IRC log of svg on 2015-04-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:20:46 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #svg
- 20:20:46 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-svg-irc
- 20:20:48 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 20:20:48 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #svg
- 20:20:50 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
- 20:20:50 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:30PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
- 20:20:51 [trackbot]
- Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
- 20:20:51 [trackbot]
- Date: 30 April 2015
- 20:20:54 [heycam]
- Chair: Cameron
- 20:21:12 [heycam]
- Regrets: Amelia, Brian, Erik
- 20:21:16 [stakagi]
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- 20:21:24 [heycam]
- Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0055.html
- 20:23:20 [heycam]
- Regrets+ Dirk
- 20:29:22 [Zakim]
- GA_SVGWG()4:30PM has now started
- 20:29:29 [Zakim]
- +Doug_Schepers
- 20:29:46 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 20:29:48 [heycam]
- Zakim, [ is me
- 20:29:48 [Zakim]
- +heycam; got it
- 20:29:49 [AmeliaBR]
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- 20:30:57 [Zakim]
- +Thomas_Smailus
- 20:31:42 [smailus]
- smailus has joined #svg
- 20:31:58 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 20:32:12 [stakagi]
- zakim, ??P3 is me
- 20:32:12 [Zakim]
- +stakagi; got it
- 20:32:36 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:33:18 [Rossen]
- zakim, microsoft is me
- 20:33:18 [Zakim]
- +Rossen; got it
- 20:34:20 [smailus]
- I've got to leave in 30 so will only be able to enjoy the first 1/2 the mtg.
- 20:34:43 [heycam]
- Zakim, who is on the call?
- 20:34:43 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen
- 20:35:11 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 20:36:00 [Tav]
- Tav has joined #svg
- 20:36:31 [heycam]
- Zakim, who is on the call?
- 20:36:31 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen, birtles
- 20:36:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
- 20:37:18 [birtles]
- scribenick: birtles
- 20:37:23 [birtles]
- scribe: birtles
- 20:37:31 [birtles]
- topic: telcon day
- 20:37:37 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 20:37:44 [heycam]
- http://doodle.com/8mfbynbh3rkr3myb
- 20:37:55 [birtles]
- heycam: it looks we can't change the day, sorry Brian
- 20:38:01 [birtles]
- ... we'll stick with the current day and time
- 20:38:03 [Tav]
- Zakim, ??P6 is me
- 20:38:03 [Zakim]
- +Tav; got it
- 20:38:18 [birtles]
- topic: blink's intent to deprecate SMIL
- 20:38:19 [heycam]
- https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/5o0yiO440LM
- 20:38:30 [birtles]
- heycam: you would have seen this on the blink-dev mailing list
- 20:38:40 [birtles]
- ... the blink team want to deprecate SMIL (as opposed to remove it)
- 20:38:48 [birtles]
- ... i.e. add warnings when the features are removed
- 20:39:04 [birtles]
- ... and I think they want to evangelize people to use CSS animations etc. instead
- 20:39:15 [birtles]
- ... and I was wondering if people thought we should do something about that in the spec
- 20:39:17 [shepazu]
- q+
- 20:39:25 [birtles]
- ... and how we think it impacts the future of that spec
- 20:39:45 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 20:39:51 [birtles]
- shepazu: if I recall correctly, we already decided to remove SMIL from SVG2 correct?
- 20:39:56 [birtles]
- heycam: no
- 20:40:13 [nikos_]
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- 20:40:30 [birtles]
- shepazu: I thought we had decided to remove it from SVG2 and put it in its own animation-based spec (Animation Elements spec)
- 20:41:29 [birtles]
- heycam: that was the general plan, but since Brian hasn't had time to get that spec it is still in SVG2
- 20:41:53 [birtles]
- Tav: is there anything in SMIL not in Web Animations?
- 20:43:01 [birtles]
- birtles: not really, but Web Animations doesn't have a declarative syntax
- 20:43:37 [birtles]
- ... so you couldn't, for example, animate the points on a path using in a declarative way
- 20:44:02 [birtles]
- ... so you couldn't make an SVG-in-OpenType font where the shape of the glyphs morphs (since you can't run script in that context)
- 20:44:19 [birtles]
- nikos_: were they proposing to remove tear-off support?
- 20:44:42 [birtles]
- (i.e. animVal/baseVal)
- 20:44:43 [birtles]
- heycam: I think that may be the intention
- 20:44:51 [birtles]
- nikos_: I'd like to remove that from WebKit
- 20:46:13 [Zakim]
- +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 20:46:24 [birtles]
- shepazu: how was this brought to the WG?
- 20:46:46 [birtles]
- ... it presents a challenge to standardization if implementors don't keep us in the loop with their intentions
- 20:47:12 [birtles]
- Rossen: I sympathize with what you're saying, but I think choosing to support something or not is ultimately a business decision
- 20:48:18 [birtles]
- ... it was communicated publicly
- 20:48:30 [birtles]
- shepazu: I'm surprised it wasn't communicated to the WG
- 20:50:01 [birtles]
- ... it makes it hard to respond
- 20:50:41 [birtles]
- (some discussion about splitting animation into a separate spec)
- 20:51:12 [birtles]
- Tav: can we get something like declarative animation for paths into a spec other than SMIL?
- 20:51:28 [birtles]
- heycam: I think that's a good question
- 20:51:54 [birtles]
- ... if we're coming to the reality that SMIL might not continue then we need to look at the features not available through CSS
- 20:52:05 [birtles]
- ... Dirk recently worked on CSS Motion which helps with that
- 20:52:20 [birtles]
- ... that probably gives us a good basis for working on path morphing
- 20:52:30 [birtles]
- Tav: I'd be really unhappy to lose that
- 20:53:16 [birtles]
- birtles: yes, it's also hard to animate the points on a path so if we were to work on something new we might be able to fix that as well
- 20:53:50 [birtles]
- heycam: my feeling is that, at a minimum, we should add a notice saying this feature might be deprecated
- 20:53:56 [shepazu]
- q+
- 20:54:06 [birtles]
- ... others seem to be suggesting that we move it out into another spec
- 20:54:13 [birtles]
- Rossen: deprecate on what basis?
- 20:54:14 [AmeliaBR]
- The other key features of SMIL not supported in CSS are (a) multiple independent animations on the same element (with CSS, you need to nest lots of <div> or <g>, each animating a different property)
- 20:55:15 [birtles]
- heycam: given that Blink is not removing the feature, just adding deprecation warnings, then maybe that is the message we should have in the spec as well
- 20:55:16 [AmeliaBR]
- (b) chaining animations (can be done with CSS preprocessors, but it's messy)
- 20:55:38 [birtles]
- ... removing from the spec, so we can acknowledge that it's definitely not going to be in one of the major implementations, might be the better thing to do
- 20:55:57 [AmeliaBR]
- (c) event-driven beyond the CSS pseudoclasses (need to use JavaScript / Web animations)
- 20:55:57 [birtles]
- Rossen: on what basis do we deprecate it? simply because of Chrome?
- 20:56:40 [birtles]
- shepazu: the main reason I think we should remove SMIL is that IE does not implement it and we want interop
- 20:57:19 [birtles]
- ... if there is a further signal from Chrome that they want to remove it then that brings it to the fore
- 20:57:26 [birtles]
- Rossen: so who supports it?
- 20:57:42 [birtles]
- shepazu: Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Presto, Batik?
- 20:57:50 [birtles]
- Rossen: so we'd still have 2 implementations
- 20:58:21 [birtles]
- shepazu: 2 implementations is not enough, we want something that has interoperability
- 20:58:42 [birtles]
- heycam: I thought there was a hope at one point that Microsoft might implement once Web Animations was bedded down
- 20:59:24 [birtles]
- shepazu: SVG2 was our first opportunity to deprecate things
- 20:59:50 [birtles]
- ... when Microsoft said they were not going to implement SVG fonts and SMIL we started the conversation
- 21:00:06 [birtles]
- Rossen: are we considering removing SMIL? If so, I'm in full support
- 21:00:27 [Zakim]
- -Thomas_Smailus
- 21:00:35 [birtles]
- shepazu: I like the feature but I don't think we can tell developers in good conscience that there is interop so I think we should put it in a separate spec
- 21:00:46 [AmeliaBR]
- Could we remove animation elements to a separate spec, without officially deprecating them in SVG 2? Don't want this to hold up recommendation status on the rest of SVG 2.
- 21:01:04 [birtles]
- Tav: Until we have a substitute I don't think we should remove it
- 21:01:19 [birtles]
- ... specifically for the three items (a-c above) AmeliaBR raised
- 21:01:27 [Zakim]
- -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 21:02:24 [shepazu]
- q+
- 21:02:34 [birtles]
- heycam: I think (c) you can listen to mouse events and begin the animations explicitly
- 21:02:55 [birtles]
- and for (b) you can listen to events on the animation and start off other animations
- 21:03:38 [AmeliaBR]
- To confirm: these are limitations of CSS animations. You can do all the above with JavaScript / web animations.
- 21:03:57 [AmeliaBR]
- (but not in SVG-as-image)
- 21:04:27 [birtles]
- birtles: for (b) I think you shouldn't do that, you'll get gaps between the animation
- 21:05:54 [birtles]
- (discussion about (a)--again, you can do with Web Animations, but not in a declarative way)
- 21:06:40 [birtles]
- shepazu: I would suggest that having these features in another module is functionally equivalent to having it in SVG2
- 21:07:06 [birtles]
- ... but if half the browsers are intent on removing this feature it doesn't help us to keep it in SVG2
- 21:08:27 [birtles]
- ... of the four or so rendering agents that are in major use, if only 2 might support this, then we couldn't in good faith but this in SVG2
- 21:08:40 [birtles]
- ... developers need strong interoperability
- 21:08:49 [AmeliaBR]
- s/but this/put this/
- 21:09:12 [birtles]
- nikos_: the pain of supporting the SVG in WebKIt is significant [animVal/baseVal I think]
- 21:09:54 [birtles]
- heycam: deciding about this could be the impetus for us to investigate the remaining gaps between SVG animation and CSS animation
- 21:10:09 [birtles]
- ... I don't think leaving it in the spec is really leaving anyone any favours
- 21:10:22 [birtles]
- s/leaving anyone/doing anyone/
- 21:10:48 [birtles]
- ... it's probably not going to change any implementor's view of whether or not to support the feature
- 21:11:24 [birtles]
- ... and while we could technically ship the spec with just 2 implementations, I think it's more useful for the wider community to indicate what's implemented
- 21:11:34 [birtles]
- shepazu: we've done something similar with markers
- 21:11:42 [birtles]
- Tav: the reason for that was timing
- 21:12:22 [birtles]
- shepazu: well the timing for SMIL is similar, when will IE implement it?
- 21:12:24 [birtles]
- Rossen: never
- 21:12:47 [shepazu]
- q+
- 21:13:19 [birtles]
- heycam: if we're going to look into this gap (e.g. animating paths etc.) soon, should we remove this feature now?
- 21:13:30 [birtles]
- ... rather than removing it at the LC-stage
- 21:13:34 [birtles]
- ... better sooner than later
- 21:13:52 [birtles]
- shepazu: I'd like to point out that this was decided a while ago
- 21:14:10 [birtles]
- ... we were going to split out the animation features into a separate spec
- 21:14:41 [birtles]
- ... I'm very unhappy about this
- 21:14:59 [birtles]
- ... I would like to continue to lobby for element-based animations based on Web Animations [Animation Elements]
- 21:15:09 [birtles]
- ... I think this is a feature that people have good reason for wanting
- 21:15:17 [birtles]
- ... and I don't think the battleground should be the SVG2 spec
- 21:15:36 [birtles]
- ... the battleground, the point of discussion, should be that dedicated spec
- 21:15:50 [birtles]
- Rossen: I agree with shepazu
- 21:16:03 [birtles]
- ... we'll be considering all these things for Edge
- 21:16:26 [birtles]
- ... but not for "IE", that's why I said IE will never support it
- 21:17:00 [birtles]
- heycam: I really just wanted to raise the topic but it sounds like we are close to a decision
- 21:17:13 [birtles]
- ... does anyone object to moving the SMIL chapter to a separate spec?
- 21:17:34 [birtles]
- nikos_: I think, considering that it's likely to be deprecated, it's a smart move and will make the work easier in the future
- 21:17:43 [AmeliaBR]
- Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but there is a complication: What to do about all the element interfaces in SVG 2 that include baseVal/animVal?
- 21:17:52 [birtles]
- RESOLUTION: Move the SVG Animation features to a separate spec
- 21:18:20 [birtles]
- heycam: it's a good question (as raised by AmeliaBR)
- 21:18:32 [birtles]
- ... because people do rely on those things existing, but I'm not sure to what level
- 21:18:37 [birtles]
- ... we do need to resolve that
- 21:18:45 [birtles]
- ... but it's not a gating factor
- 21:18:59 [birtles]
- shepazu: I suggest we remove them as well, but I don't want to have that discussion now
- 21:19:43 [birtles]
- ... I wonder if someone could write a polyfill were someone could detect what is meant by those
- 21:20:21 [birtles]
- heycam: so there are 2 things to investigate: (1) animVal/baseVal, (2) looking into the gaps between CSS Animations / SVG Animation
- 21:20:32 [birtles]
- ... does anyone want to look into those things?
- 21:20:48 [birtles]
- shepazu: heycam you've looked into (1) before right?
- 21:21:16 [birtles]
- ACTION: heycam to look into animVal/baseVal
- 21:21:16 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-3785 - Look into animval/baseval [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
- 21:22:31 [birtles]
- shepazu: birtles it seems like you've already started the work, do you have anything for (2)?
- 21:22:48 [birtles]
- birtles: yeah, I wrote up a gap analysis many years ago
- 21:22:59 [birtles]
- ... but I think the bigger issue is actually proposing new specs to fill the gaps
- 21:23:26 [birtles]
- ACTION: heycam to coordinate a gap analysis between features in SVG animation and CSS animations/transitions
- 21:23:27 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-3786 - Coordinate a gap analysis between features in svg animation and css animations/transitions [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
- 21:23:56 [birtles]
- topic: SVG2 issues
- 21:24:02 [heycam]
- https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/embedded.html#issue4
- 21:24:05 [birtles]
- heycam: last time we were looking at the embedded content chapter
- 21:24:28 [birtles]
- ... defining the interactions between x/y, width/height media fragments on image elements
- 21:24:50 [birtles]
- ... because you can use preserveAspectRatio attributes on image element to choose which part of the image to show
- 21:25:01 [birtles]
- ... but the #xywh syntax also lets you choose an image
- 21:25:09 [birtles]
- ... so we need to decide which order these apply in
- 21:25:21 [birtles]
- ... I think #xywh should probably happen afterwards
- 21:25:29 [birtles]
- ... but we need some text for that
- 21:25:38 [birtles]
- Tav: if they're doing the same thing, shouldn't one replace the other?
- 21:25:52 [birtles]
- heycam: they do similar things and my mental model of what #xywh does it a bit different
- 21:26:23 [AmeliaBR]
- #xywh is equivalent to viewBox, not preserveAspectRatio
- 21:26:28 [birtles]
- ... #xywh can apply to any kind of image, I think it would make sense to apply after doing any SVG-specific processing
- 21:26:41 [birtles]
- ... I'm not sure if anyone actually implements this, by the way
- 21:27:08 [birtles]
- ... yes, that's right, #xywh is more like viewBox
- 21:27:21 [birtles]
- ... I don't think it should replace the viewBox
- 21:27:34 [birtles]
- nikos_: if you did that you'd throw the expected coordinate system out of whack
- 21:27:46 [birtles]
- ... you more likely want a window into the existing image
- 21:27:55 [birtles]
- heycam: you just want to choose which subregion to render
- 21:28:17 [birtles]
- ... so I think we can resolve that #xywh happens later
- 21:28:25 [birtles]
- ... but I wonder if people are actually implementing this?
- 21:28:55 [birtles]
- ACTION: heycam to investigate if #xywh is being implemented
- 21:28:56 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-3787 - Investigate if #xywh is being implemented [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-05-07].
- 21:29:49 [birtles]
- heycam: I think scripting is one of the few chapters that we still haven't discussed
- 21:30:17 [birtles]
- ... I wonder how close are we to finishing this
- 21:30:33 [Zakim]
- -Tav
- 21:30:34 [Zakim]
- -??P7
- 21:30:36 [Zakim]
- -heycam
- 21:30:38 [Zakim]
- -stakagi
- 21:30:41 [Zakim]
- -Doug_Schepers
- 21:30:44 [Zakim]
- -Rossen
- 21:30:50 [Zakim]
- -birtles
- 21:30:51 [Zakim]
- GA_SVGWG()4:30PM has ended
- 21:30:51 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], heycam, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Rossen, birtles, Tav, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 21:31:06 [heycam]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 21:31:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-svg-minutes.html heycam
- 21:31:07 [birtles]
- RRSAgent; make minutes public
- 21:31:18 [birtles]
- heycam: thanks!
- 21:33:18 [pdr__]
- birtles, heycam, I wasn't on the call but I read the log about the smil discussion. Would you like me to start a thread somewhere about better coordinating this? The deprecation is just a first step signaling our intent
- 21:36:18 [heycam]
- pdr: I think that'd be good if you posted to the list about your intentions
- 21:37:04 [heycam]
- pdr: though it's likely to turn into a permathread, it would be good to get everyone aware of your plans / reasons
- 21:37:40 [pdr]
- heycam, will do.
- 21:39:40 [TabAtkins]
- Sorry about missing the call, when I did an agenda+; I forgot about my dentist appointment this afternoon.
- 22:08:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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