See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 06 August 2015
<MichaelC> meeting: ARIA
<MichaelC> scribe: jongund
<scribe> scribe: jongund
TOPIC aria-describedat
JS: Some guests will be coming next week
<tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0042.html
JS: They will be providing some
examples before the next meeting
... Some publishers will be joining to describe their
requirements
... There are some objections, but we will be following up
after the meeting to dot all the i's and cross the t's
... Educational laws are requiring accessible books
MC: After the august 15th meeting
we need to talk about testing
... We need to get to CR within the next few months
... We want to have testing well on its way before going to CR,
to make sure there are no suprises
... We plan to continue to use the test harness from ARIA 1.0,
need to talk to system admin to get it setup
... We need to prepare test cases and test files for ARIA
1.1
... Rich wants to make this a top priority after
aria-describedat
... Anything else on testing?
MC: The URL is in the agenda
<MichaelC> TPAC 2015
<MichaelC> Draft ARIA TPAC planning
MC: The ARIA working group is
meeting the first part of the meeting (monday and
tuesday)
... If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under
PF
If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under PF for just monday and tuesday
MC: DIgital publishing might be a topic
JS: HTML5 will be Thursday and Firday
MC: updates the wiki: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
... Might be some overlapping meeting conflicts with DPUB
Tzviya: DPUB meeting comment
JS: Graphics SVG
MC: The SVG working group has cancelled their meeting at TPAC
JS: Probably testing
MC: Two topics: agenda items and meeting with other working groups
JS: I think we have done the working groups
MC: Digital publishing web
apps
... The TAG is meeting on mondy and tuesday, we can bring
grievances to them
JS: SOme of the WAPPS
issues
... The coordinating is getting some time, but we also need
agenda topics
MC: Deliverables plan for the upcoming year, the current gant chart is being developed
Tzviya: DPUB has not schedules time with CSS
MC: I updated wiki pages
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
MC: Register for hotels as soon as possible and get your flights
Tzviya: There maybe better hotel rates than the conference rate
MC: Someone was looking for stuff
to do at TPAC, some options were sent to team, I will try to
make public
... We need to start looking harder for rich
JS: I will try to contact
RS: TPAC FTF
MC: We have covered that and put some items in the agenda
RS: CSS going to be there?
JS: Thursday and Firday
RS: We need to talk to CSS
JS: Michael can we put that on the wiki page
MC: We just have web apps and digital publishing
RS: Do we know who will attend
Tzviya: Alan will be there
RS: I did not sign up to meet
with CSS
... Do I need to resign up for these working groups
JS: Yes indeed, this is not
optimal
... You are covered as chiar and facilitator, a very good
thing
... Tzviya is also included
RS: Who is coming from PF
Jemma: no
JS: Yes
JRG: no
MC: Yes
RS: We need dominic and someone
from apple
... I encourage people to come, exposing a API to
applications
... To get where we need to go, there will need to be an API to
interoperate with AT, it could also support alt input
devices
RS: Apparently alot of use cses
where there are visual icons on the screen, people want people
to know they are an icon button role
... A visual symbol versus a text button or other symbols on
the screen
... The symbols are often standardized, they are very common in
SVG drawing
JG: What would you tell an author
RS: I am not convinced
JG: We already have alot of roles in ARIA what is would you tell authors
RS: I am happy to take that back to the group, I wil take it back to the group
MB: What are the ...
RS: Does anyone object to closing this, having a role of label with an image
Joanie: What will an assistive
technology do with this
... We have a role description property that could describe
this
... If an AT has to do something different use a role, if it is
more descriptive use aria-roledescription
RS: Cogntive will have something
related to tasks or functions, like a 'Help" buttons, and this
would be standardized across applications
... I don't see it for this example
RESOLUTION: We do not believe there is significant difference ....
JS: No meaningful information to the user
RS: Typing in a proposed resolution
JS: At both ends of the chain we
do not see a benefit
... RS drafting a response ...
<richardschwerdtfeger> proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional information to the user when conveyed through accessibility APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y Task force requires more detail on the role they can use the new roledescription attribute which would require translation
<janina> +1
<Jjemma> +1
<MichielBijl> +1
+1
<joanie> +1
RESOLUTION:
proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional
information to the user when conveyed through accessibility
APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button
would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we
recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y
Task force requires more detail on the role they can use the
new roledescription...
... attribute which would require translation
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: close action 1666
Issue 694 aria-busy description does not limit use to live regions but characteristics table and UAIG do limit its use
• https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/694
RS: ... reading issue ...
... It sounds like matt would like to simplify the
definition
BG: A lot of people do not understand what it is suppose to do
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
BG: Signals that the live region is complete and start speaking stuff
RS: You can have sub trees as well
BG: the confusion is AT vendors are considering it hidden
RS: Freedom Scientific had a
discussion about that a few weeks ago
... do we want to change the text to live region is still being
updated
BG: That sounds good
RS: will we lose something?
... we could start out with that, we could add all the elements
of the sub tree
MB: There is valuable info in the current description, multi-part loading, fails to load is also valuable
RS: OK
... Do you want to change the first sentence?
MB: Could indicates the live region is still being updated
RS: DO we want to say the live region is still being updated ...
MB: Yeah
... The default is false does not make sense
RS: Yes it does ...
... That basically says you can dissect the tree
MB: You set aria-busy=false when the last part is loaded
RS: There is no author must
... Change the first sentence to say....
<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: change the first sentence to say: “"Indicates whether a live region is still being updated”
MB: We could lose the the part
after ....
... BG said an entire document is not marked up as false
RS: It can be any part of a web page, it does not have to be a widget
JG: Some people want to use this to create their own user experience
RS: There is a company does this for the login
MB: Maybe I am thrown off by the example ... intialized and complete, page thew me off
RS: Change this to element
... Do we need this change?
Joanie: I have opinions when it effect orca or questionable, this is neither to me
JG: SOme people add aria-live regions to menus because they don't understand ARIA
<richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
<richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."
<richardschwerdtfeger> The above description is written to apply to any busy element. Yet, the true value definition is:
<richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
<richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."
RS: Is it good enough?
MB: It is better than before
<joanie> widget being updated may be problematic as is
MB: We need to wait for her to call back in
GB: I do not use aria-busy, it does not seem to make a difference
RS: That maybe the AT, we don't want to code to the AT
GB: Users only can interact with what's there
RS: What if there are network traffic problems
GB: SOme people put up please wait
RS: i don't see that used in
practice, aria-busy is a global attribute
... If you are waiting for a form to load can put it on the
form
<MichielBijl> progressbars can also use aria-busy
GB: The UA explains the association between aria-busy and aria-live in the implementation guide, so there is some confusion to me....
RS: I am looking at perceivable regions, what does it say about ...
GB: It doesn't seem to change any behavior of AT
RS: In the glossary ....
GB: I can send the link later
RS: There is a section on the
definition of a live region in the glossary, reads
definition...
... The use cases included wdigets
... You should not make a selection until it is all there
GB: If it is unclear to me, it is probably a problem for other people
RS: If you can say a live region or a widget is still being updated is that enough
Joanie: Can I just jump back in
<richardschwerdtfeger> Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
<richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.
Joanie: All the discussion makes sense, my concern is the word "updated", anything can be happening, we need like populated
RS: I like the word populated better
MB: me too
<joanie> proposal: Indicates that a live region is being updated or a widget being populated.
RS: the AT can covey the information to the user
GB: I like populated better
RS: I want to make sure it is clear
Joanie: I have a concern about
"multiple parts of the same element" ...
... On the same element
RS: James made the suggestion, if the widget is not fully built ....
Joanie: What if the element is a parent element, with two child elements that are populating, set on parent element
RS: When a widget is missing required owned elements
Joanie: What if it is a form, if the author knows ..... set to true is when the first list box is starting to be loaded and false when the last listbox completes loading
MB: aria-busy should be on the form
Joanie: Sometimes it is not required elements
RS: We need to look at this from an authoring perspective
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Change the first 2 paragraphs of aria-busy to read as follows: “Indicates that a live region or widget is being populated.
<richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.”
Joanie: I thought we were going to let the APG work with this
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Joanie to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1699 - Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].
RS: We will ask them to review
and suggest changes if they want any
... It is better than what we had
<richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1799?
<trackbot> Sorry, but Action-1799 does not exist.
<joanie> action-1699
<trackbot> action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699
<richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1699?
<trackbot> Action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699
<MichielBijl> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/716
RS: ... reading the issue
...
... Is not aria-current a boolean
<MichielBijl> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-current
Joanie: It started out simple, not there are 5 or 6 different types
GB: It is suppose to support true
MB: ... date, time, true, false...
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current
RS: It is currently tokens
... We want to make this translatable, unless we call it user
defined
MB: Do we have examples of custom values
RSL I do not this was alex request
Joanie: I wonder if this related
performance
... There is a sanity check of these strings
RS: ... validilty check...
... What he wants it to be is a string....
... If we say these are reserved words, these are predefined
values, or let them ....
MB: What is the problem with custom values
RS: ATs don't know what to do with it
MB: Is it a problem for the AT?
RS: If they have not seen it
before they .... if something sia step in the process is
valuable
... Date token is in a calendar...., we can put the user as a
string and then it needs to be translated
Joanie: I like currentfor people
didn't like that so now we have tokens
... Where I am going with this is if it is any string than what
does it do with it, only need to localize if it is going to
speak it
... What is an AT support to do with this?
RS: If it is a page in a list,
and you have a page number, ie I am this far into a
document
... Bread crumbs is an example of this
Joanie: orca can look at this and
say the current page or current step
... These values are programmitically useful
RS: A separate attribute for user translatable...
<joanie> scribe: joanie
<Jjemma> scribe: Jemma
<joanie> scribenick: Jjemma
Joanie: the problem is there is no context for AT, ie. when AT will speak.
RS: no semantics for this aria current
joanie: is not clear where user is at, child or parent component when it says "current"
<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The WAI-ARIA spec. says that user agents SHOULD, NOT MUST, map unknown values to true. The actual value test, for validity, can be passed to accessibility test tools. Additionally, the group feels that unknown values are not programmatically processable by ATs such as notifying the user how far they are along in a breadcrumb list. Additionally, any custom values would require translattion by the author per language making custom values less
<richardschwerdtfeger> valuable to the author and assistive technnology. The group feels that providing custom string values would harm the user experience, consequently we recommond closing the issue.
<joanie> Joanie: I question what will happen if we say the above, because it seems like we're giving permission to not validate the values.
<joanie> Joanie: As a result, I anticipate seeing new and unexpected values for the object attribute associated with aria-current.
<joanie> Joanie: In which case, why bother suggesting validation?
<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technologies.
<MichielBijl> +1
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
<joanie> +1
<janina> +1
+1
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: change the aria-current text second paragraph to say: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by user agents or assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technol[CUT]
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Joanie: Modify the ARIA spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1700 - Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].
<joanie> trackbot, associate action-1700 with issue-716
<trackbot> action-1700 (Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current) associated with issue-716.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/foce/force/ Succeeded: s/foce/force/ Succeeded: s/MB/BG/ Succeeded: s/MB/BG/ Succeeded: s/crazy stupid/questionable/ Succeeded: s/nofifying/notifying/ Found Scribe: jongund Inferring ScribeNick: jongund WARNING: No scribe lines found matching previous ScribeNick pattern: <Jjemma> ... Found Scribe: jongund Inferring ScribeNick: jongund Found Scribe: joanie Found Scribe: Jemma Found ScribeNick: Jjemma Scribes: jongund, joanie, Jemma ScribeNicks: Jjemma, jongund Present: Tzviya_Siegman Janina Joanmarie_Diggs Jemma_Jaeun_Ku MichaelC jongund Michiel Bryan Bryan_Garaventa Rich Regrets: JamesC Fred Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0004.html Found Date: 06 Aug 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html People with action items: joanie[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]