review." taken up [from clown]
19:18:13 <clown> action-1569?
19:18:13 <trackbot> action-1569 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2016-02-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:18:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
19:18:33 <joanie> JS: Jason and Cynthia wanted to add a section about API differences.
19:18:42 <joanie> JS: They gave me text. I've added it in.
19:18:52 <joanie> JS: I need them to confirm what I've done is what they want.
19:19:01 <joanie> JS: We have three actions pending review, waiting for them to respond.
19:19:07 <joanie> JS: The section in question is:
19:19:14 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#comparing-accessibility-apis
19:19:28 <joanie> JS: There's a little blurb about each platform.
19:19:41 <joanie> JS: And also about name and descriptions and the API differences.
19:19:49 <joanie> JS: Do we want to discuss this any further today?
19:20:11 <joanie> RS: (Reads)
19:20:22 <joanie> JS: IA2 is not mentioned anywhere.
19:20:37 <joanie> RS: And it's used in a couple of browsers: Chrome and Firefox.
19:20:42 <joanie> JS and RS: On Windows.
19:20:56 <joanie> JS: Anything you want to say about it?
19:21:08 <joanie> RS: It's very similar to ATK/AT-SPI2 in terms of the information it provides.
19:21:38 <joanie> RS: The client/server situation for GNU/Linux is different.
19:22:01 <joanie> RS: Perhaps we should make a statement about IA2 being similar, but lacking that client and provider relation.
19:22:09 <joanie> JS: At this point, I just want to leave it alone.
19:22:14 <joanie> RS: This is not a normative section.
19:22:39 <joanie> RS: But what you probably should do.... You have this first sentence. It should probably be outside the first paragraph.
19:22:50 <joanie> RS: Then go into Linux/GNOME stuff.
19:23:06 <joanie> RS: You bury them in the ATK/AT-SPI2 section.
19:23:15 <joanie> RS: (Reads more)
19:23:24 <joanie> RS: UIA actually does separate out a client and provider side.
19:23:32 <joanie> RS: But they don't document the provider side.
19:23:39 <joanie> RS: UIA is actually the client side.
19:24:17 <joanie> JD: But you don't implement the client side. So who is reading this?
19:24:27 <joanie> RS: We're testing AT-SPI2; not ATK.
19:24:39 <joanie> JS: I agree. And it depends who the audience is.
19:24:57 <joanie> JS: User agent implementations care about ATK; testers about AT-SPI2.
19:25:09 <joanie> RS: UIA is only implemented by Microsoft, I believe.
19:25:18 <joanie> RS: I hope we have convergence at some point.
19:25:45 <joanie> RS: If we could create an API that's specific to the web as the starting point, and go from there. That would be the right thing to do. A lot easier, I would think.
19:28:23 <joanie> JD: (Makes nitpicky clarification about "new API" versus "a new API".)
19:29:00 <joanie> RS: If you don't want to write an IA2 section, you could reference all of them at the top.
19:29:12 <joanie> RS: And then refer to it later (e.g. in ATK/AT-SPI2).
19:29:36 <joanie> RS: Then if people really want an IA2 section, they can write it. :)
19:30:04 <joanie> JS: I'll do this. Though it won't be my top priority, given other work I need to complete.
19:30:07 <joanie> action-1659
19:30:07 <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1659 does not exist.
19:30:17 <joanie> action-1569
19:30:17 <trackbot> action-1569 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2016-02-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:30:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
19:30:31 <joanie> JS: I'll add a comment to action-1569 to make this change.
19:33:43 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:33:43 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-2012/ACTION-2013 (Joseph, Cynthia) UIA mappings for landmark roles, pull request merged: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/272 — close?" taken up [from clown]
19:33:56 <joanie> JS: I'll skip this one.
19:34:04 <joanie> JS: I merged her changes in.
19:34:11 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:34:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, joanie
19:34:19 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
19:34:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
19:34:20 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:34:20 <Zakim> 4. agenda+ ACTION-2041 (Joseph/James) AXAPI mapping for role="application", specifically change AXLandmarkApplication subrole.
19:34:23 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:34:23 <Zakim> agendum 4. "agenda+ ACTION-2041 (Joseph/James) AXAPI mapping for role="application", specifically change AXLandmarkApplication subrole." taken up
19:34:33 <clown> action-2041?
19:34:33 <trackbot> action-2041 -- James Craig to AXAPI: New subrole for role="application" since 'AXLandmarkApplication' no longer applies (application role no longer a landmark) -- due 2016-03-21 -- OPEN
19:34:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2041
19:35:00 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155403
19:35:03 <joanie> JS: The role application is no longer a landmark, but it's been mapped forever to AXLandmarkApplication.
19:35:15 <joanie> JS: There is a bug in WebKit's bugzilla. (Link above)
19:35:23 <joanie> JS: Nothing has happened since March 12th.
19:35:53 <joanie> RS: Joanie, when you check with Apple about DPub, could you ask about this bug?
19:35:56 <joanie> JD: Sure.
19:36:33 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-application
19:38:59 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#application
19:39:27 <clown> "When there is a need to create an element with an interaction model that is not supported by any of the WAI-ARIA widget roles, authors MAY give that element role application. "
19:39:42 <joanie> RS: What people were using role="application" for was to indicate they would handle all application navigation.
19:39:59 <clown> "And, when a user navigates into an element with role application, assistive technologies that intercept standard input events SHOULD switch to a mode that passes most or all standard input events through to the web application."
19:46:01 <joanie> JS: So now that role="application" is no longer a landmark, the current situation seems to be that it's going to have AXRole of AXGroup, but the subrole will need to change.
19:46:13 <joanie> RS: You still need to know it's interactive and not steal the keys.
19:46:31 <clown> "Don't use AXApplication since that's reserved for native apps."
19:46:32 <joanie> RS: AXGroup won't accomplish that, so there needs to be a subrole to communicate that.
19:46:48 <joanie> JS: The text above is in the bug comment.
19:47:39 <joanie> JS: Does AXAPI have an enumerated set of subroles, or can they be created when needed?
19:47:42 <joanie> JD: Not sure.
19:47:45 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:47:45 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1668 (Rich/Alex) Add IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK for IA2." taken up [from clown]
19:47:55 <clown> action-1668?
19:47:55 <trackbot> action-1668 -- Alexander Surkov to Add a ia2_role_landmark to ia2. this will tell ats to look at the xml-roles value for landmarks -- due 2015-07-07 -- OPEN
19:47:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1668
19:48:08 <joanie> JS: This is one of yours, Rich.
19:48:12 <joanie> RS: Me?
19:48:20 <joanie> RS: They already said they'd do this.
19:48:24 <joanie> JS: Really?
19:48:34 <joanie> JS: Do you have a link to the discussion?
19:48:49 <joanie> RS: I posted to the list awhile back.
19:49:15 <joanie> JS: This is due on the 7th of July.
19:49:24 <joanie> RS: I'm looking.
19:50:01 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0375.html
19:50:05 <joanie> RS: Here's the first post (above)
19:50:45 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0380.html
19:50:55 <joanie> RS: (Reads from above URL)
19:51:08 <joanie> RS: So Jamie and Surkov have responded.
19:51:31 <joanie> JS: But in that message, Jamie says that he'll leave it to someone else to talk to the other screen reader vendors.
19:51:44 <joanie> RS: I talked to Freedom Scientific. They seem fine with it.
19:53:16 <joanie> RS: I'll check with Alex Surkov.
19:53:23 <joanie> JS: I'll assign the issue to me.
19:53:56 <joanie> agenda?
19:54:06 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:54:06 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1541 (Joseph/Joanie) AXAPI mapping for aria-modal property -- update progress." taken up [from clown]
19:54:14 <clown> action-1541?
19:54:14 <trackbot> action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
19:54:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
19:54:24 <joanie> JS: There is aria-modal and the mapping.
19:54:30 <joanie> JS: Apple has implemented it already.
19:54:44 <joanie> JS: Joanie investigated the mapping and provided a description of what she found.
19:54:45 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaModalTrue
19:54:52 <joanie> JS: We have this slot in the mapping spec (above link).
19:55:09 <joanie> JS: We have stuff in there for the other APIs, but nothing yet for AXAPI.
19:56:08 <joanie> JS: It appears that Apple is not so much exposing aria-modal as they are pruning the rest of the tree.
19:56:18 <joanie> JS: Is that correct, Joanie?
19:56:45 <joanie> JD: That was my take. But I believe I also stated that I was not Apple and that it would probably make sense to check with Apple to be sure.
19:56:54 <joanie> RS: What you are describing is really expensive.
19:57:03 <joanie> RS: (Describes a viewport-based solution)
19:58:04 <joanie> JS: Getting back to the previous question, we need to know what AXAPI does.
19:59:11 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138566#c23
20:04:54 <joanie> JD: I just commented on the bug, asking Chris to provide the official mapping for AXAPI's exposure of aria-modal.
20:05:17 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:05:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:05:23 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:06:44 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:06:51 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop