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16:31:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:31:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:31:31 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:31:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:31:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:31:32 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015
16:31:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Causus
16:33:32 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:33:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:34:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA#Potential_Agenda_items
16:35:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
16:35:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> this is the agenda:
16:35:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
16:36:17 <fesch> present+ fesch
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16:41:02 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
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16:44:26 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:44:31 <MichaelC> +MichaelC
16:44:36 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
16:44:55 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:44:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:44:58 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
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16:52:41 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
16:53:09 <jamesn> agenda?
16:54:17 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
16:54:39 <jamesn> TOPIC: Grid role?
16:54:57 <jamesn> MK: suggest that people look at the email and reply on the list rather than taking meeting time
16:55:11 <jamesn> MK: will take until TPAC to get screen reader vendor feedback
16:55:11 <clown> current master:  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
16:55:36 <jamesn> MK: In terms of agenda time I feel it would be better to do this later
16:55:51 <jamesn> RS: appendcount and prependcount.... do we really need these?
16:56:22 <jamesn> MK: want to get feedback from screen reader vendors as to whether they can do without them
16:56:34 <jamesn> RS: I'm still not convinced that we really need them
16:56:41 <jamesn> TOPIC: ACTION-1361
16:56:45 <jamesn> ACTION-1361?
16:56:45 <trackbot> ACTION-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
16:56:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
16:57:12 <jamesn> ISSUE-740?
16:57:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use cell -- open
16:57:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
16:57:31 <jamesn> MK- want to talk about in the context of ISSUE-633
16:57:33 <jamesn> ISSUE-633?
16:57:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
16:57:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
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16:58:20 <jamesn> I think I have addressed this. If you look at the new gridcell text in the draft i just listed means issue-740 is overcome by events
17:00:29 <jamesn> MK: what this is saying is that if you "the cell elements of a grid have role gridcell"
17:00:36 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#gridcell
17:01:17 <jamesn> MK: and if you follow the link to gridcell it says it can be focussable, editable.... i intended that to be part of the very first paragraph to make it mroe obvious to people.
17:01:37 <jamesn> MK: those are the things that are distinctly different about grids from tables
17:02:29 <jamesn> MK: rowheader and columnheader raises another issue. Makes mapping algorithm difficult. Becuase a colheader can either be a widget or not a widget. It seems to me like we need a header cell role which maps to a TH
17:02:46 <jamesn> MK: cells are not focusbale or selectable. THs are a form of a cell
17:03:14 <jamesn> MK: if th maps to colheader the supported states and properties include things that do not apply to a TH
17:03:22 <jamesn> MK: are we good with that
17:03:32 <jamesn> RS: I think we can do that
17:03:47 <jamesn> MK: the you could potentially have done the same thing for cell
17:04:01 <jamesn> RS: everything can get focus in HTML or SVG
17:04:08 <jamesn> MK: selection is a different thing'
17:04:36 <jamesn> RS: the net is that unless anyone disagrees is that close 740 as overcome by events
17:05:51 <jamesn> RS: I think we could put text in the docuement to address that in the context of a table colheader and rowheader are not selectable
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17:09:54 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: close issue-740 to be addressed by issue-633
17:10:59 <jamesn> ACTOON-1361?
17:11:02 <clown> action-1361
17:11:02 <trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
17:11:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
17:11:31 <jamesn> MK: push to next week
17:11:43 <jamesn> TOPIC: ARIA 1.1 Action draft and exit criteria
17:12:00 <clown> action-1513
17:12:01 <trackbot> action-1513 -- Michael Cooper to Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
17:12:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513
17:12:06 <clown> action-1719
17:12:06 <trackbot> action-1719 -- Michael Cooper to Draft aria 1.1 cr exit criteria -- due 2015-09-09 -- OPEN
17:12:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1719
17:12:30 <jamesn> MC: exit criteria already on your agenda
17:12:46 <jamesn> MC: requirements do not need to be discussed at TPAC
17:13:01 <jamesn> MC: exit criteria - blocking time to work on b4 tpac
17:13:15 <jamesn> RS: move requiremnet due date out
17:14:41 <jamesn> TOPIC: new figure role
17:15:01 <clown> action-1653
17:15:01 <trackbot> action-1653 -- Ann Abbott to Find out what chinese equivalent to ctrl+a is, to help with internationalisation guidance in the ARIA APG 1.1 -- due 2015-06-22 -- OPEN
17:15:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1653
17:15:08 <jamesn> ??
17:15:15 <clown> action-1633
17:15:15 <trackbot> action-1633 -- Shane McCarron to Work with rich on updated process for creating new role value taxonomy extensions -- due 2015-05-14 -- OPEN
17:15:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1633
17:15:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
17:15:53 <jamesn> RS: had a discusssion about extending for dpub stuff
17:16:01 <jamesn> SM: please close it - it is done
17:16:20 <jamesn> TOPIC: new figure role
17:16:43 <jamesn> RS: dicsussions i had with SteveF - i posted a defn to the list
17:16:57 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
17:17:19 <jamesn> RS: in HTML5 there is a figure. the issue we have is when you have a figcaption this really is a description not a label for the figure
17:17:32 <jamesn> RS: but there are times when the label is embedded in the description
17:17:51 <jamesn> RS: is some special role for figcaption needed to allow you to do this
17:18:27 <jamesn> MK: could this be a label in the figcaption?
17:18:44 <jamesn> RS:Steve was asking do we need a figcaption role
17:19:01 <jamesn> RS: when yu have a figure role it would also have a describedby to point to the description
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17:19:55 <jamesn> Stefan: what is the difference between figcaption and a role of figcaption
17:20:01 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
17:20:22 <jamesn> RS: we could mao that to a figcaption but it is really the description for the figure which precedes it
17:20:47 <jamesn> MK: we decided not to have cpation for table as we have aria-labelledby and aria-describedby
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17:21:08 <jamesn> Stefan: would still have to connect them using escibedby so defeats the purpose
17:21:18 <jamesn> Stefan: is there an exmaple?
17:21:26 <jamesn> RS: HTML?
17:21:35 <jamesn> Stefan: a code example which is causing the issue
17:21:54 <jamesn> RS: have figure followed by figcaption. trying to address the mapping under the surface
17:22:10 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
17:22:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
17:23:21 <jamesn> figure: A perceivable section of content which supports the main
17:23:22 <jamesn>             document, and should be easily perceivable regardless of its
17:23:22 <jamesn>             position in the layout. A figure might contain a graphical
17:23:22 <jamesn>             document, an image, or other content such as code snippets or
17:23:23 <jamesn>             example text. Authors SHOULD  provide a reference to the figure
17:23:23 <jamesn>             from the main text, but the figure need not be displayed at the
17:23:24 <jamesn>             same location as the referencing element."
17:23:26 <jamesn>             A figure MAY have an associate label or caption, or an
17:23:28 <jamesn>             associated description.
17:23:30 <jamesn>             Assistive technologies SHOULD enable users to quickly navigate
17:23:34 <jamesn>             to figures. Mainstream user agents MAY enable users to quickly
17:23:36 <jamesn>             navigate to figures.
17:24:58 <jamesn> We differentiate label and descriptions as one being short and the
17:24:58 <jamesn>       other being long. Steve would like for us to have a figcaption role
17:24:58 <jamesn>       but what I think we really need to do is state that Figures must have
17:24:58 <jamesn>       both a visible label and a description. In HTML the description can
17:25:00 <jamesn>       be implied. I would like to discuss this with the group and also see
17:25:00 <jamesn>       whether Steve things that we should require an aria-labelledby on the
17:25:00 <jamesn>       <figure> element or at least an aria-label. I can see where the
17:25:04 <jamesn>       implied description could be adequate and we might just want to have
17:25:06 <jamesn>       an aria-label on it.
17:25:08 <jamesn>       We need to resolve this before this becomes a formal proposal.
17:25:21 <jamesn> RS: if we have figcaption do we assume it is always a caption?
17:25:40 <jamesn> FE: would a figcaption show up in the list of figures or something else
17:25:53 <jamesn> RS: they are using it for dual purpose
17:26:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> <figure>
17:26:11 <richardschwerdtfeger>   <figcaption>The Stata Center</figcaption>
17:26:12 <richardschwerdtfeger>   <img src="stata.jpg" alt="The Stata Center Building">
17:26:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> </figure>
17:26:13 <jamesn> RS: I would have thought you would want the label in the list of figures
17:27:26 <jamesn> <figure>
17:27:26 <jamesn>  <img src="bubbles-work.jpeg"
17:27:26 <jamesn>       alt="Bubbles, sitting in his office chair, works on his
17:27:26 <jamesn>            latest project intently.">
17:27:27 <jamesn>  <figcaption>Bubbles at work</figcaption>
17:27:27 <jamesn> </figure>
17:28:39 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
17:29:06 <jamesn> MK: I would have reversed the text in that bubbles example
17:29:37 <jamesn> MK: what any AT does is up to them
17:29:51 <jamesn> MK: we don't dictate their UI
17:30:11 <jamesn> FE: if you make a table of contents you want it to be predictable
17:30:34 <jamesn> MK: we do use TOC in the spec - but we provide the information - they decide what to do about it
17:31:00 <jamesn> RS: in SVG drawings when you have a figure - you may not have a description. It would be down in the SVG itself
17:31:32 <mck> scribe: matt_King
17:32:03 <mck> RS: if we are gong to have figure role, we can not mandate they have a describedby except through authoring guidelines
17:32:31 <mck> Joseph: In SVG, do you have to title and desc?
17:32:42 <jamesn> FE: text can also be in there so could have aria-labelledby
17:32:51 <mck> Fred:  there could be aria-labeledby and a title as well
17:33:06 <jamesn> FE: could also be a title for the graph inside the SVG so could be an aria-labelled by in the SVG
17:33:14 <mck> Joseph: if using straight SVG and no ARIA, what do you use?
17:33:34 <jamesn> MK: if using straight SVG then use title
17:33:37 <mck> RS: then use title in svg; it will create label.
17:34:16 <jamesn> FE: if you loaded SVG as a document it will do that
17:34:28 <mck> RS: it is like the name calculation for html
17:34:31 <jamesn> clown: alt is specific to the image element
17:35:22 <jamesn> rs: figcaption - looking at it. I don't know if it affects the positioning. Usually descriptions would be underneath it
17:35:39 <jamesn> MK: seems like making a decision based on a sample size of 1
17:35:43 <jamesn> MK: :)
17:36:13 <jamesn> RS: I don't know if it goes at the beginning. All have seen figures with really big descriptions after them
17:36:39 <jamesn> RS: the most sommon thing is that figcaptions are descriptions
17:36:59 <jamesn> FE: in a regular document - with a list of figures what do you see...
17:37:02 <jamesn> <the label>
17:37:48 <jamesn> MK: thinking dpub - see a list of figures, usally figure 1 etc.... about a sentence long. Often those captions are relatively long - and the figures do not have a concise label
17:38:03 <jamesn> MK: in a list of figures would see the labels and the description
17:39:02 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#h-figure-and-figcaption-elements
17:39:47 <jamesn> MK: would rather add a caption role and in the context of figure is a figcaption and in table it is a table caption
17:40:20 <jamesn> MK: we could point at the <P> and use aria-describedby and it would have the effetc but that element doesn't get the caption role
17:40:32 <jamesn> clown: it remains a paragraph inside the table
17:40:47 <jamesn> clown: not talking about real html table markup
17:41:02 <jamesn> mk: an opportunity to make the table picture more robust
17:41:35 <jamesn> stefan: what is the benefit to a cpation role?
17:42:57 <jamesn> rs: do we want a cpation role and do we want a label role... don't want to open up the label can of worms as people will ask why we dont have it elsewhere
17:43:20 <jamesn> stefan: say you have a figure and link using aria-labelledby wouldn't it be an AT issue to connect the 2
17:43:45 <jamesn> rs: if you put a label inside a figure then the text would appear on the screen
17:44:04 <jamesn> MK: if a figure role on the div and have aria-describedby pointing to a paragraph
17:44:24 <jamesn> MK: is there no text element in scg
17:44:41 <jamesn> MK: why not just add a text element and point to it using aria-describedby
17:44:56 <jamesn> RS: the text appears within the figure
17:46:26 <jamesn> stefan: if the only issue is visibility can just add a hidden attribute to it
17:46:48 <jamesn> rs: svg put it in the container can have the text within the svg itself
17:47:02 <clown> <div><h4 id='figcaption">Figure caption text here</h4><svg> … <somesvgelement aria-labelledby="figcaption">…</svg></div>
17:47:09 <jamesn> fe: they are not going to put the description inside the svg
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17:48:28 <jamesn> MK: we came up with a table sollution which didn't need a cpation role
17:48:36 <jamesn> MK: seems a perfect parallel
17:48:49 <jamesn> MK: if the issue is mapping it doesn't seem like we need it
17:49:03 <jamesn> RS: Steve asked that we have a separate role for figcaptions
17:49:21 <jamesn> RS: reasoning he gave is that it acts as a label and a decription
17:50:12 <jamesn> MK: I think a figure that has aria-describedby pointing to something has a description, shouldn't require a label - if it has both then a UA can ecide which to use for whatever purpose it has
17:50:29 <jamesn> MK: seems like label and description should be good for figures
17:50:49 <jamesn> MK: it is up to them if they have labels or descriptions or both
17:52:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
17:52:22 <jamesn> RS: will tell Steve we don't want a seperate caption - if you have it use describedby
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17:55:03 <jnurthen> issue-740?
17:55:03 <trackbot> issue-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use cell -- closed
17:55:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
17:55:12 <jnurthen> action-1672?
17:55:12 <trackbot> action-1672 -- Michael Cooper to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
17:55:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
17:55:39 <jnurthen> MC: I will put on an editors agenda to work out how it should work
17:58:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> The group agreed that these should be deprecated. We just need wording that these attributes are deprecated and that alternative will be sought in later version of ARIA that takes into account HTML drag and drop functionality.
17:58:38 <jnurthen> issue-704?
17:58:38 <trackbot> issue-704 -- Should there be an ARIA method to indicate the primary button? -- open
17:58:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/704
17:59:31 <MichielBijl> +1
17:59:37 <jnurthen> RS: coga people will want this
17:59:41 <clown> +1
17:59:48 <MichielBijl> +2
18:00:08 <jnurthen> rs: going to have an aria fucntion?
18:00:23 <MichielBijl> s/fucntion/function
18:00:30 <jnurthen> rs: a help button - need to know what the purpose of a button is
18:01:25 <jnurthen> aria-default="true/false"
18:02:00 <MichielBijl> input type=button/submit
18:02:04 <MichielBijl> role=button?
18:02:52 <clown> but not role=button aria-pressed
18:03:27 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
18:04:24 <MichielBijl> Matt: if there is more than one default button, there is no benefit to coga
18:04:38 <MichielBijl> Matt: it should be a relationship
18:05:18 <MichielBijl> clown: what if you're in a modal and that has a default button
18:05:57 <MichielBijl> Matt: then you're in a different window
18:08:10 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:08:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:08:21 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:08:30 <MichielBijl> present+ Matt_King
18:08:48 <MichielBijl> present+ Francy
18:09:13 <MichielBijl> present+ Michael_Cooper
18:09:59 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:09:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:10:48 <MichielBijl> scribeOptions: -final
18:10:57 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:10:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
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