IRC log of pointerevents on 2015-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:17 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents

15:01:17 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-irc

15:01:23 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make log Public

15:01:35 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

15:01:35 [ArtB]

Scribe: ArtB

15:01:35 [ArtB]

Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference

15:01:35 [ArtB]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0111.html

15:01:36 [scott_gonzalez]

scott_gonzalez has joined #pointerevents

15:03:03 [asir]

asir has joined #pointerevents

15:04:15 [ArtB]

Present: Art_Barstow, Scott_González, Rick_Byers, Patrick_H_Lauke, Tim_Dresser, Mustaq_Ahmed

15:04:26 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:04:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

15:04:45 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make log Public

15:05:49 [ArtB]

Present+ Asir_Vedamuthu

15:08:22 [ArtB]

Topic: Tweak and agree on agenda

15:08:30 [ArtB]

AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0111.html. It includes quite a few topics but I think some of them might go quickly. Any change requests?

15:08:58 [ArtB]

RB: can drop #5

15:09:04 [ArtB]

… think we covered it on the list

15:09:29 [ArtB]

AB: we can take it in order and then drop it

15:10:15 [rbyers]

test now

15:10:21 [ArtB]

Topic: Hover click with pointer events

15:10:21 [rbyers]

any better?

15:10:24 [scott_gonzalez]

yes

15:10:27 [patrick_h_lauke]

rbyers yes think so

15:10:29 [ArtB]

AB: Timothy sent this e-mail to the list on April 22 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0080.html and Patrick replied yesterday https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0112.html voicing support.

15:10:29 [ArtB]

AB: if there is agreement to add this feature, then we need a PR or an Editor can take the lead and commit text.

15:10:30 [rbyers]

crap

15:11:08 [ArtB]

AB: Tim, Patrick, any comments?

15:11:20 [ArtB]

PL: agree in principle would be good to have

15:11:26 [jrossi]

jrossi has joined #pointerevents

15:11:44 [ArtB]

TD: think we need some more text

15:11:50 [jrossi]

had technical difficulties, but i'm here now

15:11:59 [ArtB]

Present+ Jacob_Rossi

15:12:00 [jrossi]

is the call working?

15:12:15 [jrossi]

i'm on but don't hear anyone

15:12:20 [ArtB]

RB: not clear how to update the spec for this

15:12:28 [ArtB]

… think we need PRs and then discuss them

15:13:26 [ArtB]

MA: think we need more text to cover this

15:13:49 [rbyers]

Yes, let's discuss the specific spec impact

15:13:50 [patrick_h_lauke]

i think there are two aspects to this from my point of view

15:13:58 [ArtB]

AB: so I think Rick is asking for a proposal and/or PR. Is that correct Rick?

15:14:06 [rbyers]

I think Mustaq was saying there are expections in the spec that may be violated by changing this

15:14:09 [patrick_h_lauke]

a) do we open up the possibility that button/buttons is changed even when stylus is hovering

15:14:23 [patrick_h_lauke]

(which it currently doesn't, at least on surface 3 + surface pen)

15:14:37 [patrick_h_lauke]

b) whether we then also want to differentiate hovering pen vs touching pen

15:15:53 [patrick_h_lauke]

+1 audio quality is...sub-par

15:16:23 [mustaq]

I was trying to say: we have events for change-of-stylus-state w.r.t. touch surface...

15:16:35 [ArtB]

AB: I think we need more discussion and proposals

15:16:42 [mustaq]

but in this case we need events for button state changes.

15:16:50 [mustaq]

like buttonchange?

15:17:03 [patrick_h_lauke]

hmm, so that's perhaps even a third point

15:17:19 [ArtB]

TD: I agree with following up on the list

15:17:23 [patrick_h_lauke]

c) firing an event when button state changes

15:17:31 [ArtB]

AB: ok, let's do that

15:17:38 [ArtB]

Topic: Non-scroll-blocking wheel events listeners / relationship to PEWG?

15:17:46 [ArtB]

AB: Rick continued this thread on April 22 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0081.html. Is there a specific Action and/or Issue(s) to record?

15:17:47 [scott_gonzalez]

The spec says that you get a pointermove event if the buttons change.

15:18:07 [scott_gonzalez]

"Additionally, when a pointer changes button state, pressure, tilt, or contact geometry (e.g. width and height) and the circumstances produce no other pointer events defined in this specification then a user agent must fire a pointer event named pointermove."

15:18:07 [patrick_h_lauke]

scott ah, good point...forgot

15:18:43 [ArtB]

RB: the big picture here is we are seeing cases where blocking event handlers are bad for perf

15:18:54 [ArtB]

… have probs f.ex. wheel cases

15:19:11 [ArtB]

… need to address wheel events and touch events

15:19:27 [ArtB]

… not clear which group is the best place to have this discussion

15:19:36 [ArtB]

… could be www-dom or public-touchevents

15:19:42 [ArtB]

… I'll make a proposal on Github

15:19:51 [ArtB]

… and then we can decide on how to proceed

15:19:55 [ArtB]

AB: that sounds GTM

15:20:11 [ArtB]

JR: I'm ok with having this discussion in this group

15:20:19 [ArtB]

… and getting discussion on GH is good too

15:20:36 [ArtB]

… this is definitely an area of interest to us v-a-v Edge

15:20:56 [ArtB]

RB: we had some discussion with Moz/Toronto

15:21:13 [ArtB]

… they have a heuristic that works for them

15:21:33 [ArtB]

… it could be a counter-proposal to my wheel proposal

15:21:40 [ArtB]

JR: or perhaps can do both

15:23:39 [ArtB]

RB: I'll include information about why this is important to solve

15:23:46 [ArtB]

AB: that SGTM

15:24:02 [ArtB]

Topic: Expected behavior when releasing a button after pointer capture

15:24:11 [ArtB]

AB: Scott started this thread on April 27 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0089.html. Rick's last reply seems to imply a change is needed https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0092.html i.e. it appears a concrete proposal (PR) would be useful.

15:25:31 [ArtB]

[ Scott summarized the proposal ]

15:26:22 [ArtB]

SG: Rick noted browsers are converging on this behavior for mouse events

15:26:58 [ArtB]

RB: the history is complicated for mouse events

15:27:04 [ArtB]

… not sure about the right answer

15:27:12 [ArtB]

… we are doing some related compat testing

15:27:52 [ArtB]

… can argue we need mouse and pe event compat

15:28:04 [ArtB]

… We need implementation feedback to guide the design

15:28:33 [ArtB]

SG: you mentioned FF is changing and Chrome is changing too

15:28:57 [ArtB]

RB: both WK and Chrome do not fire events continuously during a scroll

15:29:22 [scott_gonzalez]

http://dev-test.nemikor.com/behavior/mouseover-when-element-is-shown.html

15:29:59 [ArtB]

SG: not sure if FF uses heuristic to prevent their behavior

15:31:05 [ArtB]

RB: we need to be consistent with mouse events

15:31:27 [ArtB]

… but we might want to also define the most rational thing for PE events (regardless of mouse events)

15:32:20 [ArtB]

JR: think we need to be careful to change things just for one scenario (scrolling, animations, layout)

15:32:41 [ArtB]

… haven't seen issues without having this behavior today

15:33:04 [ArtB]

… I'm not particularly alamed by our behavior to change it

15:33:17 [ArtB]

… but if I am missing some compat issues, then would be good to know

15:34:43 [ArtB]

RB: mouse cursor is an interesting scenario

15:35:10 [ArtB]

… we have a hack with a timer that updates mouse cursor

15:35:30 [ArtB]

… what does IE do?

15:35:41 [ArtB]

JR: not sure off the top-of-my-head

15:36:03 [ArtB]

[ Jacob talks about IE implementation details ]

15:37:00 [ArtB]

JR: if you have some impl feedback here, please share that info

15:37:17 [rbyers]

Here's the main one: http://crbug.com/26723

15:37:55 [ArtB]

AB: perhaps we should record an issue so we don't loose track of this

15:38:00 [ArtB]

JR: sure

15:38:35 [ArtB]

… would expect this to be tricky for us to implement

15:38:54 [ArtB]

RB: there is definitely a potential performance hit

15:39:11 [rbyers]

Related http://crbug.com/173712, http://crbug.com/246304,

15:39:20 [ArtB]

JR: yes, agree there is a potential performance implication

15:39:28 [rbyers]

Big picture issue that covers the whole space here: http://crbug.com/488886

15:39:40 [ArtB]

… therefore we need to know for sure there is a compelling compat issue that needs to be solved

15:40:04 [ArtB]

SG: in general, yes I can see lots of changes might be needed

15:40:25 [ArtB]

… but if just loosing pointer-capture, that's just one case

15:40:52 [ArtB]

JR: I think the consequences could be broad for us

15:42:19 [ArtB]

RB: think the changes for Chrome would be more incremental

15:42:56 [ArtB]

… FF almost always updates the hover state

15:43:08 [ArtB]

… IE only does the update if cursor moves

15:43:22 [ArtB]

… and Chrome is somewhat in the middle

15:44:59 [scott_gonzalez]

This is the oldest ticket I can find related to this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20022

15:45:23 [ArtB]

AB: would you Scott please create a GH Issue?

15:45:28 [ArtB]

SG: yes

15:45:38 [ArtB]

Topic: Capture semantics for a node that moves between documents

15:45:52 [ArtB]

AB: Rick started this thread on April 30 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0095.html. Scott cited text that appears to address Rick's question so not clear if this is a NOP or if some additional text would be helpful.

15:46:07 [ArtB]

RB: I agree; let's move on

15:47:53 [ArtB]

SG: lots of implementation diffs here

15:48:12 [ArtB]

… f.ex. with replaceNode

15:48:50 [ArtB]

RB: if there are related issues f.ex. in jQuery, please do let us know

15:49:11 [ArtB]

Topic: Correcting inverted pan direction definition

15:49:23 [ArtB]

AB: on May 8 Rick committed a correction re the pan direction definition https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0100.html (commit https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/commit/8548506a7db4de67fa6b8ca997887fdb6a0c8056). Any comments?

15:50:09 [jrossi]

LGTM

15:50:23 [ArtB]

AB: any other comments?

15:50:33 [ArtB]

Topic: Bugs and Issues

15:50:46 [ArtB]

AB: there is one open Bugzilla bug http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents and a few open Issues https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues.

15:50:46 [ArtB]

AB: Do we want to discuss any of these today or expect discussion to continue online (i.e. the list, Bugzilla and/or Github)?

15:51:25 [ArtB]

JR: no

15:51:28 [ArtB]

RB: no

15:51:48 [ArtB]

AB: so everyone, please provide feedback

15:51:50 [ArtB]

Topic: Implementation status

15:51:55 [ArtB]

AB: any updates on implementation?

15:52:33 [ArtB]

AV: Matt isn't here today re FireFox

15:52:34 [jrossi]

new implementation: Microsoft Edge :-)

15:52:40 [ArtB]

… so let's get that input next time

15:52:42 [jrossi]

;-)

15:53:17 [ArtB]

DS: is the Edge mostly the same as IE impl?

15:53:26 [ArtB]

JR: mostly the same; some bug fixes

15:53:32 [patrick_h_lauke]

forgot where we stood with it, but: what are we doing about the event order / simplified model that Edge uses?

15:53:34 [ArtB]

Present+ Doug_Schepers

15:53:57 [ArtB]

RB: we are actively landing patches

15:54:06 [ArtB]

… Mustaq has patches

15:54:18 [ArtB]

… still quite far from doing everything we need to do

15:54:24 [ArtB]

JR: is there a flag yet?

15:54:32 [ArtB]

RB: there is a flag in Canary

15:54:49 [ArtB]

… have the basic support in JavaScript

15:54:54 [ArtB]

AB: great

15:55:05 [ArtB]

RB: just a command line flag now

15:55:07 [rbyers]

--enable-blink-features=PointerEvent

15:55:22 [ArtB]

AV: which features are supported

15:55:30 [ArtB]

RB: create and dispatch events now

15:55:41 [ArtB]

… some p-up and p-down support

15:55:54 [ArtB]

… no leave yet and other stuff missing

15:56:04 [ArtB]

… can follow the status via a Chrome bug

15:56:20 [rbyers]

Top level chrome bug: http://crbug.com/471824

15:56:21 [ArtB]

AB: thanks for the updates

15:56:27 [ArtB]

Topic: AoB

15:56:37 [ArtB]

AB: any other topics for today

15:56:53 [ArtB]

JR: there are some issues with test library

15:56:59 [ArtB]

… need some new test cases

15:57:00 [rbyers]

Firing pointer events for touch input is the main thing Mustaq is working on now. http://crbug.com/476565

15:57:14 [ArtB]

… we plan to contribute them back and will ask for review

15:57:32 [mustaq]

In canary, the --enable-blink-features=PointerEvent flag makes PEs visible.

15:57:38 [jrossi]

yes it's pretty cool

15:57:40 [ArtB]

SG: we pull in w3c test suite and pull them in with WebDriver

15:57:53 [jrossi]

https://github.com/jquery/pep

15:57:59 [ArtB]

RB: want to talk about how to make the test more automated

15:58:10 [ArtB]

DS: good; we need to do that across other groups too

15:58:33 [ArtB]

SG: if there is a missing test, we will write it and automate it with WD

15:58:49 [ArtB]

RB: are there some manual instructions too?

15:59:06 [ArtB]

SG: we are loading the test as is and then feeds the assertion back

15:59:20 [ArtB]

… and define WD steps in a separate file

15:59:20 [scott_gonzalez]

https://github.com/jquery/PEP/blob/master/tests/functional/pointerevent_button_attribute_mouse-manual.js

15:59:23 [jrossi]

https://github.com/theintern/recorder

15:59:56 [ArtB]

RB: we need to do something like this too

16:00:06 [ArtB]

… thus seems like we need to share these files

16:00:16 [ArtB]

DS: yes, make them part of the harness

16:00:26 [ArtB]

SG: agree; that's why I mentioned this topic

16:00:57 [ArtB]

JR: definitely want to get more automation of w3c tests

16:01:13 [ArtB]

s/JR: definitely/RB: definitely/

16:01:37 [ArtB]

DS: seems like we need to broaden the scope of the discussion

16:01:44 [ArtB]

… since this isn't just PE specific

16:01:50 [ArtB]

… I can set up a meeting

16:02:06 [ArtB]

… Scott, is there a document about what you are doing?

16:02:14 [ArtB]

SG: no; but we can create something

16:02:33 [ArtB]

JR: agree this is important

16:02:37 [AutomatedTester]

AutomatedTester has joined #pointerevents

16:02:53 [ArtB]

… WebDriver needs more APIs then the basic features supported now

16:03:03 [ArtB]

… especially for touch and pointer events

16:03:44 [ArtB]

… think they need to do more work before we use WD directly for our scenarios

16:04:08 [ArtB]

RB: yes, we would be interested in a common way to do this

16:04:45 [ArtB]

AB: so Doug, are you volunteering to start a thread or have a call

16:04:55 [ArtB]

DS: yes

16:05:00 [jrossi]

raises hand

16:05:01 [ArtB]

… who is interested?

16:05:05 [ArtB]

RB: me

16:05:07 [ArtB]

SG: me

16:05:08 [ArtB]

JR: me

16:05:09 [ArtB]

AB: me

16:05:17 [asir]

me too

16:05:24 [jrossi]

Zakim, I won't miss you when you're gone

16:05:24 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'I won't miss you when you're gone', jrossi

16:05:26 [ArtB]

… I think public-test-infra would be a place to start

16:05:46 [ArtB]

… MikeSmith might know the WD driver list

16:05:47 [rbyers]

WebDriver spec says public-browser-tools-testing@w3.org

16:05:53 [rbyers]

https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html

16:06:30 [jrossi]

sure, something predictable would be nice rather than ad hoc

16:06:32 [ArtB]

AB: what about call frequency?

16:06:52 [rbyers]

monthly sounds good to me

16:06:58 [rbyers]

we can add more if necessary

16:07:00 [ArtB]

AV: something predictable would be good and then cancel if necessary

16:07:14 [ArtB]

Present+ Matt_Brubeck

16:07:54 [rbyers]

sorry need to drop off

16:08:44 [mbrubeck]

I'll just add on IRC that we enabled Pointer Events in Firefox Nightly a little while ago, found some bugs and disabled it, but should be ready to re-enable it in the next few days.

16:09:07 [ArtB]

AB: Matt, that's great; thanks for this info!

16:09:17 [scott_gonzalez]

https://github.com/jquery/PEP/blob/master/tests/intern.js#L6-L10

16:09:22 [ArtB]

AB: meeting adjourned

16:09:39 [asir]

Thank you for sharing the info Matt! Great!

16:09:46 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:09:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

16:10:29 [ArtB]

Chair: ArtB

16:10:42 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:10:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

16:11:06 [mbrubeck]

ArtB: Feel free to ping me on IRC if I miss the start of a call... that'll buzz my phone. I'm often busy getting the kid to school around that time and forget to check in on time.

16:29:50 [smaug]

smaug has joined #pointerevents

16:36:31 [patrick_h_lauke]

patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents

16:51:59 [ArtB]

zakim, bye

16:51:59 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #pointerevents

16:52:04 [ArtB]

rrsagent, bye

16:52:04 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items