16:28:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-irc
16:28:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:28:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:28:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:28:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:28:08 <trackbot> Date: 19 March 2015
16:28:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:28:28 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html
16:29:15 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG()12:30PM has now started
16:29:22 <Zakim> +fesch
16:29:26 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
16:29:42 <MichaelC> zakim, code?
16:29:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 2742 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MichaelC
16:29:42 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:29:45 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 19 March at 16:30Z; Zakim 2742
16:29:54 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:30:04 <Zakim> +??P12
16:31:18 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:31:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see fesch, Jon_Gunderson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper (muted)
16:31:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see fesch, Zakim, RRSAgent, jongund, jamesn, newtron, LJWatson, ed, MichaelC, MarkS, janina, joanie, trackbot
16:31:28 <janina> zakim, call janina-mobile
16:31:28 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
16:31:30 <Zakim> +Janina
16:31:37 <MichaelC> ack me
16:31:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:32:08 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:32:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:32:17 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:32:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:33:19 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:33:28 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:28 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:33:37 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:37 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:34:18 <MichaelC> ack me
16:34:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html
16:35:17 <MichaelC> ack me
16:35:25 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:35:46 <MichaelC> topic: HTML AAM
16:36:06 <MichaelC> followed up with HTML A11Y TF from our discussion last week
16:36:29 <MichaelC> identified many points of documented joint dependency, so we´re ok on that front
16:36:45 <MichaelC> need to figure out who will stay on top of filing bugs
16:36:51 <MichaelC> ack s/followed/js: followed/
16:36:54 <MichaelC> rs: we can take turns
16:37:01 <MichaelC> I don´t usually look at FPWD
16:37:13 <MichaelC> but for this one, we need to both here in ARIA, and in the AAPI group
16:37:50 <MichaelC> js: ARIA in HTML
16:39:21 <MichaelC> rs: for HTML to exit CR, will they be required to meet the mapping guide?
16:39:22 <MichaelC> ack me
16:39:25 <janina> http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/master/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=publi
16:39:28 <MichaelC> js: not sure if that´s established
16:39:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://specs.webplatform.org/html-aria/webspecs/master/
16:39:58 <Zakim> +James_Craig
16:40:06 <MichaelC> mc: for ARIA, we used mappings to define testability of the spec
16:40:16 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
16:40:16 <MichaelC> we could offer the mappings as a way of testing part of the HTML spec
16:40:27 <MichaelC> don´t know if we would say it must be tested in and of itself
16:41:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/master/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=public-html
16:41:08 <MichaelC> <scrambling about for the right URI>
16:41:16 <MichaelC> js: HTML intends to retire editors´ drafts
16:41:21 <MichaelC> instead, publish daily to TR
16:41:36 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:41:47 <MichaelC> rs: still, let´s use the above rawgit
16:42:00 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
16:42:01 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
16:42:01 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
16:42:45 <MichaelC> clown: is that URI frozen?
16:42:57 <Zakim> +Matt_King
16:43:06 <MichaelC> mc: no, unless there is a specific commit in the URI, that can change at any time
16:43:19 <MichaelC> note that´s not a WD, it´s just formatted as if it were
16:43:42 <MichaelC> clown: think a CfC should be done on a branch that won´t have non-editorial changes
16:44:39 <MichaelC> mc: I usually do that, but I don´t have hands on every CfC
16:44:49 <MichaelC> we could / should make this our procedure across the board
16:44:57 <MichaelC> could also ask HTML to do so, don´t know if they want to
16:45:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joseph Review and provide feedback to Steve on ARIA in HTML
16:45:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1598 - Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-03-26].
16:46:18 <MichaelC> http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/d9d5547ff647268ad6ab2497eb5fa443b2032f31/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=public-html
16:46:30 <MichaelC> <^ frozen version of the same doc>
16:46:54 <MichaelC> action-1598: ARIA in HTML http://rawgit.com/webspecs/html-aria/d9d5547ff647268ad6ab2497eb5fa443b2032f31/index.src.html?specStatus=FPWD;publishDate=2015-03-11;wg=HTML%20Working%20Group;wgURI=http://www.w3.org/html/wg/;wgPublicList=public-html
16:46:54 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1598 Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html.
16:47:10 <MichaelC> <where to file bugs?>
16:47:27 <MichaelC> jc: W3C bug tracker, HTML product, some component, should auto assign to Steve
16:48:59 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Using%20ARIA%20in%20HTML&list_id=53494&product=HTML%20WG&resolution=---
16:50:20 <MichaelC> <struggles to find component, looking at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG>
16:50:49 <clown> action-1598?
16:50:49 <trackbot> action-1598 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Review and provide feedback to steve on aria in html -- due 2015-05-21 -- OPEN
16:50:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1598
16:51:01 <MichaelC> js: confused, the document referenced by the URI above is a different document than the one we´re considering
16:51:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://github.com/webspecs/html-aria/issues
16:51:55 <MichaelC> rs: Steve wants bugs in GitHub issues ^
16:52:31 <MichaelC> jg: should this include only ARIA 1.0, or also ARIA 1.1?
16:52:48 <MichaelC> js: ARIA 1.1, even though the doc itself is a 1.0
16:53:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0069.html
16:54:23 <MichaelC> topic: Action 1581 Create a proposal for a panel role
16:54:28 <MichaelC> jd: went down a rabbit hole
16:54:35 <MichaelC> have more questions than answers
16:54:37 <MichaelC> but working on it
16:54:54 <MichaelC> have posed questions by email, can discuss here if people have thoughts
16:55:02 <MichaelC> gaps, user agent normative statements, etc.
16:55:35 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:59:00 <MichaelC> some of this is straightforward, other more meaty
16:59:05 <MichaelC> topic: Table grid related actions
16:59:13 <MichaelC> action-1395?
16:59:13 <trackbot> action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
16:59:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
16:59:21 <MichaelC> action-1293?
16:59:21 <trackbot> action-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
16:59:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
16:59:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0068.html
16:59:42 <MichaelC> action-1403?
16:59:42 <trackbot> action-1403 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table/cell roles, rowspan/colspan attrs, related taxonomy changes, and suggestions for html mapping document -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
16:59:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1403
16:59:56 <MichaelC> jd: working on that stuff
17:00:17 <MichaelC> have been having list discussion
17:00:37 <MichaelC> everyone agreed should be rowcount, rowindex, etc., instead of rcount, rindex
17:00:45 <MichaelC> rs: people want to type all that extra?
17:01:01 <MichaelC> jc: mostly won´t be typed by humans
17:01:20 <MichaelC> where there is manual typing, what we lose in brevity we gain in clarity
17:01:24 <MichaelC> rs: worth the extra bytes?
17:01:30 <MichaelC> could get large
17:01:46 <MichaelC> jc: if we really wanted to minimize download we´d go to rc and ri and be even more obfusticated
17:01:53 <MichaelC> jd: don´t think it´s as large as it seems
17:02:12 <MichaelC> rs: was just trying to save file size, but ok if you all prefer this
17:02:22 <MichaelC> I have gotten feedback about overly long attributes
17:02:26 <MichaelC> jd: just 2 extra characters
17:02:37 <MichaelC> I went through many mailing lists to determine a consensus
17:03:08 <MichaelC> jd: Dominic said there are cases where aria-rowcount needs to be on each cell
17:03:12 <MichaelC> I asked what those use cases are
17:03:18 <MichaelC> I think it should be on the table
17:03:25 <MichaelC> same for colcount
17:03:51 <MichaelC> mk: these counts are so you don´t have to have entire table in DOM?
17:03:53 <MichaelC> they never change?
17:03:57 <MichaelC> clown: could change if the underlying data changes
17:03:58 <janina> zakim, mute me
17:03:58 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
17:04:10 <MichaelC> jc: treegrids with expanded rows
17:05:17 <MichaelC> DOM parents could be 2 levels up
17:05:25 <MichaelC> not always available
17:05:36 <MichaelC> we could make these optionally on the container
17:05:52 <MichaelC> but need to make available for the edge case
17:06:03 <MichaelC> mk: edge case doesn´t require at cell level, but at row level
17:06:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:06:07 <clown> s/could change if the underlying data changes/could change if the underlying data set changes on the server/
17:06:16 <MichaelC> jc: there could be a pivot table
17:06:26 <MichaelC> in which it´s on the other axis
17:06:48 <MichaelC> jd: say whole table is visible, but only some on screen
17:07:00 <MichaelC> if it has 200 rows, but 50 on screen
17:07:04 <MichaelC> rowcount is 200?
17:07:05 <MichaelC> rs: yes
17:07:11 <MichaelC> jd: why does that need to be on each row?
17:07:31 <MichaelC> rs: do you want to make AT go up to top of table?
17:07:47 <MichaelC> jd: the mapping spec could decree that it be exposed as needed
17:07:54 <MichaelC> but why does *author* need to put it in 200 times?
17:08:31 <MichaelC> rs: one major browser requires AT to go into DOM
17:09:04 <MichaelC> jc: for me the reason is, say you have a very large data set with collapsed rows etc.
17:09:25 <MichaelC> mk: @@
17:09:30 <MichaelC> cs: IE6 is also an edge case ;)
17:09:51 <MichaelC> mk: @@
17:09:53 <MichaelC> jc: usually you wouldn´t have to do that
17:10:04 <MichaelC> jc: not too expensive to walk up a single ancestor chain
17:10:13 <MichaelC> cs: but it´s less expensive than @@
17:10:15 <MichaelC> mk: @@
17:10:34 <MichaelC> jd: so for now, putting it on the table / container that holds the rows
17:10:46 <MichaelC> jc: either table or rowgroup
17:10:59 <MichaelC> rs: IE users might not benefit from that
17:11:17 <MichaelC> cs: we don´t need to optimize for an unsupported 15 year old browser
17:11:22 <clown> <div role="table" aria-rowcount="5000">  or <div role="rowgroup" aria-rowcount="5000">
17:11:29 <MichaelC> rs: IE 11 will still ship
17:11:36 <MichaelC> AT vendors will need to rewrite their code
17:11:42 <MichaelC> cs: as we´ve been asking for 10 years
17:11:52 <MichaelC> rs: with our clients, some have just now moved to IE 8
17:12:02 <MichaelC> they demand that our products work with the old tech
17:12:08 <MichaelC> they don´t care about the shiny new thing
17:12:17 <MichaelC> mk: so put on table with option of row
17:12:28 <MichaelC> allows authors to do that if they decide they need to
17:12:36 <MichaelC> cs: <talked over again>
17:12:52 <MichaelC> js: trying to put a plan for authors that will work
17:12:57 <MichaelC> we need a sit-down with the AT developers
17:13:00 <MichaelC> cs: yes
17:13:06 <MichaelC> we´re working on that
17:13:12 <MichaelC> jc: sometimes a stake in the ground is needed
17:13:24 <MichaelC> cs: we´ve been warning them 10 years they need to catch up
17:13:35 <MichaelC> rs: let´s see what we can do to get them moving
17:13:39 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:13:42 <MichaelC> I´ll do whatever it takes
17:13:59 <MichaelC> meanwhile, seems like we have a vehicle to make them not look so far
17:14:27 <MichaelC> so JD, let´s put in both places
17:14:30 <MichaelC> jd: will do
17:14:46 <MichaelC> same question applies to colcount, will take similar approach
17:15:05 <MichaelC> though different for cols because they don´t have same parent container as rows
17:15:31 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:16:30 <MichaelC> jd: another question - does guidance about handling rowcount belong in ARIA spec or mappings?
17:16:46 <MichaelC> rs: put in ARIA so we wouldn´t forget about it
17:16:56 <MichaelC> jd: think Joseph and I will be sure to not forget :)
17:17:04 <MichaelC> rs: author will probably not look at mappings spec
17:17:15 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-setsize
17:17:19 <MichaelC> for setsize etc. we mention it´s automatically computed
17:17:30 <MichaelC> jd: yes, but that´s because author can omit if the computation will work
17:18:08 <MichaelC> but for rowcount, you want UA to apply to all descendant cells?
17:18:32 <MichaelC> my proposed wording is ¨expose in way platform expects it¨
17:18:45 <MichaelC> which varies by platform, not always defined on cells
17:18:57 <MichaelC> think this is mapping detail, not ARIA
17:19:15 <MichaelC> rs: that was placeholder to be sure it was covered, since I wasn´t addressing mapping spec separately
17:19:20 <MichaelC> do think @@ needs to stay there
17:19:25 <MichaelC> jd: thinks I´ve preserved that
17:19:34 <clown> If all items in a set are present in the document structure, it is not necessary to set this property, as the http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#dfn-user-agent can automatically calculate the set size and position for each item.
17:19:51 <MichaelC> clown: ^ for aria-setsize
17:20:04 <MichaelC> rs: if we have something like that, it´s fine
17:20:11 <joanie> If all of the columns are present in the document structure, it is not necessary to set this attribute as the user agent can automatically calculate the column index of each cell or gridcell. However, if only a portion of the columns is present in the document structure at a given moment, this property is needed to provide an explicit indication of the column of each cell or gridcell with respect to the full table.
17:20:19 <MichaelC> jd: ^ is what I did
17:20:40 <MichaelC> took out some UA MUST from the ARIA spec
17:23:08 <MichaelC> rs: how about you put all this in a branch for us to review
17:23:14 <MichaelC> jd: <apoplectic>
17:23:20 <MichaelC> many questions being answered now
17:23:29 <clown> If all of the columns are present in the DOM, it is not necessary to set this attribute as the user agent can automatically calculate the column index of each cell or gridcell. However, if only a portion of the columns is present in the document structure at a given moment, this property is needed to provide an explicit indication of the column index of each cell or gridcell with respect to the full table.
17:23:31 <MichaelC> hadn´t done until now because of too many open questions
17:24:11 <MichaelC> jd: another was, could colindex be implied, not required on every cell?
17:24:21 <MichaelC> if there are no gaps, it can just increment for each col
17:24:33 <MichaelC> but what are situations where there can be gaps?
17:24:45 <MichaelC> so what are situations where you could leave index out?
17:25:02 <MichaelC> mk: say some columns are hiddne
17:25:07 <MichaelC> s/hiddne/hidden/
17:25:25 <MichaelC> rs: do you skip over them?
17:25:29 <MichaelC> mk: like you see in Excel
17:25:57 <MichaelC> if you scroll way right, header column may still display but ones in between could be hidden
17:26:11 <MichaelC> jd: posted example of hiding a col in Google docs
17:26:20 <MichaelC> clown asked if it´s in DOM
17:26:36 <MichaelC> was looking, can´t seem to find the right part of the DOM to look
17:26:49 <MichaelC> so still open question, do we allow gaps or not?
17:26:58 <MichaelC> do authors have option of not writing all colindices, or not?
17:27:09 <MichaelC> rs: hidden presumably mean can be expanded?
17:27:23 <MichaelC> jd: of course
17:27:53 <MichaelC> clown: I wasn´t thinking about hidden cols when I brought up question on mailing list
17:28:04 <MichaelC> I was thinking about when selected rows are put in the DOM for some reason
17:28:17 <MichaelC> for setsize etc. that wasn´t a consideration
17:28:23 <MichaelC> but is this a situation?
17:28:54 <MichaelC> rs: if they´re hidden but in DOM, it´s different from not loading into DOM
17:29:08 <MichaelC> hidden should mean user can choose to expand
17:29:40 <joanie>    <div role="row">
17:29:40 <joanie>      <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="3">Jane</span>
17:29:40 <joanie>      <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="4">Jones</span>
17:29:40 <joanie>      <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="5">Acme, Inc.</span>
17:29:40 <joanie>      <span role="gridcell" aria-colindex="9">555-1234</span>
17:29:42 <joanie>    </div>
17:29:55 <MichaelC> jd: ^ is that valid, or not?
17:30:14 <MichaelC> cols 6, 7, 8 are hidden
17:30:20 <MichaelC> clown: then they´re in the DOM
17:30:25 <MichaelC> jd: so that would never happen
17:30:57 <MichaelC> clown: that was my question, can this happen? can webapp get specific columns, or must there always be a contiguous set?
17:31:23 <MichaelC> jd: if they´re not there because author has chosen to hid
17:31:26 <MichaelC> s/hid/hide/
17:31:50 <MichaelC> clown: in past, if you picked a subset, you still always got a contiguous subset
17:32:11 <MichaelC> do we continue that, or anticipate that non-contiguous set?
17:32:18 <MichaelC> rs: web author knows more about their app than we do
17:32:23 <MichaelC> so they should override
17:32:39 <MichaelC> clown: in which case colindex required on ever cell
17:33:07 <MichaelC> s/ever/every/
17:33:17 <MichaelC> haven´t anticipated with setsize, posinset
17:33:22 <MichaelC> we might need to tweak those also
17:33:53 <MichaelC> mc: require on all cells, or just allow for this use case?
17:34:00 <MichaelC> clown: if set is contiguous, only needed on row
17:34:07 <MichaelC> but if non-contiguous, need on every cell
17:34:10 <MichaelC> same for rowindex
17:34:13 <MichaelC> jd: ok
17:34:25 <MichaelC> now on to rowspan / colspan
17:34:46 <MichaelC> could have different colindex in different rows because of spanning
17:34:52 <MichaelC> does author need to put colindex everywhere here too?
17:35:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:35:25 <MichaelC> I really think colindex needed on each cell, for reasons like this
17:35:31 <MichaelC> rs: unless it´s computed
17:36:45 <MichaelC> clown: @@
17:36:52 <MichaelC> jd: with tables, if things broken in code, table visually looks wrong
17:37:13 <MichaelC> clown: if author can get it right, allow them to put the indices where it´s implied
17:37:18 <MichaelC> but otherwise put everywhere
17:37:32 <MichaelC> jd: but they´ll all think they did it right, when they didn´t
17:38:03 <MichaelC> so I propose we start with ¨authors must provide everywhere¨ and see if complaints raised during wide review of spec
17:38:25 <MichaelC> mk: @@
17:38:28 <MichaelC> jd: brilliant
17:38:43 <MichaelC> I´ll write that down (so hopefully it´s ok that the scribe missed)
17:39:21 <MichaelC> rs: if you have colindex with colspan, colindex is start of colspan
17:39:33 <MichaelC> jd: plan to be very explicit about that stuff
17:40:49 <MichaelC> s/@@/if author chooses to put index value on one cell on a row, they must put it on all cells in the row; there is no implied incrementing; if they put it on the row, it can be implied (propagated by UA for all cells in the row); if they put it on one row, they have to put it on all rows/
17:41:05 <MichaelC> s/ (so hopefully it´s ok that the scribe missed)//
17:41:16 <MichaelC> rs: want to minimize author MUST
17:41:26 <MichaelC> clown: JG can put in conformance checking tools
17:41:28 <MichaelC> jg: sure
17:41:56 <MichaelC> jd: some examples have HTML tables as ARIA grids
17:42:03 <MichaelC> others divs as ARIA grids
17:42:15 <MichaelC> with divs you have to be pretty explicit with your aria
17:42:45 <MichaelC> but with tables, it should be ok to omit certain ARIA properties if the native HTML one is correct
17:42:57 <MichaelC> jc: yes, and you´re supposed to use native semantics where available and not override with ARIA
17:43:04 <MichaelC> definitely applies here
17:43:14 <MichaelC> jd: ok, now have enough to put together a proposal for wordsmithing
17:44:12 <MichaelC> topic: Action 1349 Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder
17:44:14 <MichaelC> action-1349?
17:44:15 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
17:44:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
17:44:21 <MichaelC> jd: awaiting reply to my proposal
17:44:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
17:44:33 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
17:46:58 <MichaelC> rs: maybe a different thing for the value
17:47:22 <MichaelC> jc: nearly used in input textarea and contenteditable
17:47:31 <MichaelC> using custom placeholders because they want different visual behavior
17:47:42 <MichaelC> e.g., a div that hovers over top
17:48:01 <MichaelC> that looks similar, but behaves differently for AT user
17:48:05 <MichaelC> not sure we need value back in
17:48:17 <MichaelC> most of the time, aria-placeholder would be used instead of @placeholder
17:48:26 <MichaelC> do need to make sure ARIA version allowed to override
17:48:54 <MichaelC> jd: is this just a terminology confusion since ¨value¨ has specific meaning?
17:49:06 <MichaelC> rs: something about control contains no text, or content...
17:49:29 <MichaelC> agree we need to be able to override
17:49:34 <MichaelC> clown: you shouldn´t have both
17:49:42 <MichaelC> rs: but if you do, ARIA needs to win
17:49:52 <MichaelC> mk: don´t we usually specify the opposite?
17:50:06 <MichaelC> e.g., for tables
17:50:18 <MichaelC> clown: on table, if you have rowspan and aria-rowspan, rowspan wins
17:50:25 <MichaelC> here, we say aria-placeholder wins over placeholder
17:50:34 <MichaelC> jc: this is like aria-label overriding @alt
17:50:50 <MichaelC> think there is action to add placeholder computation to the text computation
17:51:02 <MichaelC> so this isn´t just a regular attribute, it´s part of computed value
17:51:14 <MichaelC> rs: so we need to bring this to Steve´s attention
17:52:01 <MichaelC> jd: ok, I´m gonna start using ¨text for content¨ instead of ¨value¨
17:52:14 <MichaelC> should we add notes about what wins, or author shouldn´t do both?
17:52:35 <MichaelC> if author using native, they shouldn´t use the ARIA one?
17:53:10 <MichaelC> jg: what does placeholder do?
17:53:18 <MichaelC> clown: hint as to what author should provide
17:53:29 <MichaelC> jg: do you still also need aria-label?
17:53:31 <MichaelC> various: yes
17:53:43 <MichaelC> jg: what if it´s the same
17:53:43 <MichaelC> clown: that would be dumb
17:53:50 <MichaelC> jg: but that´s a common pattern
17:54:07 <MichaelC> so, intent of aria-placeholder is a hint, not labeling
17:54:34 <MichaelC> but in practice, people mix those up
17:55:03 <MichaelC> jd: so, do we need to clarify native vs ARIA?
17:55:19 <MichaelC> clown: we do elsewhere, such as aria-label
17:55:24 <MichaelC> jd: ok, will look at that
17:56:49 <janina> zakim, unmute me
17:56:49 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
17:56:51 <MichaelC> clown: so need to define AAPI mappings?
17:57:05 <MichaelC> would like to define a ¨placeholder¨ property and let AT sort
17:57:57 <MichaelC> is it the browser´s job to put placeholder in the name, or AT´s job to fetch it?
17:58:06 <MichaelC> rs: if you have text box with title and placeholder, which wins?
17:58:08 <MichaelC> jd: title
17:59:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> The placeholder attribute represents a short hint (a word or short phrase) intended to aid the user with data entry when the control has no value. A hint could be a sample value or a brief description of the expected format. The attribute, if specified, must have a value that contains no "LF" (U+000A) or "CR" (U+000D) characters.
17:59:55 <MichaelC> clown: HTML says use placeholder as last resort
17:59:56 <Zakim> -James_Craig
18:02:07 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
18:02:07 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been fesch, Jon_Gunderson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig, Bryan_Garaventa,
18:02:10 <Zakim> ... Matt_King, Cynthia_Shelly
18:02:10 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:02:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
18:02:45 <Zakim> -fesch
18:03:36 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#input-type-text-input-type-password-input-type-search-input-type-tel-input-type-email-input-type-url-and-textarea-element-accessible-name-calculation
18:04:04 <janina> FYI: We have a CFC to publish FPWD of HTML-AAM, please respond!
18:04:05 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0112.html
18:04:49 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:09:19 <jongund> got to go
18:09:24 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:09:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:10:24 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:11:31 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:11:33 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:11:34 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:11:38 <janina> zakim, drop janina
18:11:38 <Zakim> Janina is being disconnected
18:11:40 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:11:40 <Zakim> -Janina
18:11:42 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:11:43 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG()12:30PM has ended
18:11:43 <Zakim> Attendees were fesch, Jon_Gunderson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, Cynthia_Shelly
18:44:29 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 26 March at 16:30; Zakim 2742#
20:07:04 <janina> janina has joined #aria
20:10:15 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
20:21:40 <clown> clown has joined #aria
20:30:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
21:03:23 <clown> clown has left #aria
21:08:06 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
22:22:01 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
23:00:02 <jcraig_> jcraig_ has joined #aria
23:46:26 <janina> janina has joined #aria
23:54:08 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria