See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Causus
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA#Potential_Agenda_items
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> this is the agenda:
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
<MichaelC> +MichaelC
<jamesn> scribe: jamesn
<mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
MK: suggest that people look at
the email and reply on the list rather than taking meeting
time
... will take until TPAC to get screen reader vendor
feedback
<clown> current master: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
MK: In terms of agenda time I feel it would be better to do this later
RS: appendcount and prependcount.... do we really need these?
MK: want to get feedback from screen reader vendors as to whether they can do without them
RS: I'm still not convinced that we really need them
ACTION-1361?
<trackbot> ACTION-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
ISSUE-740?
<trackbot> ISSUE-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use cell -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
MK- want to talk about in the context of ISSUE-633
ISSUE-633?
<trackbot> ISSUE-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
I think I have addressed this. If you look at the new gridcell text in the draft i just listed means issue-740 is overcome by events
MK: what this is saying is that if you "the cell elements of a grid have role gridcell"
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#gridcell
MK: and if you follow the link to
gridcell it says it can be focussable, editable.... i intended
that to be part of the very first paragraph to make it mroe
obvious to people.
... those are the things that are distinctly different about
grids from tables
... rowheader and columnheader raises another issue. Makes
mapping algorithm difficult. Becuase a colheader can either be
a widget or not a widget. It seems to me like we need a header
cell role which maps to a TH
... cells are not focusbale or selectable. THs are a form of a
cell
... if th maps to colheader the supported states and properties
include things that do not apply to a TH
... are we good with that
RS: I think we can do that
MK: the you could potentially have done the same thing for cell
RS: everything can get focus in HTML or SVG
MK: selection is a different thing'
RS: the net is that unless anyone
disagrees is that close 740 as overcome by events
... I think we could put text in the docuement to address that
in the context of a table colheader and rowheader are not
selectable
RESOLUTION: close issue-740 to be addressed by issue-633
ACTOON-1361?
<clown> action-1361
<trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
MK: push to next week
<clown> action-1513
<trackbot> action-1513 -- Michael Cooper to Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513
<clown> action-1719
<trackbot> action-1719 -- Michael Cooper to Draft aria 1.1 cr exit criteria -- due 2015-09-09 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1719
MC: exit criteria already on your
agenda
... requirements do not need to be discussed at TPAC
... exit criteria - blocking time to work on b4 tpac
RS: move requiremnet due date out
<clown> action-1653
<trackbot> action-1653 -- Ann Abbott to Find out what chinese equivalent to ctrl+a is, to help with internationalisation guidance in the ARIA APG 1.1 -- due 2015-06-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1653
??
<clown> action-1633
<trackbot> action-1633 -- Shane McCarron to Work with rich on updated process for creating new role value taxonomy extensions -- due 2015-05-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1633
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
RS: had a discusssion about extending for dpub stuff
SM: please close it - it is done
RS: dicsussions i had with SteveF - i posted a defn to the list
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
RS: in HTML5 there is a figure.
the issue we have is when you have a figcaption this really is
a description not a label for the figure
... but there are times when the label is embedded in the
description
... is some special role for figcaption needed to allow you to
do this
MK: could this be a label in the figcaption?
RS: Steve was asking do we need a
figcaption role
... when yu have a figure role it would also have a describedby
to point to the description
Stefan: what is the difference between figcaption and a role of figcaption
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
RS: we could mao that to a figcaption but it is really the description for the figure which precedes it
MK: we decided not to have cpation for table as we have aria-labelledby and aria-describedby
Stefan: would still have to
connect them using escibedby so defeats the purpose
... is there an exmaple?
RS: HTML?
Stefan: a code example which is causing the issue
RS: have figure followed by figcaption. trying to address the mapping under the surface
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
figure: A perceivable section of content which supports the main
document, and should be easily perceivable regardless of its
position in the layout. A figure might contain a graphical
document, an image, or other content such as code snippets or
example text. Authors SHOULD provide a reference to the figure
from the main text, but the figure need not be displayed at the
same location as the referencing element."
A figure MAY have an associate label or caption, or an
associated description.
Assistive technologies SHOULD enable users to quickly navigate
to figures. Mainstream user agents MAY enable users to quickly
navigate to figures.
We differentiate label and descriptions as one being short and the
other being long. Steve would like for us to have a figcaption role
but what I think we really need to do is state that Figures must have
both a visible label and a description. In HTML the description can
be implied. I would like to discuss this with the group and also see
whether Steve things that we should require an aria-labelledby on the
<figure> element or at least an aria-label. I can see where the
implied description could be adequate and we might just want to have
an aria-label on it.
We need to resolve this before this becomes a formal proposal.
RS: if we have figcaption do we assume it is always a caption?
FE: would a figcaption show up in the list of figures or something else
RS: they are using it for dual purpose
<richardschwerdtfeger> <figure>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <figcaption>The Stata Center</figcaption>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <img src="stata.jpg" alt="The Stata Center Building">
<richardschwerdtfeger> </figure>
RS: I would have thought you would want the label in the list of figures
<figure>
<img src="bubbles-work.jpeg"
alt="Bubbles, sitting in his office chair, works on his
latest project intently.">
<figcaption> Bubbles at work</figcaption>
</figure>
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
MK: I would have reversed the
text in that bubbles example
... what any AT does is up to them
... we don't dictate their UI
FE: if you make a table of contents you want it to be predictable
MK: we do use TOC in the spec - but we provide the information - they decide what to do about it
RS: in SVG drawings when you have a figure - you may not have a description. It would be down in the SVG itself
<mck> scribe: matt_King
<mck> RS: if we are gong to have figure role, we can not mandate they have a describedby except through authoring guidelines
<mck> Joseph: In SVG, do you have to title and desc?
FE: text can also be in there so could have aria-labelledby
<mck> Fred: there could be aria-labeledby and a title as well
FE: could also be a title for the graph inside the SVG so could be an aria-labelled by in the SVG
<mck> Joseph: if using straight SVG and no ARIA, what do you use?
MK: if using straight SVG then use title
<mck> RS: then use title in svg; it will create label.
FE: if you loaded SVG as a document it will do that
<mck> RS: it is like the name calculation for html
clown: alt is specific to the image element
rs: figcaption - looking at it. I don't know if it affects the positioning. Usually descriptions would be underneath it
MK: seems like making a decision
based on a sample size of 1
... :)
RS: I don't know if it goes at
the beginning. All have seen figures with really big
descriptions after them
... the most sommon thing is that figcaptions are
descriptions
FE: in a regular document - with a list of figures what do you see...
<the label>
MK: thinking dpub - see a list of
figures, usally figure 1 etc.... about a sentence long. Often
those captions are relatively long - and the figures do not
have a concise label
... in a list of figures would see the labels and the
description
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#h-figure-and-figcaption-elements
MK: would rather add a caption
role and in the context of figure is a figcaption and in table
it is a table caption
... we could point at the <P> and use aria-describedby
and it would have the effetc but that element doesn't get the
caption role
clown: it remains a paragraph
inside the table
... not talking about real html table markup
mk: an opportunity to make the table picture more robust
stefan: what is the benefit to a cpation role?
rs: do we want a cpation role and do we want a label role... don't want to open up the label can of worms as people will ask why we dont have it elsewhere
stefan: say you have a figure and link using aria-labelledby wouldn't it be an AT issue to connect the 2
rs: if you put a label inside a figure then the text would appear on the screen
MK: if a figure role on the div
and have aria-describedby pointing to a paragraph
... is there no text element in scg
... why not just add a text element and point to it using
aria-describedby
RS: the text appears within the figure
stefan: if the only issue is visibility can just add a hidden attribute to it
rs: svg put it in the container can have the text within the svg itself
<clown> <div><h4 id='figcaption">Figure caption text here</h4><svg> … <somesvgelement aria-labelledby="figcaption">…</svg></div>
fe: they are not going to put the description inside the svg
MK: we came up with a table
sollution which didn't need a cpation role
... seems a perfect parallel
... if the issue is mapping it doesn't seem like we need it
RS: Steve asked that we have a
separate role for figcaptions
... reasoning he gave is that it acts as a label and a
decription
MK: I think a figure that has
aria-describedby pointing to something has a description,
shouldn't require a label - if it has both then a UA can ecide
which to use for whatever purpose it has
... seems like label and description should be good for
figures
... it is up to them if they have labels or descriptions or
both
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
RS: will tell Steve we don't want a seperate caption - if you have it use describedby
<jnurthen> issue-740?
<trackbot> issue-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use cell -- closed
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
<jnurthen> action-1672?
<trackbot> action-1672 -- Michael Cooper to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
<jnurthen> MC: I will put on an editors agenda to work out how it should work
<richardschwerdtfeger> The group agreed that these should be deprecated. We just need wording that these attributes are deprecated and that alternative will be sought in later version of ARIA that takes into account HTML drag and drop functionality.
<jnurthen> issue-704?
<trackbot> issue-704 -- Should there be an ARIA method to indicate the primary button? -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/704
<MichielBijl> +1
<jnurthen> RS: coga people will want this
<clown> +1
<MichielBijl> +2
<jnurthen> rs: going to have an aria function?
<jnurthen> rs: a help button - need to know what the purpose of a button is
<jnurthen> aria-default="true/false"
<MichielBijl> input type=button/submit
<MichielBijl> role=button?
<clown> but not role=button aria-pressed
<MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
Matt: if there is more than one
default button, there is no benefit to coga
... it should be a relationship
clown: what if you're in a modal and that has a default button
Matt: then you're in a different window
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