HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference -- 01 Oct 2015

<trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015

<janina> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015

Agenda Edits & Additions

"we expect to get another month"

<chaals> CMN: we expect to have a one month extension to the HTML group, so we can worry about the future at TPAC…

<chaals> JB: expect APA to happen within that timeframe too…

<scribe> scribe: MarkS

JS: FYI, we published LCWD last fall. We received several good comments and handled most of them in the Spring.
... just now got around to responding to commenters
... hope to get Note published before TPAC
... who publishes is unknown.

CMN: anything controversial? perhaps we should start a Call for consensus next week.

JS: that is a good idea. I will follow through on that.

<ShaneM> +1 on a CfC

<chaals> ACTION: janina to start a CfC to publish MAUR as a note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Start a cfc to publish maur as a note [on Janina Sajka - due 2015-10-08].

MAUR Update - Janina

<chaals> [agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20151001003822.GL1737@opera.rednote.net ]

TPAC Planning

CMN: we asked people to be at TPAC. There is a slot for various group who may or may not exist
... who will be there and available second half of the week.

<LJWatson> Available on Friday.

<janina> I'll be there

MarkS is a maybe

<liam> [I'll be there all week]

<IanPouncey> I won't be there

<chaals> [I expect to have conflicts for TPAC - Web platform/AC/AB]

<Judy> I'll be there

<ShaneM> I will be there but web payments is meeting thursday friday so... I will be at that a lot

<plh> I'll be divided between rooms as usual

<LJWatson> Friday pending Web Platforms stuff.

JS: I will be chairing PF Thur and Fri

CMN: If you have not registered, you should do that right away

PLH: hotels are filling up!

Web Payments Followup

JS: looking for recruits for a User Req. doc for this.
... so far, me, JF, Shane volunteered to be editor.
... I have a commitment to strip the MAUR to everything related to Media to use as a base document for Web Payments.
... hope to do before TPAC

CMN: given that payments is not HTML, but another WG, should this be something between APA and WP?

JS: good idea
... most of us are going to be in APA

SM: I'm in WP as well

Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam

JS: Did not get a chance to bring this up in PF yesterday.
... will be asking WCAG to review language. Need a close review from expert reviewers. As many as we can put on the draft.
... then we will follow bugs against HTML spec, and hopefully get into HTML5.1 draft

<chaals> Alt doc draft

Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals

CMN: this is a question that came from ARIA stuff. Whether or not D&D works in ARIA or in HTML. Do we have a special ARIA version, or should ARIA deprecate and building it right into HTML
... up to people who have implementation support to say which they think is the best solution.

IP: I've had a very hard time to get it to work.
... lots and lots of JS. This is just HTML attempt

<liam> [D&D unsupported on touch devices]

BK: and its unsupported in touch as well, correct?

<Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say Jaws has lost support for ARIA drag/drop somewhere between v11 and v17.

RS: We have decided to deprecate what we have in ARIA 1.1. We would like to depend on whatever HTML can support and then add any missing pieces in ARIA.next

JS: about two years ago, we looked into this and there were serious discussions on this, around what it would take. Should probably have that again

LW: JAWS 11 used to support ARIA D&D, but somewhere along the way, support was lost. I have filed bugs. No idea when this happened.
... you can tell which elements could be grabbed, but issuing commands to grab it were not accessible.
... filed bugs with Freedom Scientific
... will share with you

<chaals> ACTION: chaals to explain the IME / cententeditable issue in email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Explain the ime / cententeditable issue in email [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-10-08].

<bkardell_> can everyone check that they a muted there's frequently a skipping echo making it a little hard to hear - or is that just for me?

CMN: people working on this are interested in something called ContentEditable = typing. That will include using IMEs, like what we use when you want to input non standard characters

<bkardell_> liam: seems to be helping to me

CMN: none of the people working on that had not Assistive Technology experience.
... looking for anyone with Chinese Japanese or Korean experience
... Javascript RTE component in a web page, like TInyMCE, CKEditor, etc.
... knowledge of how these work as well as AT experience

<chaals> ACTION: chaals to add contenteditable and IME issues to TPAC agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Add contenteditable and ime issues to tpac agenda [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-10-08].

JS: this should be something we should talk about at TPAC. there may be experts there. Lots of participation for Japanese, Chinese and Korean people

JB: There will be people from Korea and China there that are interested in working on this.

Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al

CMN: can you send an email? make introductions?

<plh> sorry

JB: because of progress on APA and ARIA, etc. we are having lots of confusion about scheduling

CMN: likely early in the week to talk about this.

JB: maybe you can get a separate email out to coordinate

BK: Leonie and I met up and tried to make a habit of getting editors together for a quick standup to keep this moving forward. Two actions items. 1 to write a easier to understand intro to the spec. trying to get that out there to get regular users involved.
... 2. I will sync up with Polymer devs. They are busy at the moment. They have some existing functionality that is lower level than what we are designing, but could be used to drive momentum.
... interesting because they have access to browser implementer.
... tricky to get people to use it because of the lack of shadow DOM that can be styled, etc.

<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to add scope creep to tabpanels

BK: we did this with input modality work as well (easy to understand description) and it was successful

CMN: this would have more success if it replaced details/summary

<chaals> a chemistry diagram in SVG

CMN: I was playing around with a chemistry diagram, and thinking about how you could navigate around and this is pretty much like an expandable tree. The tree itself is always visible. Then it occurred to me that the same metaphor, nested tab panels, applied here as well.
... would tab panels be able to handle this use case?
... having a native object, like a tab panel, would be much better than complex JS navigation.

BK: this came up in my organization as well. On mobile, when you have a hamburger navigation, you want something accordion like, but sometimes its nested. Is that a tree? can you next panel sets?
... there were some concerns about i18n, concerns that panel/title should be an element of its own.
... what worried me about that was that it would be unclear on to navigate this.
... tabs in your OS cannot contain form fields, but panelsets can, so theoretically this is possible.
... the element that can be expanded/collapsed is frequently a link on its own. There is a lot of overlap here.

CMN: to go back to SVG a11y TF, just the navigation, is there a sense of what the metaphor for navigation is.
... open question. won't get an answer today, or even this week. but something to consider.
... SVG sorta had this solved, but they are trying to come up with a better solution.

RS: looking at this diagram, are you looking to reveal content?

CMN: the diagram has 4 blocks, initial chemicals, then a transformation, then changes, then transformation, etc. Would like to enable people to start in initial ketone and then give them the ability to go to any step in the process wihtout going through all transformations.
... I'm thinking purely about focus navigation.

BK: so each phase in this would be a panel, with a title. then you could skip between the things, then drill down when you want.
... same navigation requirement as panels. not visually, just navigationally

<ShaneM> This feels like a hack to me.

SM: you can solve any problem by adding a layer of abstraciton, but pretending something is a tab when it isn't...

CMN: I'm talking about interaction behavior.

being able to apply that to trees, etc.

BK: the spec doesn't use the work TAB, it uses panel and panel set.
... in ARIA, they are TABS.

LW: the semantics are limiting.
... the only ARIA we can use TAB/TABLIST/TABPANEL
... and that is not the semantics we want in HTML
... we are focusing on PANEL at this point.

CMN: lets get a human readable explanation ;)

RS: lets discuss this at TPAC

CS: would love to talk about web components too

RS: probably schedule something Mon - Tues at TPAC. trying to schedule with Chaals

LW: nothing to report.

CMN: any other business?

TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track

CMN: all open actions are on Me and Cynthia, one on PLH which is now complete.

<chaals> close action-332

<trackbot> Closed action-332.

CMN: I did this.
... 329

<chaals> action-329?

<trackbot> action-329 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Take up "media descriptions" topic in the tf -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/329

CMN: transcript and describing a poster. No real solutions for these. Everything else has a mechanism.
... Was brought up in TF, everyone agreed

<chaals> close action-329

<trackbot> Closed action-329.

CMN: rest of mine are outstanding.

<chaals> action-324 on ljwatson

<chaals> close action-330

<trackbot> Closed action-330.

OBE

<chaals> action-226 to ljwatson

to bug steve

cyns and LW to meet next week

<chaals> action-318 due in 10 days

<trackbot> Set action-318 Work with léonie on describing the extensions requested to web driver, and the motivation… due date to 2015-10-11.

OBE

<chaals> close action-274

<trackbot> Closed action-274.

not going to do it

RS: can we meet with Web Apps/Web Components on Monday?

CMN: there is a wiki page for the meeting
... i will share link
... then you can scheduleyourself in

<chaals> Webapps tpac meeting page

CMN: web apps sets the agenda each morning.

RS: we need an hour

[adjourned]

- DRAFT -

HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

01 Oct 2015

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