See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 10 September 2015
<Kim> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
<scribe> scribe: Jan
KP: Anything?
Kathy: Have people been working
on techs?
... No?
... When will we have something we can show?
... Really important to be working on techs as well as success
criteria
... People are really anxious to get some info
Detlev: Do we have an overview to remind us?
Kathy: Wiki page with current status
<Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
<Kim> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
Kathy: Focussing on "Proposed Mobile Techniques"
Detlev: Have ready for review been reviewed?
Kathy: Yes in previous meetings...there were comments... we need to look up in minutes
Alan: I've been working on 007...I need to add to page?
Kathy: Yes
... Let me know if you have questions
<Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
Kathy: Continuing to discuss
touch accessibility
... Started talking about challenges
... David put in some of the discussion
... Some of this is more usability
... So....what can we actually require under an SC
... Our goal is to continue developing this out as an
extension... think about this as an extension for mobile
... Given last week's discussion...what can we require.
DM: I don't think we'll be able
to say: All functionality available via touch.
... I think we can say: Anything that is touch functional can
be accessed with touch with assistive tech turned on
<Kim> Jan: when you say assistive technology, thinking voiceover, but there are others. Isn't it up to the OS developers not to interfere. One finger left swipe, is it up to them to support that pass through?
DM: Well there is default touch
gestures...then there are custom things...may require separate
techs
... We have to get more granular.
... I have some app developer contacts
... There are a bunch of default gestures that are intercepted
by VO...
... Swipe own one finger.... replaced by three finger swipe
down
... Must make sure replaced gestures are not broken
... Custom gestures are more complicated... pass through
gestures on some platforms.... but to be honest its above my
pay grade.
Detlev: Whats pass through?
DM: You make one gesture that
puts AT in mode that passes the next command directly to the
app
... We need to get everyone together to figure this out
Alan: 007 discusses this...but because the devices are touch specific not sure why we need this
DM: You are saying almost what
I'm saying
... What we do need to ensure is that all the touch stuff that
works without AT then meets with AT
kathy: We're focussing on VO, etc. but what about all users... voice users.
DM: Just to be clear, I'm saying
that IF you use touch, then it has to work with AT on.
... I think you're saying all things need to be touch
accesible...
<jeanne> Custom touch and gestures must also work with assistive technology.
Kathy: No, I'm just saying you and Alan have different points
DM: If we can get the concept
together....
... I know Gregg is concerned about new SCs...
... I think we have a hole in WCAG
<jeanne> UAAG use case: User agents and operating systems must provide a mechanism to allow assistive technology touch users to access custom gestures.
<Kim> Jan: the whole was the size of targets – there are people using head mouse, becomes more of an issue on a small screen
<jeanne> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
DM: Accessibility support... has to work with at least one combination...
Kathy: JRs comment is valid, WCAG
SCs don't mention assistive tech directly
... UAAG also comes into this
DM: I'm always thinking about
devs
... GV said basically the same as JR
... I proposed a rewrite.... 2.5.4 Touch: For pages and
applications that support touch, all functionality of the
content is operable through touch gestures with and without
system assistive technology activated.
... JR is right that WCAG doesn't usually word things this
way...BUT we do require it work with a stack..and most natural
stack to use is the builtin AT
JR: We seem to have bitten off a big peice...is there something smaller we can nail down
Kathy: What about touch target size?
JR: And I think it could be an SC
DM: I want to touch back on GL wording
<jeanne> +1 for Guideline language
DM: Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch functionality (Understanding)
JR: I'd be OK with that if it included Pointer
Detlev: I originally said:
Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: All functionality available via
touch.
... Think about web app that says to do this function, press
F12...may not work on mobile.
... Couldn't you say that everything should be operable by
touch or virtual keyboard.
JR: That would be broken for all users, not just those with disabilities
DM: Usability, not accessibility.
Detlev: OK with modified form
DM: Touch and pointer
Kathy: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality.
Kathy: Proposes "Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document
Alan: Is pointer too definitive
DM: HTML extension "Pointer options"
Alan: OK
... Voice?
DM: Can move pointer with voice
Proposed Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document
<David> http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/
Kim: Yes, you can move pointer with voice, but not very efficient.
<David> mousegrid
DM: Voice will mostly go after
the keyboard
... We already have keyboard accessibility...its not going
anywhere
kathy: Maybe there will be
another guideline re: Speech
... to make sure that's covered
Kim: Other thing...
... We talked about not anticipating VO..what are we
missing?
Kathy: Lets talk after
Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document
Kim: In all of this, what's next? Force touch?
JR: Think we should discuss, this is a great place for it
Alan: Wearables, rotating
dials?
... Gear S2...rotate face of watch...
Kim: Styluses as well
Alan: I use one on Galaxy Note 4
<David> good now detlev
Kim: Speech is being used in different ways
DM: re: Force Touch: Some people can't tell light vs. Hard
JR: AssistiveTouch remaps things
Kim: What about voice?
JR: I feel like there is an OS level "SpeechOver" feature coming
DM: There are probably API level things for Force Touch\
Kim: Any time new input modalities...
Alan: Comes back to HCI
... Typing, touching, mousing, shaking, etc.
... Also, duration of touch
... Galaxy already has duration of touch
<Kim> Jan: check box, you the author should not care whether that's operated by keyboard, mouse
DM: Well I'm going to add this to the bucket
Kathy: Yeah other things to think about
Alan: That's good
Kathy: Anything else?
Kim: No - please work on technique assignments
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Jan Inferring ScribeNick: Jan Present: Alan David Detlev Jan jeanne Kathy Kim Marc Regrets: Henny Found Date: 10 Sep 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]