See also: IRC log
<Can> q_
<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
mk: we chatted yesterday
not all people understand the challenges of reordering the dom
some concerns about true in practice, not just true in theory
I´m coming to understand that some things will be inherently inconvenient by the nature of the functionality
and that there isn´t an actual problem
cyns said the horse is out of the barn and it´s unreasonable to ask people to reorder the dom
now I wonder if we should challenge that, rather than challenge the css wg
<JF> Preseent+ JF
which I see as fantasai´s view
cw: @@ we should leave to AT to recognize inherent order, other structure in the content
should not put too many constraints on css
we should expand capability of at
<JF> Scribe: JF
JN: don't see many places where you wouldn't want to re-order the tab order to match screen layout
can't see a circumstance where you wouldn't want to maintain this
MCK: sort of agree - is changing the dom order very difficult?
JN: why? Changing the dom order negattes the layout
MCK" maybe the purpose is when you *want* the visual order and reading order to be different than layout order
Florian: think one difficulty is that visual layout is 2-d mapping, which makes a difference in the liniar layout of reading order
when you use flexbox, it's a 2-d layout
you place the content in the source-order according to importance, but the layout can change that
CSS WG have focused on - if you use the DOM correctly, you place things according to importance
there are ways of authors to do it right, and ways to do it wrong
cannot create a system that disallows authors to use it improperly
have similar problems with floats, etc. - not a new problem
if we have to solve this meta-problem, we need to fix it in more than flex-box
if authors use meaningless DOM order, and then try to fix it via CSS, then this is the wrong approach, but cannot forbid authros fromdoing tis
cyns: would like to see the "Must not change tab order" provision
different ways of "reading" a page - touch, screen magnifyer (which could have the magnifyer jump around)
ditto with keyboard navigation - and this will also touch on reading and learning disabilities - these all rely on a crrelation between visual and logic order
cyns: think that this should be fixed in user-agent layer
different needs for different user-stories
MCK: don't want browser to remove things that aren't specified behavior?
<discussion o which WGs would be involved here>
cyns: user interface
Florian: when dealing with visual layout, there is one way of doing it
<fantasai> Florian was explaining that in 2D layouts, the visual reader will read things in an order that is not necessarily ltr-ttb.
<fantasai> Based on other visual cues provided by the author.
when we talk about different types of user agents, then there are different ways of doing things - if we have to standardize on each combination of input and output devices, then standarizing this is very hard
<fantasai> The author is responsible for providing a DOM order that matches the preferred reading order.
cyns: would reverse recommendation from MUST NOT to Should or May
mck: I disagree strongly with that (changing tab order)
JS: don't have clear concensus in our house, so we should go back and continue to discuss - suggest we move to other topics
JN: reading pointer out loud
MCK: sounds like an sauthor statement, not a UA statement
cyns: getting visual order and dom order out os sync is a problem
mck: disagrees
florian: not primary goal of flex-box
cyns: order matters, and having order match matters
<laughter>
MCK: the author statement sounds like not what we want
cyns: essentially, getting layout order and dom order out of syn is generally bad
<joanie> Statement being discussed can be found in https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility
fantasai: for visual design, L-R, T-B is not always the order, it can be many variants of that visually
visual order can also be dictated by things like size, color, imagery, etc. - many other things that go into visual perception
if you say that the page must read L-R, T-B then that may not actually make sense
<joanie> And/or may be here: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-flexbox/#flow-order
Fantasai: @@ the order that you read things in visually is going to be similar in most cases, but may have variants
and that can change as well based on device and screen size
so you should allow the user to explore the page in a spacial manner
<Zakim> janina_, you wanted to say some of the problem arises from touch interfaces--explore vs swipe
<fantasai> but the page should be in the logical reading order
<fantasai> which is not necessarily the same as its spatial layout, ltr-ttb
JS: number of usecases exploded with new interfaces, especially touch
so yes, for magnification etc. this is a problem, ditto for when using sip/puff and focus jumps around
but when you explore via touch this gets even more complex
where they want to explore the layout as well as the DOM order
and it may not be a logical reading order
this manifests on touch - when you explore it may be out of sync, but swyping will give you a DOM order - there is a big disconnect here based on how the non-sighted user explores the page
cyns: depends n what kinds of tech and AT you are using
there is also another issue - when interacting with a web app
getting frmo "text to send button is a logical experience
recalls a thing where they looked at nested grides (etc.) - made sense from a code perspective, but tab order was totally messed up
MCK: agree that the goal is to
have a logical tab order that is generally speaking in the
traditional L-R pattern, and taht we'd like a common experience
when exploring with different models
... @@
use flexbox when youneed to to get the layout and DOm order
JW: predictability for the author is fundemental, so that the DOm has a logical reading order
<fantasai> mck (earlier): There have been cases where to get the right layout, the author has changed the DOM order from its logical order to get that effect, and in Flexbox we have the tools to do that while preserving the correct source order, and correct tab order. Flexbox allows us to fix this kind of problem. Follow the MUST NOT recommendation to a T and use the right tool for the right job.
cyns: proposal that this should not be in the standards layer, its a UA layer things
<Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that moving things in the DOM is much less performant and harder programming than using CSS.
cyns: having different things based on different devices is UA issue, not spec issues
having a universal thing that does it all reasonably is not realistic
JN: the issue with CSS is an
algorythm is how to define how things are laid out - that's
what CSS is
... want to echo Cyns point - devs will break things
JS: think we understand the issues better - so thanks
JN: read from issue list noted Thursday
JS: starting at bottom - where are we with system colors and base fonts
CYNS: want to be able to say color: system button color
<astearns> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color/#system-colors
fanasai - this has been deprecated however, but it must still be supported
but it is archaic - does not reflect modern browser interfaces and modern OSes
<astearns> (at least 8 different *text colors)
Cyns: what replaces it?
fantasai: nothing today - if you are trying to make a button look like a system button there isn't a way today
JN: notes that the deprecated issue replace by CSS apperance property, but..
fantasai, that's being dropped too
florian: we are still looking at this, and there is brainstorming going on
this is a thing that affects more than a11y - authors want this for other purposes too
fantasai: form input styling was implemented by Moz, and found that authors were breaking things
<Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if this impacts high-contrast, and is that even an issue today?
Florian: looking at this from 2 angles - system color issue, and also whether or not the OS should fix th epage, or whether the page fix itself
general approach is to do this with media queries - that the page makes the statement and then it fixes itself
then there is also the situation where you want to go to inverse colors - you want to do that for text etc., but not images for example
so this is where the discussion is, but not there yet
cyns: 2 scenarios - good devs doong good jub, and then what happens when they do a bad job? make taht a UA issue?
Florian: similar here is when user wants to print, and you want to turn off images - if the user knows a better way to do things they should be empowered to do so
Rossen: sounds like interaction between content layer and host layer (browser/OS)
browsers do thigs differently - addressing this is too hard
but the other issue is who should be in power when user wants to make a change - one school of thought is that the browser has control
or we can say leave it in the content layer, and instead make a polite request
wth media query approach, we can advise overall system colors have been changed - we can communicate that browser has "pulled the plug" too bad, or the other option is
to be more polite and give the choice
so if the dev wants to respect "theming", because the host is not communicating any useful data to make logical changes [sic]
the struggle comes when you need a uniform presentation system across the board, and if we give authors the ability to participate in changing that, then they need full participation
cyns: if users don't know what they are doing, then browsers should make reasonable suggestions
but if author wants to specifically provide a high-contrast mode, then everyhting needs to be stylable
MC: base-fonts - was in HTML
were the author specifies something about the font based upon an uderstanding
with CSS now, there is a system level setting for pefered typeface, color, weight, etc.
and authors could express things relative to *that* - for example authors like to make things smaller, but user has a "larger font setting"
fantasai: we hve the REM unit for that today
a lot of authors take up font-size @@
and don't take advantage of this, but if authors leave the root alone, they can take advantage of this
<astearns> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-values/#font-relative-lengths
fantasai: REM units can be used on all kinds of things, margins, spacing, headings,
there was a discussion around this and media queries, which looked at layout issues around this
EM units were hared due to math, but REM units are easier - but lack of author awareness today
Rossen: funny enough, we were talking about he education problem, and arrived at that - there is an action item to write good documentation and best practices
fantasai: we need to ensure that it is accessible, and we have taken this as an action item
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to mention wcag techniques, and best practices
<fantasai> Best practices for a11y is a core part of best practices for CSS
<fantasai> JF: Conceptually, we're looking to be more pro-active rather than reactive, and getting people embedded in groups to improve things
<fantasai> JF: Want to get some of our ppl more directly embedded in groups
MC: notes that WCAG WG working on similar issues
JF: discussion about embedded SMEs in other WGs
hober: there are a bunch of other values you can have above system font sizes
sounds like perhaps yo need to file a bug
JS: introducing braille CSS
JW: perhaps not best person to talk about this, but there were ast efforts to develop braille style sheets
there was work done many years ago, but now D-Pub re-surfacing this
looing at Daisy, who are using CSS to impact their print layouts
<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/media.html#media-types
<hober> I was referring to various values that can be set on the font shorthand (e.g. font: caption); see https://drafts.csswg.org/css-fonts/#font-prop for the whole list
Florian: so you are talking about braille-print?
JW: differences between braille output and print, yes
JS: another issue is COGA
COGA doing gap analysis and hve been working on this - how to address those types of issues
they are almost complete with gap analysis - loads of information, but it needs to be distilled into an executive summary
<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
jf: there´s a need to distinguish literal from non-literal language uses
e.g., ¨it´s raining cats and dogs¨ is non-literal
could embed literal alternate content like ¨it´s raining very hard¨
and user could prefer which they want
fantasai said that might be doable with ruby
does that work for this?
fantasai: ruby annotates base text
jf: but this is a replacement
fantasai: you can replace the base text with the annotation
jf: maybe that would work
<mhakkinen__> +q
but anyway for now we wanted to let you know we´re exploring this kind of thing
the coga group has put together a lot of use cases
though it´s a big doc, not expecting you to read that just yet
we´ll try to distill it
ra: is this alternate or supplementary?
jf: alternate in markup, but might be replaced
mh: this is big in assessment
provide simplified text for language users
we need to do both text replacement and text supplement
dk: sounds like conditional text, from earlier XML efforts
so it´s a general problem
jf: has it been discussed recently?
dk: no but would be interesting
<JF> JW: moving onto media queries
<janina_> scribe: JF
<MichaelC> jw: a11y has been evolving towards presenting content customized to needs of user
a shift towards more responsive and personalized interface based on user preferences
<MichaelC> based on a profile expressed as preferences
as opposed to "the blind view" [sic]
question now is how to bring those preferences to the UAs
JW: what we expted to see is that ARIA WG will exand on this, but it seems that media queries will play a major role
so there may be an architectual discussion that will need to happen if there is also a need for an API
there is work happening outside of W3C in this area as well
so another heads up to CSS WG taht there may be anothder discussion
JN: want to note that there are possible security issues here, as well as the issue with testing concerns
Florian: recall seeing this before - for example can you express if a Screen Reader is present
interest there as well, but there were also concerns around privacy, and concluded that CSS WG is not the place to work that out
hober: we are interested in this
as well
... the existing system preferences differ greatly on platofrms
as well
think that its important to figure out how to express these preferences in an independant way
other issues: there are many more user preferences than there are system settings - need to think about if we re trying to make things to adapt to the user config, or to expose preferences beyond different scenarios
second one sound scary-hage
hober: in Indie UI there was some work done there...
JS: sounds like we need to carefully scope this to esnure we have a clear understanding of all of the issues
<break>
<hober> joint meeting with dpub is in #dpub
<joanie> scribe: joanie
MH: Shadi is the staff contact
for the task force.
... Previous incarnation of R&D group is gone. It did not
get rechartered.
... The APA charter includes reference to a research task
force.
... What is the name of this task force? What is it trying to
achieve?
... We want to make it clear what this task force is trying to
do so.
... We're trying to identify gaps in accessibility that we can
then research in order to fill the gaps.
... We also want to share the results of the research with
groups which are not part of the W3C.
JB: An alternate view on the
naming question: I've spent a lot of time talking to those who
commented on the charters so that I understood the reasons for
their concerns.
... Several organizations objected to folding the scope of any
R&D work into APA.
... After divesting APA from its ARIA work, which was seen as a
distraction in the past, there was concern that R&D might
prove to be another/new distraction.
... For R&D there were a series of online webinars.
... So Mark and I have been discussing names so that it's clear
that we're still focusing on spec reviews.
... With the reframing and follow-up discussion, the concerns
about this work seem to have been addressed.
... And the relevance to accessibility seems to be better
understood.
MH: We need to start a process
forward for this group operating in the context of APA.
... Do we need a separate mailing list? Do we start looking for
participants? What are our priorities?
... Can we help the COGA process in any way?
... What can we possibly do regarding role proliferation (e.g.
with DPUB)?
... RDWG partipation in the past was good. Do we approach those
people?
... In the past, we generated symposia and associated
reports.
... That is not our present model or what we will be doing.
JW: One of the opportunities
which this task force creates: APA, with its own resources and
collaboration with other working groups, is identifying other
issues for research.
... Of course, the task force can do this autonomously.
... But collaborating with other groups with interest in this
area would be helpful towards addressing architectural issues
with respect to W3C technologies.
JB: I don't know how much impact
this group will be able to have on W3C as a whole.
... For many member organizations, connecting with research is
not a top priority.
<mhakkinen> +q
JB: These organizations often
prefer to develop and examine the results.
... My guess is that in order to attract people to the group,
you'll need a clear picture about how to conduct this work.
<shadi> [[Accessibility Research Tracking (ART) TF]]
JB: Scientific panels and the
like probably won't be a good fit.
... By the same token, we don't want to discard that
approach.
... Some organizations like, with light overhead, to bring
people together to dig into a topic. For instance, for a day or
so.
... Such a mode might be a sweet spot of one organizational
approach.
... And then say, "this is the fishnet we want to capture your
questions with."
... With a spec review, you are sometimes lacking sufficient
time and just want to identify any possible issues with that
spec.
... And you don't have time to dig in or write a paper.
... So maybe a combination of these two approaches would be
good.
MH: I wanted to echo the point
about the symposia.
... I do think we have a heavy model before.
... I'm in favor of a lighter-weight mini symposia.
... I'm also interested in participating in
accessibility-related conferences (e.g. CSUN and ICCHP and
ASSETS)
... I would like to be more proactive in that regard.
<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask about direction of interaction
Shadi: I had a similar question
about the workflow.
... If APA is looking at, for example, Web Of Things. Would
this task force go out and look at what already exists? Or
would it put the questions out to the research and/or
accessibility communities? Or maybe both.
... There's going to be a lag in response time.
... How do we see the process with respect to identifying the
issues and then interacting with the communities.
MH: We have the task force
members themselves with domain expertise.
... But as part of our work, we'd utilize our task force as a
means to solicit input.
... Finally we'd reach out to a broader (beyond W3C) group.
JB: My first response is: Why
would it be an either or? It depends.
... The kinds of questions identified will have an
extraordinarily broad range.
... A particular feature, if tweaked, might go from a narrow
scope to something with much broader applicability to
disability groups.
... But you have to first prove that such an approach is useful
to the secondary needs.
... For instance, something useful for individuals who are
blind/visually impaired might prove useful for individuals with
cognitivie impairments. But initially, that would be
speculation.
... In some other case, we might conclude it will take a couple
of years to work out.
... In some cases, we might make a checklist and then identify
a subset of items to take on.
RS: Two questions: First one:
When doing research, whom are you going to engage? Pure
researchers? Members of W3C who are not researchers?
... Second question: Have you thought about a process for
prioritizing things?
MH: With respect to the first
question, I think we're going to be fairly open in trying to
identify the best people to address these questions or develop
them further.
... I'm not going to pre-define whom we go to.
... I think we need to be open.
... To the second point, I've not had time yet to identify
processes for prioritization.
... We're not going to set our own agenda. We have to be in
consensus with others.
... Let's get the questions defined and then move forward.
Shadi: I appreciate those
answers. And I agree that we'll have different types of
questions with different types of timelines.
... I'm just wondering if we'll be going out now and inviting
people to participate in this taskforce.
... I'm not sure if the charter is clear in this regard. And I
don't know if that is the place to do so.
... We can then go out and solicit participation.
MH: I've not been involved in the
start up of a task force before.
... What is the proces for task force formation?
JB: The nuts and bolts are:
You'll ned a task force work statement, and at least one task
force facilitator.
... There's a process involving the chair and consensus of the
group.
... You'll also want to get in touch with your domain
lead.
... You'll also need to set expectations for
participation.
... Michael is very good and knowledgable about those.
... I think what's important is to take the transformation that
I think Shadi has already started doing with the original task
force scope. And then transmogrify it into the spirit of the
altered/clarified scope that is in the APA charter.
... Almost start fresh and do a good cleaning on it. And then
get feedback on it from the working group and also from some of
the non-current participants in the working group with a strong
research interest.
... I would also solicit feedback from those who had
concerns.
... Then if you work out some talking points with everyone in
the working group.
... My hope is that you'l have significant overlap with the
other working group activities and members.
... We're also really hoping that you (Mark) can help with your
connections to external research organizations.
... In the past, something we don't want to repeat, is drawing
from regional research and non-profit organizations that are
outside of those driving work within the W3C.
... That resulted in a disconnect between the group and members
in W3C.
MH: During the rechartering
process, I was really looking for ways to get more
participation from member organizations, in particular
industrial organizations.
... This is definitely on my list.
JS: I guess my concern is that we
don't see this cross participation between core APA people and
people interested in research (other than Mark and
Jason).
... I don't know if we're going to need to recruit for
that.
... I think what I'm hearing from APA core members is that they
agree this work needs doing, but might not be able to
participate.
... How we solve it, I don't know. But we do need to solve
it.
... One thing we're hoping to do is to have subject area
expertise as part of core APA so that we have people we can get
input from as we review specs.
... We want to find a set of people involved with both the
review activities and the task force.
JB: Given that it's late on
Friday, I would not be discouraged by the smaller number of
people in the room at this time.
... But I do agree with your concerns, Janina.
... Getting clear and predictable ways to involve people in
this process would be beneficial.
... Janina, as the APA chair, if you could identify those
tasks/questions the group could take as well as the more
challenging task/question ("hyena") for the task force.
... In other words, if you have predictable planned steps (id
tagging and a handoff).
... The clearer the process, the more likely people will be to
partipate.
RS: I think that the thing is....
I cannot emphasize this enough: Whatever you do for research,
in order to get more people involved in the discussion, I think
it's important to sit down and think of the business value to
companies.
... This doesn't happen enough.
... One example is more focus on cognitive accessibility.
... You can consider the work currently going on as
research.
... But one business use case is the aging population.
... There are huge business opportunities in this space.
... It's the type of thing that will cause people to stop and
think, "while I'm really busy in these other areas, I'll make
time because there are important business opportunities."
MH: I agree.
... I don't think it's appropriate at this point to say that
we're conducting research.
... We're identifying issues.
... But other than that I agree.
... Through collaboration with member organizations and also
outside organizations, we can look at these questions and then
try to get them answered. But our group itself won't be doing
the answering.
JW: We're talking about
identifying research that bears on important questions that
arise in the development of accessible technologies through
specification review.
... And it's not just identifying the issues, but also
informing our review process, if I'm understanding
correctly.
... I think the specific processes for doing this will evolve
over time.
JS: We might also want to look at other task force work statements as examples for ours.
JB: I'd really like to see this
task force take off.
... Let's identify who is doing what.
<Judy> ...by when.
MH: At the next APA meeting, can we summarize what we've discussed today....
JB: I tend to be really detailed
with action lists.
... Things to do:
... 1) Getting us time on the upcoming APA agenda.
... 2) Get the facilitator-elect/designee to come up with four
or five bullets/talking points.
<MichaelC> s/1 pm/12 pm/
JB: 3) A few folks ought to look
at the last task force work statement version and pretend
you've never seen it before and compare it to the APA charter
and also the concerns received.
... On item 3, Judy, Jason, and Mark.
... 4) Propose at least three methods of work.
... This can be super simple, like capturing things from
workgroup discussion by such-and-such method.
... Spinning up some topics in the task force, selecting some
for longer discussions, and selecting from amongst five
different options to send to the group (e.g. a straw
person)
... In other words, clear workflow flavor with examples.
... 5) Draft two sample outcomes (a light one and a more
detailed one).
... Keep it simple at first.
... 6) Come up with a straw recruitment list. Just a sample to
give people an idea. (e.g. these five research labs, APA WG,
and other W3C groups)
... Just to give people a flavor of what we're thinking.
... But also include a few people for APA, HTML5/Web Platforms,
etc.
... They can discuss and then we can go from there.
<Judy> Judy thanks Joanie's good minuting!!!
<liam> scribe: liam
<scribe> scribenick: liam
<scribe> chair: JS
JS: This session is about the future of the HTML Accessibility task force
and the reelationship between APA and the Web Platform
Do we value this thursday check-in time, the TF meeting?
LW: Right now we have 2 main work items
first is draft proposal for transcript
e.g. transcribing video
There's also a spec for panel and panel set
for elements to be used e.g. for carousels, tabs, etc
probably will come under Web Platform, taking up HTML
transcriptions probably will go to timed media
JS: also we're still working on edits to what the HTML spec says about alt
LW: and that will result in bugs files against HTML, so Web Platform
Charles: I don't object to the
meetings on thursdays. As often as not it's a pain to have a
meeting. I'm not a big teleconference fan.
... More generally what does concern me is, if the WP group has
to have some a11y stuff in an over-there place that's als
osaying it's not in the places where it really needs to
happen!
I'd rather have the stuff that HTML Accessibility TF was doing being done in the Web Platform WG.
scribe: It's very important in that case that APA gets a feed of what's coming down the pipe in the Web platform.
LW has been nominated to keep APA informed in this regard.
E.g. I [Charles] am likely to take some a11y-related HTML bugs directly into HTML
You will want to know about that, I presume! "we did this and this, it's in".
How do we handle the transition?
Technically there's a Web Platform WG; what it does is still up for grabs. Right now you can't really edit the HTML spec.
We plan to change that so we can fix bugs... and then you can go to the Web Platform WG & do stuff.
LW: OF the 4 cochairs of WP, 2 of them are really invested in a11y, sends out a message.
We and the other co-chairs really want to being as much a11y expertise & knowledge into the WG as we can.
Cynthia: in Web Apps does the bulk of the work happen in git?
Charles: Yes, git.
... specs go into git, issues are tracked in github
tracker.
There's no requirement that everything be done that way; e.g. there's an editing tf with its own mailing list & meetings;
scribe: a web components group, we don't have formal substructures [so some use mailing list & some use github]
Charles: Web Components had 3 f2f
meetings this year so far.
... There are some unsolved ussues in Web Components; people
want to solve them but not yet got a way to do it; probably
will be an f2f topic. Dmitry Glaskov in particular,
they say, "here's what you have to read/prepare to be at this meeting"
so the browser people show up ready to engage.
Most Web Components meetings are in California.
Cynthia: we are obviously more distributed geographically.
Charles: if the editing tf has a f2f it's likely to be in Berlin.
<Zakim> JF, you wanted to repeat my concern about documentation and moving to new pltforms/tools
JF: Cynthia asked about docs; there's a problem at W3C, in helping people use github and use these newer systems.
Jason: In general I agree with LW that we've been saying for a long time that a11y needs to be taken into account throughout the development of new specifications
Ideally a11y expertise should be engaged as part of the group making the spec
<JF> slight correction to the minutes - there is a need for good documentation to aid the transition to these newer tools
scribe: I suppose the only issue I'd have there would be aboue formal participation requirements
LW: to take an example, James
Nurthen and I just talked with Johannes about editing rich
content in HTML, he was looking for a11y input
... so as a first step I agreed to have a conversation with
them and also to take this back to APA.
So that's one way we can keep you guys up to date.
Charles: John, need for documentation noted. Github is unintuitive.
We have some level of documentation about our workflow, the things we expect.
Participation requirements are fairly straightforward. You join in and participate. We expect to behave like you know how to be nice to people.
Not a lot of formal requirements
We haven't had a good standing rule for about 8 years.
No required telecon. We have a f2f at TPAC.
For a number of years we've hard a f2f around California in the early part of the year, and more recently moved to smaller & more focused f2f meetings.
There are a number of mailing lists. We don't like flame wars or people being rude to each other.
They're very big groups but seem to be mostly workable.
Cynthia: so, how do people wanna do?
Charles: given that description of a group that you (PF/APA) have to engage with, I'm interested to hear [response]
Cynthia: I know a lot of people don't like time-synchronous stuff.
Charles: I don't expect to have a regular Web Platforms call.
There's more willingness to have a phone call or several phone calls now than 5 years ago, to help us through a situation
and for other issues, github issues + f2f seem to be the dominant modes.
<LJWatson> +Q+
Jason: as to my personal
involvement I'm interested, issues relating to HTML and APIs
I'm interested in. I participate in APA.
... I want to engage in issues that would involve the WP WG
whenever I can make a contribution to the specific issue on a
specific spec.
Whether that involves becoming a participant in the WP WG would have to be decided, and also by my AC Rep, so I can't make a commitment about that,
scribe: but I've occasionally been involved in meeting with the task force because of specific issues.
<chaals> ack +
JS: I'm also one of those people that prefers talking to writing
I don't think any one modality covers all people, there's always things left out, the precision of writing things down certainly isn't there in a phone conversation.
On the other hand it's easier to pick up if people are upset on a phone call.
scribe: I'd like to have a mechanism available. How much are we needing a mechanism with ongoing work? We've needed it in the past, when we had a packed agenda.
There were as many as 3 or 4 subteams working too.
The MAUR is now [mostly] done.
The canvas 2d spec is done.
So I don't know if some of these new things would benefit from that kind of regular participation.
Clearly we'll need to communicate. I'm very happy that LJWatson is going to be participating directly in WP.
So depending on how much we need to talk to each other on a regular basis, there really wasn't much time in the Wednesday PF call to talk about HTML TF stuff.
Recently it's not been unusual for a Thursday call to end early.
So if we can schedule when we have specific issues going on, that might be fine.
I'm expecting we'll have a good working relation with HTML, as we've had in recent months, recent years, unlike at the start.
So i'm inclined to keep a mechanism open but don't know how much need there will be for it.
People in the TF but not in PF would be asked to join APA.
ljw: yes, that door will always be open.
I should also have mentioned new work, ideas for new specs will be incubated in the community group [WICG]
If there's enough interest they can bring it to a certain point of maturity & then complete an Intent to Migrate document.
In that document you also document accessibility impact.
So the expectation is that a11y is an intrinsic part of anything new.
Could the alt work be moved to PF/APA?
JS: The other day we decided that the APA calls would stay at 60 minutes but we'd allow ourselves to extend them.
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to suggest a way to bridge lack of shared experiences and understanding at the kick-off stage of new work areas.
Judy: Through some recent conversations I've become generally leaning towards support of phasing out the TF, but I wanted to list some concerns and also some suggestions
One is a concern just about the volume of APA work, and so the HTML WG itself was pretty reliable in creating a large volume of things that needed significant attention from a bunch of a11y experts
scribe: and APA doesn't just have to worry about Web Platform but also all other W3C work and cultures.
But LJWatson, if you coordinate well with janina_ it may work really well
scribe: So if you say, these are the topics, maybe you take 25% of an hour's APA call. We should be vigilant, since w're dropping an hour a week & merging 2 hours into one, that we don't start dropping things on the floor.
Going to more esoteric concerns about how people work together well, to get accessible technologies working requiers a significant presence from different stake-holder communities,
scribe: and a shared experience.
With the volume of stuff in the HTML work it's not doing it
just once but many times,
... and a11y folks need to adjust to different dynamics and
buzzwords of each area.
My guess is it'd be useful to have a joint kick-off meeting at the start of each new spec / work item.
scribe: So that'd be a case where it might be unfortunate to have dropped the TF. But if we remember to do it for each new area it might help.
JS: +1
One of the things I worry about - the climate of HTML and WP is great compared to what is was. A11y is sometimes on the edge & it's ideal to have a lot of different perceptions - what can we learn about the best way to bring people in and have it work well?
I like that the 2 cochairs in the room are committed ot having that work well.
It may be harder than expected for pepole from disability organziations to come to the table and contribute.
I'd love to know how that engagement & pulling in can happen.
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note the reason for the lull in work
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
Liam: You observed that there has
been less work taking place on the taskforce.
... That is in large part due to the rechartering.
... And might not reflect the amount of work
<liam> scribenick: liam
Charles: I strongly believe that people who have sat down together work better together than people who have never met.
As far as I'm concerned people with interest in various different areas with a11y, e.g.publishing, regional, are amongst the stakeholders we have to go and find.
I hope we get some reasonable number of people from different disability areas directly participating in work.
scribe: And yet I think it'll be important to maintain the connection back to APA. So we still want to make sure you're looking at what we're doing.
One problem with kick-off meetings for new work is that we get a reasonably large number of specs coming in, browsers start implementing, then after a year or 18 months they discover it doesn't work, throw it away.
scribe: It has happened repeatedly, e.g. file system access in Web Apps, others, had a proposal, done a pile of work, then said no.
WebSQL was another one.
People come to e.g. TPAC just to get to know each other.
I don't think this is going to be perfect - not underestimating the difficulty. A11Y is just one of the pieces.
One obvious bug of medium size, some of them, are a11y-related. Not controversial, but expecting to use them as one of the tools to draw people in.
<chaals> s/one obvious bug/Medium size bugs/
Jason: On the formalities of
this... When I became a partcipant in the HTML TF there was an
expectation of also becoming a participant in the HTML WG, but
that wasn't a burden; seems it'll be same with WP... but there
were valid reasons behind that expectation of being
... a participant in both groups, so a determination should be
made about this case, e.g if you were involved in work that
engages with HTML or any of the platform APIs of the WP WG in
relation to a11y, is there going to be a participation that
you'd become a WP participant as well?
And I think there were IP requirements.
I'd be willing to be in both groups & to commit time on an ad hoc basis to work on issues.
plh: Github - well, we are switching to github and are trying to switch as many WGs as possible to github.
We have more documents, the Web is getting larger, so I'm trying to scale with the resources I have.
scribe: I think it's important that we find ways to monitor the incubator group. E.g. there was a proposal about when an element comes into a viewport.
Having a f2f meeting is difficult, we need to find the right target ,get the right people round the room.
I don't think the WP WG had enough preparation for their first f2f, but it was their first!
Liam said earlier the was a lull because of transition; the WP WG also doesn't know what they want to do yet either.
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to (1) talk about leaving room for experimentation; to (2) suggest a threshold for needing a kick-off meeting; and to (3) suggest maybe some deliberate balancing
Judy: (1) when you're getting
people to work together well it can be extraordinarily helpful
to set & manage expectations
... So charles, what you were saying earlier about a failed
example, that's a normal part of development, and it'd be good
to tell some of the a11y experts up front that hey, this
sometimes happens
Some people will get very frustrated, and may be gong through contortions to get a11y features into something that goes away
So it might be useful to say upfront, this particular group is going to be doing a lot of experimentation.
Whatever you do at requierments layer will still be valuable
2. for a bunch of areas it may be the same people working together so you may not need a kick-off meeting.
3. I'm wondering when it comes to integrating a11y experts with very different levels of standards work experience
maybe we can liaise back from WP WG to APA
e.g. with check points to check with a broader circle of review
<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about IPR commitments
Charles: If you're in WP filinf a single bug, anyone in the world can do that. If you start suggesting significant changes, we'd like you to formally join the WG and make the IPR commitment.
That's easy on the W3C side, you might have to convince your management.
E.g. if you're suggesting substantive changes for a11y, join the WG or there's another way to give IPR comitments.
Re. balancing, I want a reasonably continuous flow of information to APA, so APA knows what we're doing. The
scribe: great hope is that WP is flooded with the best experts the world has to offer. But my hopes and dreams don't always turn out. So we'll see.
Any group that's been working together builds up its own culture and shorthands and it's more difficult to engage when you come to that group,
scribe: so there are always
friction points, culture clashes, cream puffs. We'll do our
best as chairs to minimize them,
... sort out how we get the work though and not spend time
fighting.
I have a strong preference for meetings that don't go over an hour.
The WP meetings I expect will continue to follow the pattern of we have an hour, then a break, then an hour, then a break.
Charles: for short term we'll run the calls for a little while longer at least. If there's a call for 2 people it's going to end.
[James leaves the room]
scribe: and if there's a community that needs a telecon regularly, that's what we'll do.
<JF> +1 to staying flexible
Judy: Sometimes it takes a while for pepole to set up a task force when it's needed quickly, so might want a provisional or informal or standing arrangement
LJWatson: that's like the subgroups
Judy: yes, also in HTML A11Y TF.
Janina: Adjourned.
We'll play it by ear.
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