14:53:12 RRSAgent has joined #dap 14:53:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-irc 14:53:14 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:53:14 Zakim has joined #dap 14:53:16 Zakim, this will be DAP 14:53:16 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:17 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 14:53:17 Date: 19 February 2015 14:53:55 Agenda:https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html 14:54:01 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html 14:54:13 fjh has changed the topic to: agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html dap 3279 14:54:40 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 14:54:51 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 14:55:10 Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements 14:58:18 gmandyam has joined #dap 14:59:28 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 14:59:35 +gmandyam 14:59:43 +[IPcaller] 14:59:44 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:59:45 +fjh; got it 14:59:59 + +7.831.233.aaaa 15:00:12 Present+ Giri_Mandyam 15:00:22 +??P11 15:00:23 zakim, where is +7.831 15:00:23 fjh, I do not see a party named 'where'. If you meant to ask a question you need to add '?' 15:00:24 Zakim, ??P11 is me 15:00:26 +dom; got it 15:00:29 Zakim, +7.831.233.aaaa is me 15:00:29 +Andrey_Logvinov; got it 15:00:57 Present+ Andrey_Logvinov, Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:03:10 ScribeNick: fjh 15:03:14 zakim, who is here? 15:03:14 On the phone I see gmandyam, fjh, Andrey_Logvinov, dom 15:03:14 anssik has joined #dap 15:03:16 On IRC I see gmandyam, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Andrey_Logvinov, mats, dom, richt, Josh_Soref, tobie, slightlyoff, mounir, trackbot 15:03:29 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 15:03:40 ScribeNick: dom 15:04:07 Welcome Dongseong, Intel https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0007.html 15:04:36 FJH: Andrey, do you want to introduce yourself quickly to the group as a recent participant? 15:04:52 Andrey: I'm one of the editors of the wake lock api 15:04:55 ... we're interested in developing other APIs for the Web platform 15:04:58 +??P22 15:05:00 FJH: which other APIs? 15:05:03 zakim, ??P22 is me 15:05:04 +anssik; got it 15:05:23 Andrey: another we're developing is around CPU consumption and attribution to a given Web site 15:05:29 ... how much a given Web site consumes CPU 15:05:39 ... on the client 15:05:54 FJH: is that something you would like to add to the charter? is there a draft? 15:06:02 Andrey: I'll give you a link 15:06:47 FJH: Dongseong from Intel joined us recently — anssi, do you know of his interests? 15:07:00 Anssi: mostly on media capture (esp. depth stream) 15:07:09 Media Capture TF 15:07:10 2 FPWDs published - 15:07:11 Screen Capture, http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-screen-capture-20150210/ 15:07:12 Audio Output Devices API http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-audio-output-20150210/ 15:07:12 FJH: two FPWD were published recently by the media capture task force 15:07:13 FPWD CfC completed - Media Capture from DOM Events, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0021.html 15:07:33 FJH: I'll have to cancel one of our scheduled calls on April 2nd 15:07:48 ... I'll update the meeting schedule 15:07:54 Topic: Minutes approval 15:08:03 Approve minutes from 22 January 2015 15:08:04 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/att-0037/minutes-2015-01-22.html 15:08:04 proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 22 January 2015 are approved 15:08:16 RESOLVED: Minutes from 22 January 2015 are approved https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/att-0037/minutes-2015-01-22.html 15:08:27 Topic: VIBRATION API IS a FINE W3C RECOMMENDATION!!!! 15:08:30 Vibration API is W3C Recommendation, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0024.html 15:08:34 FJH: congrats 15:08:51 Toipc: HTML Media Capture 15:08:56 FJH: tests have been updated 15:09:07 Tests updated, please review and run tests; https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0031.html 15:09:08 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0033.html 15:09:09 s/Toipc:/Topic:/ 15:09:22 ... we need help on running and reviewing tests 15:09:35 ... we owe big thanks to Zhiqiang for his work on tests 15:09:52 Anssi: I haven't looked at this yet 15:10:52 ACTION: Dom to review HTML Media Capture tests - due March 12 15:10:52 Created ACTION-731 - Review html media capture tests [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2015-03-12]. 15:10:58 Anssi: I'll review them too as editor 15:11:05 ACTION: Anssi to review html media capture tests 15:11:05 Created ACTION-732 - Review html media capture tests [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2015-02-26]. 15:11:13 Topic: Battery API 15:11:27 The battery test suite has been updated to reflect the latest spec at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues?q=label%3Abattery-status+is%3Aclosed 15:11:28 You can try again the updated tests at http://www.w3c-test.org/battery-status/ 15:11:28 See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0029.html 15:11:34 FJH: Zhiqiang has updated the test suite for battery 15:11:41 Chrome doesn't support chargingTime and dischargingTime attributes. Issue with test report generation. 15:11:42 See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0030.html 15:11:54 ... there is a chrome issue about chargingTime/dischargingTime 15:11:56 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0036.html 15:12:28 q+ to talk about WebIDL impl bugs and Rec track stages 15:12:53 Anssi: there are a idlharness-based tests that fail due to the fact that Chrome doesn't full comply with WebIDL yet 15:13:37 ... apart from that, there is another fail due to a bug in Chrome — that hopefully can be fixed (will double check I understood the test correctly) 15:13:39 ackq+ 15:13:42 q+ 15:13:44 ack dom 15:13:44 dom, you wanted to talk about WebIDL impl bugs and Rec track stages 15:13:48 ... apart from that, we have a conforming impl 15:14:21 dom: yes, webidl support is an issue. do you think we can expect a webidl fix in the short term or at all 15:14:33 anssik: latest activity was an hour ago, so seems to be in progress 15:15:06 anssik: there were some performance regressions so it might take more time even though goal is to get fix in 15:15:27 anssi: search with battery-status in logs and you can see specific fixex 15:15:32 s/fixex/fixes/ 15:15:41 s/anssi/anssik/ 15:15:56 anssik: believe high on projects agenda given people involved 15:16:26 dom: good, so regarding REC track, two options assuming Firefox updated, could wait till bug is solved and tests pass 15:17:03 dom: or we give director note that this is well known issue with webidl and chrome and should not impact how this spec is used and interpreted 15:17:28 dom: if we do later need to degrade dependency on webidl to be syntactic only. Prefer former personally 15:17:42 dom: depends on timing 15:18:05 anssik: agree, lets see whether we can get to two implementations 15:20:12 -anssik 15:20:29 +??P22 15:20:33 zakim, ??P22 is me 15:20:33 +anssik; got it 15:20:41 FJH: this is a question of timing 15:21:02 ... ideally, the WebIDL interpretation will be fixed in Chrome 15:21:08 ... when we request to go to PR 15:21:25 ... Anssi reports there has been progress, maybe we'll get good news soon 15:21:33 ... let's revisit this in ~ 6 weeks 15:22:10 Dom: yeah; we need in any case to get the chargingTime bug fixed 15:22:18 ... and get the Firefox implementation to align 15:22:52 Anssi: there has been a new full time dev associated to this bug in Q1, so that's a positive sign 15:23:04 ... but it will land when it is ready, hard to estimate 15:23:11 ... but it's not in the way for us now 15:24:06 fjh: summary of webidl issue is that specs that use it specify properties that can be supported in an implementation allowing the spec to work, but may not be implemented according to the webidl spec. That could be the basis for progressing the work, however it is better to have a conformant webidl implementation and we will first wait for that to be achieved 15:24:44 fjh: is someone helping with Firefox 15:24:54 Anssi: I asked about the implementation in Firefox 15:24:54 anssik: marcos indicated that people are looking at the bug 15:25:01 ... there is some hope that it will move forward 15:25:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:25:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:25:28 ... I'm not sure if the the guy who implemented this works for Mozilla or not 15:25:34 ... hard to say if and when this will happen 15:25:51 fjh: so webidl clearly isn't a very urgent worry 15:25:56 Cordova and Battery API questions, see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/0043.html 15:26:22 fjh: have not had answer to these 15:26:36 dom: had offlist conversation, confirmed concerns 15:27:33 dom: not high priority 15:28:00 dom: can look to see if can get intern to work on this, google internships program might help 15:28:47 dom: if your company is interested in cordova and aligning, there is a work item you could help with; or also you could co-sponsor an intern, please contact Dom if so 15:29:31 Topic: Generic sensor API 15:29:32 github issue discussion reflected on w3c public list, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0018.html 15:29:43 fjh: awaiting update from Tobie 15:29:55 Anssi: I talked to Tobie; I hope he'll get bandwidth on this soonish 15:30:04 ... hopefully within a month or so 15:30:25 ... he's definitely interested in this, but need to be freed from other work before he can start work 15:30:43 ... he sounded like he will report back to the group when he makes progress 15:31:03 ... great idea to enable the notifications of github issues 15:31:08 thanks Dom for creating list notification for github issues 15:31:12 ... we have activated the same features in a couple of groups 15:31:16 ... it has been very helpful 15:31:31 Topic: Wake Lock API 15:31:33 Wake Lock API published as FPWD, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0032.html 15:32:24 dom: auto publish is not activated yet, have to submit 15:32:29 q+ 15:32:36 dom: later will require conforming to pubrules to publish 15:32:55 q- 15:33:00 ack Andrey_Logvinov 15:33:04 ack anssik 15:33:47 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:33:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh 15:34:32 s/ ackq+// 15:35:05 fjh: want to make sure publishing in TR does not happen with checks 15:35:20 dom: checks are done, including validation, pubrules etc. Cannot accidentally post an image of a cat 15:35:38 I would like to see the answer to Anssi’s question as well about local install, etc 15:35:53 -anssik 15:36:12 +??P22 15:36:19 zakim, ??P22 is me 15:36:19 +anssik; got it 15:36:59 https://github.com/w3c/echidna 15:37:14 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2015JanMar/0005.html 15:38:54 Giri: I think the use cases are still unclear [for sensors?] 15:39:21 ... Sensor is much broader than geo where we have found difficult to get vendor support 15:39:28 ... I think use cases would help 15:39:53 q+ 15:40:16 Dom: FWIW, the sensor API is the a generic sensor API 15:40:32 ... it's a pattern that can be re-used across the design of several specific sensor API 15:40:56 Giri: right; the use cases don't have to be specific to a given sensor, but we need justifications for the choices of a given pattern 15:41:02 ... I don't think I have seen that yet 15:41:07 q? 15:41:10 q+ to say my sense is sensor API is layered, common basis, then custom specs above common basis 15:41:23 ... specific examples on how this would be used in specific vertical use cases would help 15:41:53 ack anssik 15:41:58 https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues 15:42:04 ... this would also lead to clear requirements to which we and others can compare developed APIs 15:42:17 anssi: the issues identified in existing APIs have been documented as github issues 15:42:38 ... this effort is an attempt to fix them through a generic pattern 15:42:55 ack fjh 15:42:55 fjh, you wanted to say my sense is sensor API is layered, common basis, then custom specs above common basis 15:43:00 ... I think the work that has been done in issues is the ground work for use cases and requirements 15:43:16 ... I don't know if we want to do the full-blown work of use cases and requirements, or instead a lightweight doc 15:43:51 Giri: I think the question is that we need commitments from vendors that are not involved in the day to day activity 15:44:05 ... right now the only ref for sensors is an outdated DAP draft 15:44:11 ... I've looked at the GH issues 15:44:33 FJH: I think publishing an note with the right content would make it much easier for other people to get familiar with our efforts 15:44:43 ... I think Giri is right we need to make this more usable 15:45:06 Anssi: let's discuss with Tobie how to publish these conclusions once he's around 15:45:20 ... it seems reasonable to publish a state of the art 15:45:33 FJH: I think publishing it as a note gives it more standing and visibility 15:45:36 ... that has merits 15:45:59 Anssi: we might have the use cases and requirements as one section of the overall doc that describes the pattern 15:46:04 ... that sounds like a plan 15:47:04 FJH: Giri is saying we need to get more people on board by stating more clearly what we're trying to do 15:47:06 q+ 15:47:17 Giri: right; and the standing of the document can help 15:47:35 ack anssik 15:47:54 Anssi: Giri, with your Geo chair's hat on, where do we stand on Geo v2, device orientation, and other APIs? 15:47:54 ... These APIs should benefit from this work 15:48:11 Giri: Geo was narrowly scoped to low power geofencing 15:48:24 ... we decided to do that by extending service worker 15:48:53 ... there is a pull request to that end in the github repo waiting for editors action 15:49:02 ... device orientation is a bit more problematic 15:49:27 ... Rich and Tim have done very good work, but we haven't gotten final commitment from the appropriate vendors 15:49:36 q+ to ask about promises 15:49:43 ... Tim has been trying to see how this fits in terms of the sensor api 15:50:04 .... without the commitment of MS and Apple in this group, it's dangerous to try and expand the scope of this work 15:50:19 ... my personal inclination is that device orientation stuff be done in the context of this sensor API 15:50:20 q+ 15:50:33 anssi: thanks, great update giri 15:50:42 ... Rich was active on the generic sensor repo 15:51:06 ... the discussion confirmed he wanted to get the API to evolve toward this generic pattern 15:51:39 -anssik 15:51:42 Giri: device orientation has a legacy issue with a lot of code depending on it right now 15:51:54 ... geofencing doesn't have that issue since it is being built on top of serviceworker 15:52:05 +??P6 15:52:09 s/of service/of the new service/ 15:52:11 ack fjh 15:52:11 fjh, you wanted to ask about promises 15:52:13 zakim, ??P6 is me 15:52:13 +anssik; got it 15:52:21 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/0044.html 15:53:51 q+ 15:54:00 fjh: the promises issue he mentions is not a specific standardization item for this group, yes 15:54:03 Topic: Promises and Cordova 15:54:19 dom: yes though it will depend on the degree of linkage with Cordova 15:54:22 ack anssik 15:54:31 Anssi: Promises are ecmascript 6 features 15:54:43 ... we should not have any worry with them 15:54:49 FJH: it's a timing issue 15:55:02 Anssi: eventually, when webviews get updated to include modern JS engines 15:55:21 ... Webviews are getting better and better 15:55:35 fjh: so issue should solve itself 15:55:45 Anssi: Time will solve this problem 15:56:34 Anssi: back to Geo and sensors 15:56:56 ... Giri, did you say that device orientation or geo v2 could adopt or be influenced by the sensor work 15:57:16 Giri: as far as device orientation is concerned, there are legacy implementations in the browser 15:57:24 ... to significant change the API surface is going to be difficult 15:57:32 s/cant/cantly/ 15:57:43 ... unclear how browser vendors would react to such a change at this point 15:57:54 ... a clean break might be a path of least resistance 15:58:13 ... For geo, the way we get around this has been to move geofencing to out-of-thread service worker 15:58:20 ... leaving the original geo API untouched 15:58:27 ... That's not really an option in device orientation 15:58:54 Thank you dom for scribing 15:59:16 -dom 16:00:03 -gmandyam 16:00:05 -Andrey_Logvinov 16:00:07 -anssik 16:00:25 anssik: request that we include geolocation coordination with generic sensor API as part of that discussion 16:00:47 fjh: when we have report from Tobie we should include related liaison efforts and impacts 16:00:49 thanks all 16:00:52 Topic: Adjourn 16:00:57 rrsagent, generate mintues 16:00:57 I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate mintues', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:01:00 -fjh 16:01:01 UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended 16:01:01 Attendees were gmandyam, fjh, dom, Andrey_Logvinov, anssik 16:01:06 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:01:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh 16:01:39 s/liaison// 16:02:14 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:02:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh 16:04:05 fjh_ has joined #dap 16:04:43 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:04:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh_ 16:04:43 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:04:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh_ 18:16:28 Zakim has left #dap