<scribe> scribe: clapierre

title: Accessibility DPUB Task Force Weekly Meeting

Current Note http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/

George: Aftershocks Wired and microphone. cheeper is without a mic.

Charles: We will be showing the IDPF a draft of the note in Baltimore for the IDPF meetings in Feb.

Tzviya: we have a lot to do to clean this up before the meeting so we have 4 weeks. We have been writing this Note for the W3C in mind. We need to look at this with fresh eyes, and make sure we are saying what we want to say.

George: With EPUB 3.1 how will a baseline work. Will it be a profile of 3.1. This could also apply to 3.0.1. Its an more exact set of MUSTS which some of them could be tested in EPUBTEST. Then develop this profile so it can be updated overtime and raise the bar. As AT/reading systems improve we could raise the profile to reflect those changes in technology. Its a little tricky on how we will reference WCAG

The profile would elaborate on more. Since this profile will reference WCAG AA then this becomes an important point in OUR NOTE.

Tzviya: we may not use Profile since that could turn people off.

Kathy: I don't know what profile means.

Tzviya: this is exactly why we need to define this better. its a module, its not part of the core spec, but this is more an optional module spec. The core spec would reference this as a SHOULD, and when ran through EPUB check there would be Warnings flagged for violations, but we can elevate this later to a MUST which then would flag these violations as errors.

Kathy: I will pass this onto Patrick here. Its a wonderful initiative, sounds like Accessibility will be a lot more mandatory not fueled by wanting to sell?

George: this would be part of the certification piece, where 20 publishers were there. Looked like they were asking for a certification process. Also the reading systems need to be certified so good certifiable content, but a reading system that doesn't access this content then the user needs to know that as well.

Kathy: if we could have A11Y Certified that would be great.

George: Generally within the IDPF and publishing industry there is this desire to have more accessibility. Society has changed and we need support this change with specification/certification.

Tzviya: We need to focus on this meeting on this Note. We have 2 lines about WCAG. We need to have the support of the WCAG WG. We need to spell out there will be a mapping. If we are creating a certification tool. The concept of a package is not addressed in WCAG at all. This is where concepts of skipiblity / escapability in the package level.

George: when we looked at A and AA WCAG we went through every single item and identified what applied and what didn't apply and there wasn't much that didn't apply. Can we just add a column and identify that this applies?

Tzviya: quantifying how hard something is difficult.

Kathy: I have access to ios/windows/android developers. It is easy to ask them what things are easy/difficult to do.

George: I was thinking of what is difficult for publishers

Kathy: Oh I was thinking of difficult to do for Reading systems.
... , I do have access to developers that can help us. There are a couple VO features in v1 (ie. the rotar) but Image Descriptions are easy. If I can provide any help let me know.

Tzviya: I think having the reading systems view is very important.
... , Are we changing the view of the NOTE to W3C or now also adding in IDPF.

George: we need to address both. The 508 Refresh is going to include publications and I am pretty sure that they would apply WCAG AA to published documents. That could make this NOTE very important

Tzviya: We need to add WCAG to multiple documents interact with each other ie. the package. Only links are addressed in WCAG.

George: have you looked more at the extension.

Tzviya: I do not want to be the test again like ARIA.

George: if this becomes a module or profile of epub 3.1 having that in place and working is a great stepping stone to WCAG extension. It would be easier to achieve in IDPF, given the time frame of completion 2016. I think we could leave the W3C extension work until later. But keeping it in mind so its not difficult later on.

Tzviya: the Extension is written so broadly it could be considered for multiple document. Could be as simple as making web pages to "Web content". Comes down to the dozen of validators out there.

George: We can just reference the WCAG AA in our note. Some of them may be more difficult and we could note that. We can also go beyond what WCAG states pagination, etc...

Tzviya: I think we can go through and address the difficulty level. We need to flag the issues which are not addressed, and from a baseline perspective what is difficult to address.

George: we have one set of what these apply, and here is another set of things which aren't even touched in WCAG. Sounding like this Note is bigger than the NOTE and is becoming the profile or something.

Tzviya: this would identify the issues that are missing, and when we go to the profile that we can raise issues of difficulty.

George: Ok that makes our job easier?

Tzviya: Yes for now :)
... , I think its worth acknowledging in this NOTE that we will be addressing the issues of implementation difficulty and this concept of a baseline will exist.
... , looking through this document as it stands. This concept of a package needs to be addressed.

George: Navigation, pagination, do we have document structure?
... , do we do reading order logical? we has no concept of what is read first on a page.

Tzviya: WCAG is intentionally vague. That would go under make text readable and understandable.

George: WCAG is very general and we are applying it to Publishing, and this note needs to identify things for publishing and accessiblity not in WCAG.

Tzviya: adding a note about reading order makes sense. But that is not unique to publishing.
... , ACTION add Reading Order and Package Structure and Navigation

George: I don't know if WCAG addresses Navigation.

Tzviya: it does.
... , As long as you are using ARIA, you can have your content in P-soup P's and Divs as long as its enriched with ARIA you are fine. So doing something like in edupub with a very strict use of what HTML elements are used and where. Because there are disagreements it would be impossible to put that in some validation public tool.

George: with using only spans and divs… ARIA implying the semantic layer seems like it is removing one level.

Tzviya: I don't think we are going to be able to sell this.

George: interesting.

Tzviya: if you think back to the IDPF debates with heading levels, and what goes into asides...

George: all of those tags came out of AAP ISO standard
... , OK what are we going to do here?

Tzviya: I think we should have a conversation with Matt on his recommendation on structure.

George: Markus has joined our call once.

Tzviya: it is late for him. Moving away from that.
... , what else do we want to see in WCAG or in a mapping document in the IDPF?

George: So some things map and others are very general. Making the text very understandable. No Kidding. Publishers dont' want to write jibber jabber. We can just say it applies and doesn't map directly to anything in the spec. We are actually mapping this to HTML. Now this has been generalized and we are mapping it back to HTML.

Tzviya: What we will want to do for the mapping is look at success criteria, ARIA, PDF, and EPUB. And there is ref. to Silverlight.

George: I got out voted to remove ref to Silver light.

Tzviya: Success Criteria for text, ARIA Label and we can have pointers to specifications.

George: the adoption of ARIA is new but being rapidly being added. How does Readium and others handle ARIA and pass this along to VO, etc.. My screen reader tells me this clickable but I can't click it.

Kathy: Not off the top of my head. I can ask around.

George: My screen reader is reading web pages and it says clickable its not a link not an a, but it doesn't work.
... , I think they are applying ARIA to these things and they are not doing the right thing.

Kathy: send me a link to what you are talking about.

George: I was on idevices.com couldn't get to their documentation.

Kathy: I have an ace on someone I can ask to do some a11y testing.

George: idevicesinc.com

Tzviya: ACTION add to the Future work section about the baseline and difficulty.

George: I think this is Future work, and get this to a First level in 2016 that would be great.

Tzviya: Remember this is Notes. There is nothing preventing from publishing another one and is less formal We can publish as many was we want.

George: we don't want to be criticized on what we put out there.

Tzviya: we want to look at what we already did, Drop cap is another but we want.
... I will take on Package Structure and Navigation

George: I will take on Reading Order
... , but I am going on vacation and may not have time. I will take a look at things which have been written before. Structure guidelines that DAISY produced. Its all XML, but I am sure there is something in there about reading order and will copy/paste and send it to Charles. and include a link to where I got this from.

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Present: Charles LaPierre Tzviya George_Kerscher

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