See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 14 May 2015
WebEx link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m523c9f623a4979f4952a9bb93531b909
password for webex: matf
WebEx link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m523c9f623a4979f4952a9bb93531b909
<Alan_Smith> I am only in on irc, password for webex did not work and I cannot call from Italy
<Kathy> it needs to be all lower case
<Alan_Smith> Kim's email had password as 6283
<Alan_Smith> ok, I'll try. Thanks
<Alan_Smith> Working on ipad mini and windows 8 tablet from italy
<jon_avila> I wish there was a way to stop Cisco from flashing
<Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Perceivable_Techniques
Kathy: best practices, advisory
or sufficient – what issue should we have listed pertaining to
nonlinear screen layout
... is there anything more we need or is this more of a best
practice
Marc: would focus order or meaningful sequence come into play
Kathy: this is where you have a whole page coming in from the side – it could have a focus order
Marc: if you swipe from the side and it covers only a quarter of the screen like a menu wouldn't change focus
Jeanne: along the lines of
ignoring the Dom we should have an extensive conversation about
this everywhere in the accessibility field.
... ignore Dom and use accessibility APIs instead but
accessibility APIs don't always provide all information.
... if browsers ignore Dom there are huge implications
... ignoring the Dom can increase speed of browser
... there's a proposal to PF called WAPA that talks about this.
Not going to download ARIA information unless they get the
query from an API I don't know how much aria is used outside
assistive technology, but if it does… I don't know how much
this will affect things, but we need to think about these
issues
Jon: there are a lot of other things that can rely on those things that aren't necessarily accessibility – headings. I'm also concerned about just in time loading of accessibility features.
Jeanne: maybe that's something we
can say here pretty simply. Anything working outside the DOM
has to be properly communicated to the accessibility API. I
don't want to write that technique but I know people who we can
go to who do
... highly recommend talking to colleagues who are in PF with
these issues. If they have looked at this issue and have said
it's not a problem we need to know the reasoning
<jeanne> Anything working outside the DOM must communicate it to the accessibilityAPI
Jon: looking things up – if you
use speech recognition and you want to use your voice to
programmatically affect an element it's not a two-way
street
... one of the things that is proposed is the assistive
technology should be able to communicate back to platforms
which includes browsers to get a set of the actions that are
available to control and to be able to perform those actions
that are available from the assistive technology
... the concept is good because it provides assistive
technology another way to get access to the information. What
concerns me is if we solely rely on that and not the Dom you
going to block a bunch of technology that can't access the API.
It really depends on if there's fall back support provided in
the Dom. I think it's good but there could be consequences that
are negative
<jon_avila> https://github.com/cyns/wapa
Kathy: we will leave that for now
we can come back and review that again
... the other thing that we had in our list from before and
this came from the BBC guidelines
<jeanne> DId we already discuss the need for signalling to the user that there is information that can be pulled from the side.
Kathy: M19
Jeanne: back to nonlinear – we need to signal users that there is something available
Kathy: I think it's important to have the correct affordances
Jeanne: also focus
Marc: focus order
Alan: question about nonlinear – is that a side menu coming into the screen
Jeanne: the use case I was thinking of is swiping into an article, how do you know
so you don't lose your location on the main page
Jeanne: I think we have a lot in nonlinear
Alan: do we have a list - focus, reading order, should something come in and take focus over the reading order that's hidden
Mike: on the nonlinear case it seems like at least two cases – when something slides in from half the screen that the user doesn't initiate an ad or something. The other thing is when something happens and when the user intends to go to that spot
Kathy: what's an example of where we would do that programmatically. I think that would fail WCAG right from the start – changing action not from the user focus but automatically
Mike: example, notification on the screen. Or I tap on a hamburger and something slides over half the screen but I intended to do that. Sometimes something happens, sometimes user causes it to happen in both cases it can be outside the DOM
Jeanne: useful to have these as use cases – browsers really want clear use cases for accessibility problems
Mike: here's another example I
think we do this in Yahoo mail so I wont suggest whether it's
good or bad. If you take an action and a message pops up about
that action the message will pop up and become part of the
swipe order on that screen – it's something the user initiated
but it's not necessarily happening instantly it's happening
sometime later
... another example is pop up banner ads that you don't want to
take focus to, but that's just the way the website works
Jon: that last case would be a failure of 2.2.2. The first example sounds like a non-modal pop-up. I think they are working on that for aria 1.1
Kim: if a speech user doesn't realize the focus is going to change, they can get in trouble because they're issuing a command that goes to the wrong place. You can issue a stacked command and if the focus changes in the middle of command execution half the command can execute at a different focus point
Kathy: the last one in this list
is metadata
... is this a technique that we should also include. Is this
something that is specific to mobile – I don't think it is but
would like to get your thoughts
Jon: could this be advisory? There are some meta-techniquesu under 1.1, says future technique, others audio only future technique
Kathy: we could add these in his
advisory technique – is this something people think we should
tackle? This is really relevant to what the BBC is doing.
... it does have some benefit for mobile because you could get
an alternative version. Can you actually switch the sun mobile
– the alternate version of webpages?
Marc: I'm over you can switch to the desktop version
Jon: on the mobile browser generally it's not very apparent
Kathy: maybe if it's not something that's readily implemented within the browsers lower priority item because it would be advisory right now
Jeanne: we should look at this in UAAG
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to research the use of metadata in UAAG as related to the M19 technique [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Research the use of metadata in uaag as related to the m19 technique [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-05-21].
Kathy: next week will get started on looking at feedback and questions from WCAG,, then take a look at understandable, then take a look at this as a whole to see if there are any other techniques that we want to do. We will also start talking about assignments. Some of them we already have in draft format that we can start passing over to the WCAG working group.
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