IRC log of svg on 2015-04-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:20:46 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-svg-irc
20:20:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:20:48 [Zakim]
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20:20:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:20:50 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:30PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
20:20:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:20:51 [trackbot]
Date: 30 April 2015
20:20:54 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
20:21:12 [heycam]
Regrets: Amelia, Brian, Erik
20:21:16 [stakagi]
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Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0055.html
20:23:20 [heycam]
Regrets+ Dirk
20:29:22 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()4:30PM has now started
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+Doug_Schepers
20:29:46 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:29:48 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
20:29:48 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:29:49 [AmeliaBR]
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+Thomas_Smailus
20:31:42 [smailus]
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+??P3
20:32:12 [stakagi]
zakim, ??P3 is me
20:32:12 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
20:32:36 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
20:33:18 [Rossen]
zakim, microsoft is me
20:33:18 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
20:34:20 [smailus]
I've got to leave in 30 so will only be able to enjoy the first 1/2 the mtg.
20:34:43 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:34:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen
20:35:11 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:36:00 [Tav]
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20:36:31 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:36:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen, birtles
20:36:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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20:37:18 [birtles]
scribenick: birtles
20:37:23 [birtles]
scribe: birtles
20:37:31 [birtles]
topic: telcon day
20:37:37 [Zakim]
+??P6
20:37:44 [heycam]
http://doodle.com/8mfbynbh3rkr3myb
20:37:55 [birtles]
heycam: it looks we can't change the day, sorry Brian
20:38:01 [birtles]
... we'll stick with the current day and time
20:38:03 [Tav]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
20:38:03 [Zakim]
+Tav; got it
20:38:18 [birtles]
topic: blink's intent to deprecate SMIL
20:38:19 [heycam]
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/5o0yiO440LM
20:38:30 [birtles]
heycam: you would have seen this on the blink-dev mailing list
20:38:40 [birtles]
... the blink team want to deprecate SMIL (as opposed to remove it)
20:38:48 [birtles]
... i.e. add warnings when the features are removed
20:39:04 [birtles]
... and I think they want to evangelize people to use CSS animations etc. instead
20:39:15 [birtles]
... and I was wondering if people thought we should do something about that in the spec
20:39:17 [shepazu]
q+
20:39:25 [birtles]
... and how we think it impacts the future of that spec
20:39:45 [Zakim]
+??P7
20:39:51 [birtles]
shepazu: if I recall correctly, we already decided to remove SMIL from SVG2 correct?
20:39:56 [birtles]
heycam: no
20:40:13 [nikos_]
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20:40:30 [birtles]
shepazu: I thought we had decided to remove it from SVG2 and put it in its own animation-based spec (Animation Elements spec)
20:41:29 [birtles]
heycam: that was the general plan, but since Brian hasn't had time to get that spec it is still in SVG2
20:41:53 [birtles]
Tav: is there anything in SMIL not in Web Animations?
20:43:01 [birtles]
birtles: not really, but Web Animations doesn't have a declarative syntax
20:43:37 [birtles]
... so you couldn't, for example, animate the points on a path using in a declarative way
20:44:02 [birtles]
... so you couldn't make an SVG-in-OpenType font where the shape of the glyphs morphs (since you can't run script in that context)
20:44:19 [birtles]
nikos_: were they proposing to remove tear-off support?
20:44:42 [birtles]
(i.e. animVal/baseVal)
20:44:43 [birtles]
heycam: I think that may be the intention
20:44:51 [birtles]
nikos_: I'd like to remove that from WebKit
20:46:13 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:46:24 [birtles]
shepazu: how was this brought to the WG?
20:46:46 [birtles]
... it presents a challenge to standardization if implementors don't keep us in the loop with their intentions
20:47:12 [birtles]
Rossen: I sympathize with what you're saying, but I think choosing to support something or not is ultimately a business decision
20:48:18 [birtles]
... it was communicated publicly
20:48:30 [birtles]
shepazu: I'm surprised it wasn't communicated to the WG
20:50:01 [birtles]
... it makes it hard to respond
20:50:41 [birtles]
(some discussion about splitting animation into a separate spec)
20:51:12 [birtles]
Tav: can we get something like declarative animation for paths into a spec other than SMIL?
20:51:28 [birtles]
heycam: I think that's a good question
20:51:54 [birtles]
... if we're coming to the reality that SMIL might not continue then we need to look at the features not available through CSS
20:52:05 [birtles]
... Dirk recently worked on CSS Motion which helps with that
20:52:20 [birtles]
... that probably gives us a good basis for working on path morphing
20:52:30 [birtles]
Tav: I'd be really unhappy to lose that
20:53:16 [birtles]
birtles: yes, it's also hard to animate the points on a path so if we were to work on something new we might be able to fix that as well
20:53:50 [birtles]
heycam: my feeling is that, at a minimum, we should add a notice saying this feature might be deprecated
20:53:56 [shepazu]
q+
20:54:06 [birtles]
... others seem to be suggesting that we move it out into another spec
20:54:13 [birtles]
Rossen: deprecate on what basis?
20:54:14 [AmeliaBR]
The other key features of SMIL not supported in CSS are (a) multiple independent animations on the same element (with CSS, you need to nest lots of <div> or <g>, each animating a different property)
20:55:15 [birtles]
heycam: given that Blink is not removing the feature, just adding deprecation warnings, then maybe that is the message we should have in the spec as well
20:55:16 [AmeliaBR]
(b) chaining animations (can be done with CSS preprocessors, but it's messy)
20:55:38 [birtles]
... removing from the spec, so we can acknowledge that it's definitely not going to be in one of the major implementations, might be the better thing to do
20:55:57 [AmeliaBR]
(c) event-driven beyond the CSS pseudoclasses (need to use JavaScript / Web animations)
20:55:57 [birtles]
Rossen: on what basis do we deprecate it? simply because of Chrome?
20:56:40 [birtles]
shepazu: the main reason I think we should remove SMIL is that IE does not implement it and we want interop
20:57:19 [birtles]
... if there is a further signal from Chrome that they want to remove it then that brings it to the fore
20:57:26 [birtles]
Rossen: so who supports it?
20:57:42 [birtles]
shepazu: Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Presto, Batik?
20:57:50 [birtles]
Rossen: so we'd still have 2 implementations
20:58:21 [birtles]
shepazu: 2 implementations is not enough, we want something that has interoperability
20:58:42 [birtles]
heycam: I thought there was a hope at one point that Microsoft might implement once Web Animations was bedded down
20:59:24 [birtles]
shepazu: SVG2 was our first opportunity to deprecate things
20:59:50 [birtles]
... when Microsoft said they were not going to implement SVG fonts and SMIL we started the conversation
21:00:06 [birtles]
Rossen: are we considering removing SMIL? If so, I'm in full support
21:00:27 [Zakim]
-Thomas_Smailus
21:00:35 [birtles]
shepazu: I like the feature but I don't think we can tell developers in good conscience that there is interop so I think we should put it in a separate spec
21:00:46 [AmeliaBR]
Could we remove animation elements to a separate spec, without officially deprecating them in SVG 2? Don't want this to hold up recommendation status on the rest of SVG 2.
21:01:04 [birtles]
Tav: Until we have a substitute I don't think we should remove it
21:01:19 [birtles]
... specifically for the three items (a-c above) AmeliaBR raised
21:01:27 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:02:24 [shepazu]
q+
21:02:34 [birtles]
heycam: I think (c) you can listen to mouse events and begin the animations explicitly
21:02:55 [birtles]
and for (b) you can listen to events on the animation and start off other animations
21:03:38 [AmeliaBR]
To confirm: these are limitations of CSS animations. You can do all the above with JavaScript / web animations.
21:03:57 [AmeliaBR]
(but not in SVG-as-image)
21:04:27 [birtles]
birtles: for (b) I think you shouldn't do that, you'll get gaps between the animation
21:05:54 [birtles]
(discussion about (a)--again, you can do with Web Animations, but not in a declarative way)
21:06:40 [birtles]
shepazu: I would suggest that having these features in another module is functionally equivalent to having it in SVG2
21:07:06 [birtles]
... but if half the browsers are intent on removing this feature it doesn't help us to keep it in SVG2
21:08:27 [birtles]
... of the four or so rendering agents that are in major use, if only 2 might support this, then we couldn't in good faith but this in SVG2
21:08:40 [birtles]
... developers need strong interoperability
21:08:49 [AmeliaBR]
s/but this/put this/
21:09:12 [birtles]
nikos_: the pain of supporting the SVG in WebKIt is significant [animVal/baseVal I think]
21:09:54 [birtles]
heycam: deciding about this could be the impetus for us to investigate the remaining gaps between SVG animation and CSS animation
21:10:09 [birtles]
... I don't think leaving it in the spec is really leaving anyone any favours
21:10:22 [birtles]
s/leaving anyone/doing anyone/
21:10:48 [birtles]
... it's probably not going to change any implementor's view of whether or not to support the feature
21:11:24 [birtles]
... and while we could technically ship the spec with just 2 implementations, I think it's more useful for the wider community to indicate what's implemented
21:11:34 [birtles]
shepazu: we've done something similar with markers
21:11:42 [birtles]
Tav: the reason for that was timing
21:12:22 [birtles]
shepazu: well the timing for SMIL is similar, when will IE implement it?
21:12:24 [birtles]
Rossen: never
21:12:47 [shepazu]
q+
21:13:19 [birtles]
heycam: if we're going to look into this gap (e.g. animating paths etc.) soon, should we remove this feature now?
21:13:30 [birtles]
... rather than removing it at the LC-stage
21:13:34 [birtles]
... better sooner than later
21:13:52 [birtles]
shepazu: I'd like to point out that this was decided a while ago
21:14:10 [birtles]
... we were going to split out the animation features into a separate spec
21:14:41 [birtles]
... I'm very unhappy about this
21:14:59 [birtles]
... I would like to continue to lobby for element-based animations based on Web Animations [Animation Elements]
21:15:09 [birtles]
... I think this is a feature that people have good reason for wanting
21:15:17 [birtles]
... and I don't think the battleground should be the SVG2 spec
21:15:36 [birtles]
... the battleground, the point of discussion, should be that dedicated spec
21:15:50 [birtles]
Rossen: I agree with shepazu
21:16:03 [birtles]
... we'll be considering all these things for Edge
21:16:26 [birtles]
... but not for "IE", that's why I said IE will never support it
21:17:00 [birtles]
heycam: I really just wanted to raise the topic but it sounds like we are close to a decision
21:17:13 [birtles]
... does anyone object to moving the SMIL chapter to a separate spec?
21:17:34 [birtles]
nikos_: I think, considering that it's likely to be deprecated, it's a smart move and will make the work easier in the future
21:17:43 [AmeliaBR]
Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but there is a complication: What to do about all the element interfaces in SVG 2 that include baseVal/animVal?
21:17:52 [birtles]
RESOLUTION: Move the SVG Animation features to a separate spec
21:18:20 [birtles]
heycam: it's a good question (as raised by AmeliaBR)
21:18:32 [birtles]
... because people do rely on those things existing, but I'm not sure to what level
21:18:37 [birtles]
... we do need to resolve that
21:18:45 [birtles]
... but it's not a gating factor
21:18:59 [birtles]
shepazu: I suggest we remove them as well, but I don't want to have that discussion now
21:19:43 [birtles]
... I wonder if someone could write a polyfill were someone could detect what is meant by those
21:20:21 [birtles]
heycam: so there are 2 things to investigate: (1) animVal/baseVal, (2) looking into the gaps between CSS Animations / SVG Animation
21:20:32 [birtles]
... does anyone want to look into those things?
21:20:48 [birtles]
shepazu: heycam you've looked into (1) before right?
21:21:16 [birtles]
ACTION: heycam to look into animVal/baseVal
21:21:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3785 - Look into animval/baseval [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
21:22:31 [birtles]
shepazu: birtles it seems like you've already started the work, do you have anything for (2)?
21:22:48 [birtles]
birtles: yeah, I wrote up a gap analysis many years ago
21:22:59 [birtles]
... but I think the bigger issue is actually proposing new specs to fill the gaps
21:23:26 [birtles]
ACTION: heycam to coordinate a gap analysis between features in SVG animation and CSS animations/transitions
21:23:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3786 - Coordinate a gap analysis between features in svg animation and css animations/transitions [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
21:23:56 [birtles]
topic: SVG2 issues
21:24:02 [heycam]
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/embedded.html#issue4
21:24:05 [birtles]
heycam: last time we were looking at the embedded content chapter
21:24:28 [birtles]
... defining the interactions between x/y, width/height media fragments on image elements
21:24:50 [birtles]
... because you can use preserveAspectRatio attributes on image element to choose which part of the image to show
21:25:01 [birtles]
... but the #xywh syntax also lets you choose an image
21:25:09 [birtles]
... so we need to decide which order these apply in
21:25:21 [birtles]
... I think #xywh should probably happen afterwards
21:25:29 [birtles]
... but we need some text for that
21:25:38 [birtles]
Tav: if they're doing the same thing, shouldn't one replace the other?
21:25:52 [birtles]
heycam: they do similar things and my mental model of what #xywh does it a bit different
21:26:23 [AmeliaBR]
#xywh is equivalent to viewBox, not preserveAspectRatio
21:26:28 [birtles]
... #xywh can apply to any kind of image, I think it would make sense to apply after doing any SVG-specific processing
21:26:41 [birtles]
... I'm not sure if anyone actually implements this, by the way
21:27:08 [birtles]
... yes, that's right, #xywh is more like viewBox
21:27:21 [birtles]
... I don't think it should replace the viewBox
21:27:34 [birtles]
nikos_: if you did that you'd throw the expected coordinate system out of whack
21:27:46 [birtles]
... you more likely want a window into the existing image
21:27:55 [birtles]
heycam: you just want to choose which subregion to render
21:28:17 [birtles]
... so I think we can resolve that #xywh happens later
21:28:25 [birtles]
... but I wonder if people are actually implementing this?
21:28:55 [birtles]
ACTION: heycam to investigate if #xywh is being implemented
21:28:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3787 - Investigate if #xywh is being implemented [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
21:29:49 [birtles]
heycam: I think scripting is one of the few chapters that we still haven't discussed
21:30:17 [birtles]
... I wonder how close are we to finishing this
21:30:33 [Zakim]
-Tav
21:30:34 [Zakim]
-??P7
21:30:36 [Zakim]
-heycam
21:30:38 [Zakim]
-stakagi
21:30:41 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
21:30:44 [Zakim]
-Rossen
21:30:50 [Zakim]
-birtles
21:30:51 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()4:30PM has ended
21:30:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen, birtles, Tav, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:31:06 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:31:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:31:07 [birtles]
RRSAgent; make minutes public
21:31:18 [birtles]
heycam: thanks!
21:33:18 [pdr__]
birtles, heycam, I wasn't on the call but I read the log about the smil discussion. Would you like me to start a thread somewhere about better coordinating this? The deprecation is just a first step signaling our intent
21:36:18 [heycam]
pdr: I think that'd be good if you posted to the list about your intentions
21:37:04 [heycam]
pdr: though it's likely to turn into a permathread, it would be good to get everyone aware of your plans / reasons
21:37:40 [pdr]
heycam, will do.
21:39:40 [TabAtkins]
Sorry about missing the call, when I did an agenda+; I forgot about my dentist appointment this afternoon.
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