IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-05-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:12 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-mobile-a11y-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
14:53:14 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
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Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:53:17 [trackbot]
Date: 07 May 2015
14:53:29 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:55:26 [Kim]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015May/0001.html
14:55:38 [Kim]
agenda+ Perceivable Best Practices
14:55:39 [Kim]
agenda+ WebEx Information
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agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, May 14
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WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
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Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
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+Kathy_Wahlbin
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+Kim_Patch
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invite rrsagent
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rrsagent, make log world
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meeting: Mobile A11Y TF
14:59:56 [Kathy]
chair: Kathy
15:00:05 [Kathy]
regrets + Henny
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jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
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+Jeanne
15:01:53 [marcjohlic]
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+jon_avila
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15:03:43 [Zakim]
+Kenny
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+Marc_Johlic
15:05:24 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Perceivable_Techniques
15:06:00 [Kim]
Kathy: Perceivable techniques and WebEx today
15:07:20 [Kim]
Kathy: last week we talked about smaller screen size, this week zoom/modification and linear layout
15:07:44 [Kim]
Kathy: we've incorporated the techniques that we had in the techniques list from a while back as well as things from the note as well as other things that have come up in conversation
15:08:15 [Kim]
Kathy: go through each one of those, should they be best practice or technique, then identify anything else within zoom or magnification that's important to add
15:08:35 [Kim]
zakim, take up item 1
15:08:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Perceivable Best Practices" taken up [from Kim]
15:09:10 [Kim]
Kathy: what are your thoughts on ensuring that the menu can be zoomed to 200% – is that a technique we should have in here, is it more of a situational best practice?
15:09:29 [Kim]
Marc: is 200% measurable or testable on mobile?
15:10:21 [Kim]
Kathy: in a responsive design you can lock the viewport size into maximum scale of 2.0 with 200% so you can look at the viewport settings, which is the next one down. So within the viewport we got a way of testing because it's the maximum you can get it to. I don't know if we have a way of measuring on an app though other than ball parking
15:10:56 [Kim]
Jon: physically measure, if you look at accessibility zoom or pinch zoom – accessibility zoom has a slider that you can actually do 200%
15:11:48 [Kim]
Kathy: there's three different levels – the OS magnification that you can set, we've also got browser functions, and then we've got pinch Zoom all based on the viewport settings
15:12:44 [Kim]
Jon: font page hard to tell us something is 18.5 or 14 so you can match
15:13:07 [Kim]
Kathy: would screen size come into play or pixel size or is 200% same across devices
15:13:52 [Kim]
Kathy: WCAG guideline is 200%
15:14:51 [Kim]
Kathy: Greg comments of things we should be thinking about especially in terms of large text. I'm going through those now. Maybe he has some ideas. There was discussion back and forth – breakpoints, dots per inch
15:15:22 [Kim]
Kathy: sizes overall going to be a challenge with everything we are doing on mobile because there's not a good way to benchmark it
15:15:55 [Kim]
Kathy: getting back to Jon's comment about Jim Thatcher's page, that was easy to set up. Drawing the lines to see what's 200%, that might be a good way
15:17:37 [Kim]
Marc: the menu one – that wouldn't work
15:17:39 [Kim]
Jon: event.scale property on pinch function, does DOM keep track, but does app follow that we don't know for sure
15:17:54 [Kim]
Jon: if you go into a larger text there's a slider, and well that doesn't show magnification level it does show you different examples of text
15:18:40 [Kim]
Jon: so you could compare them but that's it
15:18:41 [Kim]
Jon: in Firefox there are plug-ins
15:18:51 [Kim]
Jon: I didn't find a lot for mobile browsers, but maybe that's changing
15:19:11 [Kim]
Kathy: is it something we can write or have one of the groups write and then reference in a guideline if we can come up with something
15:19:29 [Kim]
Jon: if you look at the actual sufficient technique it has that same challenge
15:20:00 [Kim]
Kathy: any insight on the WCAG discussions that went around that?
15:20:27 [Kim]
Kathy: as far as writing a best practice or technique is it important to have one that calls out a menu specifically
15:21:18 [Kim]
Jeanne: more important to be able to go higher than 200% – 200% on the phone as much at all. For some webpages especially ones that are not responsive design you have to go 1000%
15:22:07 [Kim]
Jon: we could put a statement in their we're not saying that by going to 200% your making content accessible, using because that's WCAG, but we are not saying that means that it's going to be accessible to people with low vision. Same with contrast
15:22:34 [Kim]
Jon: we don't want to imply that this is somehow a number that makes it accessible. It's more of a threshold that we have to realistically say once you get to too big you have a very small number of characters or words that appear on the screen so for that reason we don't test above that
15:23:24 [Kim]
Kathy: maybe we change that – note explicitly stating what you and Jeanne just said. I think it's much more beyond the menu. I see problems where only part of the screen magnifies
15:24:03 [Kim]
Kathy: what everybody be okay with just stating that we need to have zoom to 200% and a note saying magnification would likely be beneficial to those with low vision
15:25:02 [Kim]
Jon: when it talks about menus it says when you increase the font size menus may look odd to users. I think the concern is that sometimes- on a normal page you might scroll but menus might be fixed size container, may be pushed off screen or disappear
15:25:14 [Kim]
Kathy: we need to add notes into our page reflecting that
15:26:54 [Kim]
Kathy: keep it as is but address the navigation that is specific to mobile
15:27:41 [Kim]
Kathy: maybe we should say to at least 200% instead of 200%
15:27:54 [jon_avila]
Menus in particular may present unique challenges when content is magnified to 200%. This may occur because menus often appear vertically and accessing menu items that scroll out of the viewable area may be truncated and/or may present challenges such as menus may disappear when the user scrolls the viewable area.
15:29:37 [Kim]
Kathy: what about supporting the characteristic properties the platform, zoom, larger font, captions, also darkened colors. A lot coming that work on apps but not necessarily on the webside. Thoughts?
15:29:56 [Kim]
Marc: no issues with this one – for including
15:30:09 [Kim]
Kathy: to what extent should we talk about the characteristic properties.
15:30:32 [Kim]
Marc: has to be open-ended because of the differences among devices
15:31:03 [Kim]
Jon: as a developer you're creating for android, but different hardware
15:31:47 [Kim]
Kathy: on android there's a large variety of settings. IOS it's more version numbers
15:32:42 [Kim]
Jeanne: approach it to say write your code so that if the manufacturer exposes it that is taken first, then have your own setting as a backup if you can't get it from the manufacturer, the platform. And then finally if there's a known bug in the platform don't code around it so you don't break it for other situations– well maybe that one should be separate because that's a separate issue
15:33:37 [Kim]
Kathy: thinking about the actual implementation if we look at mobile web we are thinking about with the browser is doing too. UAAG – something about honoring OS settings?
15:33:48 [Kim]
Jeanne: yes – by section
15:33:54 [jeanne]
Jeanne: If the platform exposes the settings, use them. Otherwise, provide an appropriate default setting.
15:34:34 [Kim]
Kathy: what are specific challenges we are seeing around this in terms of text size, larger font, zoom things. What are things we are finding on the mobile website that would be impacted by setting characteristic properties or something that would prevent this from working
15:35:59 [Kim]
Jon: on Safari, font face, but other information I don't know if developer has control over, but as long as you meet contrast requirements. Provide an option for improved contrast beyond what may be available. That gets down to user preference. Is there a current WCAG technique for user preference
15:36:05 [Kim]
Kathy: there's also user preference within the browsers
15:37:01 [Kim]
Jeanne: I would think this is more applicable to apps than to websites. Websites are at the mercy of does the browser pick up the OS settings – I suppose some APIs that could do it but mostly. But for apps is a different story
15:37:19 [Kim]
Kathy: except if you use the Apple system font you get the larger font size in Safari because then dynamic text takes effect
15:37:49 [Kim]
Jon: in CSS
15:38:50 [Kim]
Jon: I would be fine just limiting it to software. As far as captions I don't know if a webpage would be able to get to a user's caption preferences in OS? Automatically if you use a default video player? If you use the default video player and it does bring over the caption preferences for a webpage we have a strong case to say as a developer you need to provide more options
15:39:22 [Kim]
Jon: I'll test that and get back to the group
15:39:44 [Kim]
Kathy: Kevin Earl may have some more information that we can get directly where he has done testing
15:40:12 [Kim]
Kathy: summing up – more applicable to apps and media players
15:40:58 [Kim]
Topic: Provide a way for users to change the font size
15:41:25 [Kim]
Jon: Silverlight text elements – you something similar
15:42:17 [Kim]
Topic: ensure snap scrolling does not prevent access to content resize of text
15:42:58 [Kim]
Kathy: very specific case – anything to add or others that are similar?
15:44:01 [Kim]
Jon: I noticed this – once I zoomed in when I moved around a thought I was scrolling the page so is difficult to access the truncated content
15:44:40 [Kim]
Jon: it's my understanding that the idea in general would be problematic
15:45:10 [Kim]
Topic: ensure fixed position content does not prevent access to content when text is resized
15:45:29 [Kim]
Kathy: straightforward – any comment? Is there anything that's not in this list?
15:45:36 [Kim]
Topic: contrast
15:47:31 [Kim]
Kathy: is there anything else we need to consider as far as contrast on mobile? Could make a note that it would be beneficial for some users to be higher than 4.51, but shouldn't require higher
15:49:38 [Kim]
Kathy: WCAG requirement is 1.2 times default, so were not doing anything different here.
15:49:39 [Kim]
Jon: does not say in actual standards, it's in the guidance, and that's not normative
15:52:05 [Kim]
Jon: G114, G145 all in understanding document
15:52:22 [Kim]
Kathy: I do think it would be helpful if we had some tools to reference but I don't know many tools that are out there
15:52:41 [Kim]
Kathy: on the tool they were developing is this something that they would consider scanning for?
15:52:56 [Kim]
Jeanne: something they were looking at don't know how much detail they were going into
15:53:38 [Kim]
Jon: iOS HTML 5, videos always seem to open up to the platform player
15:54:21 [Kim]
Marc: on this contrast one just having that default text size – is there a stated default text size on the IOS
15:54:37 [Kim]
Jon: it's based on the default size for the page
15:55:50 [Kim]
Zakim, take up item 2
15:55:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "WebEx Information" taken up [from Kim]
15:59:22 [Kim]
Jeanne: the email has the link for the call. You can have it call you or you can connect to the meeting with your computer or you can dial in directly. I'll put the phone number in the meeting agenda. If you are calling in you call in and put in your code
15:59:44 [Kim]
Jeanne: when I was running test last week if the host wasn't there you couldn't get in
16:02:08 [Kim]
Jeanne: background – for 20 years MIT has hosted the zakim bridge. They've switched over. They've offered us the use of their WebEx system. We will lose some features – see who's on call, raise your hand from your phone, but if you are you are using IRC you can use the queue there. WebEx has some good tricks – screen sharing, although not accessibly. It allows video. We are not...
16:02:09 [Kim]
...running the...
16:02:11 [Kim]
...latest version. MIT has promised they will upgrade to a new version that is supposed to be more accessible but have not done it yet.
16:03:26 [Kim]
Jeanne: what it does well video, slides, clarity is good, voice over IP. You can have it call you doesn't matter where in the world, no restriction on being called by the system.
16:03:43 [jeanne]
https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m53b1b60a6036509754cc27dae8b39a88
16:03:58 [jeanne]
646 316 248
16:04:07 [jeanne]
+1-617-324-0000 US Toll Number
16:05:53 [Kim]
Jeanne: set it up to start next week. Key thing is when you login and it downloads the little app – it does it every time. Large audio button, click, options use computer, call me
16:07:13 [Kim]
Kathy: we will try to use this next week, we expect there will be problems getting in, but we will work with everybody on trying to get this set up
16:09:10 [Kim]
Jeanne: we Zakim as a backup if you can't get in on WebEx - still using chat. Type present+
16:09:12 [Kim]
Kathy: we will send out instructions to get this to work next week
16:10:23 [Kim]
Jeanne: we have until the end of June to work out the kinks.
16:10:33 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
16:10:37 [Zakim]
-jon_avila
16:10:38 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
16:10:38 [Zakim]
-Kathy_Wahlbin
16:10:39 [Zakim]
-Marc_Johlic
16:10:39 [Zakim]
-Kenny
16:10:41 [Zakim]
WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
16:10:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were Kathy_Wahlbin, Kim_Patch, Jeanne, jon_avila, Kenny, Marc_Johlic
16:12:13 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:18:28 [Kim]
rrsagent, bye
16:18:28 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items