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<trackbot> Date: 17 February 2015
<Sajjad_Hussain> [GVoice] is Sajjad_Hussain
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> Zakim ??P7 is Marc
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> +Marc_Twagirumukiza
<Sajjad_Hussain> [GVoice] is Sajjad_Hussain
gotomeeting info: https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
Access Code: 157-514-853
Feb 3 minutes: http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20150203
RESOLUTION: Feb 3 minutes unanimously
Feb 10: http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20150210
RESOLUTION: Feb 10 minutes unanimously approved
http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_Ontology_Requirements
RESOLUTION: FHIROntology requirements unanimously approved!
Guoqian: Proposed to use ISO
11179 for common model elements.
... I put together a wiki page, would like your input on the
scope.
... Want to focus on 11179 as core model. Also look into
reference models by CIMI community and CTS2 value set
spec.
... What do you think? Useful that we should work on in this
group?
Tony: Surrounding question: We
need to start to scope the projects in this group accurately,
to avoid wandering.
... We had been focusing on FHIR RDF exchange. Does that
include 11179 focus? Maybe we're starting to have a number of
different projects. Should start to define what the projects
are.
... How to look at the agenda for the mtg? Purely FHIR?
Peter: To do more meaninful or deeper analysis, we'll need entities and roles in acts. CIMI has an alternative ref model, not as good for ref. Should not add another model. Same answer as last week: not part of this project.
Lloyd: Nervous about using 11179
as base model for bindings. It doesn't have extensible valueset
bindings, and no notion of SHOULD or MAY instead of SHALL. Both
of those will make life entertaining in RDF, but we can support
it.
... Also we have a resource in FHIR called DataElement that is
intended to support what's in 11179, so it may be that in
figuring out how to do bindings in FHIR we could also support
bindings from 11179 perspective.
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> +1 for idea of defining what the projects to work on are (practical organization of activities) and may be this can pop up
Lloyd: Not a fan of doing this
through CTS2, because it's evil.
... Merging would be hard.
David: This work group is broader than just FHIR.
Guoqian: If we only focus on FHIR
you would be right, but this group is broader.
... We have a requirement to harmonize data elements from other
models, so 11179 nmight be a good candidate harmonizingn
different models.
David: This group is required by its charter to be data model and vocabulary agnostic.
claude: There are cases where we'll want to link HL7 work with other work. Might make sense for this group to have an important role in that.
lloyd: What about limitations I mentioned -- extensible valueset bindings, and no notion of SHOULD or MAY?
Guoqian: 11179 has a good model
for the valuesets, but not sure it fits well into FHIR.
... But based on our use cases here, use 11179 for metadata
about data elements, then use CTS2 services for valuesets.
Lloyd: Not specific to FHIR, but
the concern is for HL7 in general.
... How to make it work if the ont is based on 11179?
Guoqian: We have some use cases
at Mayo. Harold Solbrig is familiar with 11179 and CTS2
models.
... Ask Harold to join a future call to provide input?
Answers: Claude: yes. Dale: yes. Kerstin: yes.
<scribe> ACTION: David to ask Harold if he can join a future call to discuss 11179 and CTS2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-hcls-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dderour, dhansen2, dhau2, dnewman, dshotton, dwild).
<scribe> ACTION: David to put Lloyd on agenda to discuss valuesets in FHIR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-hcls-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dderour, dhansen2, dhau2, dnewman, dshotton, dwild).
Guoqian: Maybe in a future conference call we can present work at Mayo on data element harmonization
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> we see it
(Tony presents live demo in Protege)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2015Jan/0019.html
Tony: I tried representing an
instance as a class, but that seemed too revolutionary.
... Coding as element, with two forms: Code, System and
Display.
... Coding would be the linkage point for terminologies.
... Substance is subclass of Resource.
... I'm in an ont that has individuals, and it refers back to
FHIR model, different ont is imported, though protege shows
them all.
... Record 01339 is a substance and has a substance type.
... Started looking at the mappings -- how to do uniquness of
the properties?
... I used dot notation: Substance.type points to a Coding
(instance is 1349).
... Display code in the system are still object
properties.
... Code is an instance, and it has a type of FHIR Code.
... Has a code value. Type is a FHIR code primitive.
... Started to run into other interpretatinos of the mapping:
TQ conversion of XML to OWL didn't quite do this, but
primitives in FHIR would map to datatypes in RDF.
... Code primitive is XSD token with length 1.
... Data primitive will look like this. Code primitive would be
a datatype, and we've got some consistency.
... We can get the structural value of the coding instance, and
it maps to the values.
... Also able to apply another type to the Coding -- a semantic
type.
... Structural type was Coding, but semantic type is URI
pointing to the SNOMED code inside SNOMED ont.
... Raises quite a few questions. How to bind instance to types
during transform?
... How do you know it is a substance FHIR resource?
... Binding happens to be the same name as the type, but not
sure it is reliable.
... Leave it to the reasoner to deduce the bindings? Put it on
the Range of the objectProperty? Always bind to that type, so
that the reasoner can figure out the type?
... Returning to the coding, we have an instance of coding,
declared it type FHIRCoding, and it has structural values, and
complex types have values carrying the base data.
... Coding is basically the same as how FHIR uses it.
Lloyd: Looks good. We can't
declare in the instance the type of the coding. We've got one
ont w SNOMED IDs, and a separate FHIR ont with properties of
codings. Need a third ont that goes through SNOMED IDS, that
connects coding values to types.
... Need to do that for whatever ont we want to link in for
validation.
... Strategy makes sense.
... Also, there may be multiple coding systems, via codable
concept.
... Means that instead of setting range for coding, we'll say
that one of the codings must meet the valueset constraints, but
it doesn't matter which one.
Tony: transformations may need to be computational -- not just ont.
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> In snomed a concept can have multiple parent in hierarchy. If you declare an instance being element of a snomed class what will be the relationship between this instance and the parents of this class?
lloyd: Challenge: URLs for IDs
will vary between code systems -- not deterministic.
... Requires knowledge of the coding system.
Guoqian: You want to use SNOMED code to indicate the meaning of FHIR substance?
Tony: No, FHIR substance type:
House Dust.
... Substance.type property said what substance it was.
Guoqian: You put SNOMED code here to indicate the type of link element?
Tony: Yes, this is FHIR
sample.
... you're asking: Does there need to be a binding between the
type substance and the SNOMED class for the substance? That
would not be indicated for the instance, but between the
types.
... Mappings class-class.
... The instance is being mapped to the type -- both to its
structural type, but also to its SNOMED code directly.
... Instance has a type (or types), but the range is defined by
the class above it, that says what the valueset range can
be.
... In SNOMED ont type substance is generic, but it goes down
the hierarchy
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> OK! got it
Marc: When you map an instance to a class, but the class is in a hierarchy, how do you deal with the hierarchy?
Tony: I don't deal with them, but
the classes in SNOMED have multiple parents. I just need to
bind it at the right level.
... Need to get to some heavy duty lifting at this level of
detail.
... Maybe a subgroup to work on this?
claude: Agree. Need to figure out how to structure this weekly meeting, but FHIR ont will require a lot of work. Inevitable that we'll need a separate mtg for that.
Dale: Subgroup notion would be welcome. Procedurally, alignment with existing subgroup would fit the notion of a project.
Tony: Need project scope statement?
Dale: Yes, then passes it up the chain to ensure that all interested parties are informed and can join and avoid duplication of effort.
ADJOURNED
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Type/type/ Succeeded: s/tual/tural/ Succeeded: s/ Ontoloogy/Ontology/ Succeeded: s/unaimously/unanimously/ Succeeded: s/2q+// No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: dbooth Inferring Scribes: dbooth Default Present: Tony, bpech, pknapp, Kerstin_Forsberg, peterhendler, Guoqian, rhausam, DBooth, +1.916.783.aaaa, Marc, +1.310.266.aabb, claude, Lloyd, DNelson, Sajjad_Hussain, [IPcaller] Present: Tony_Mallia Brian_Pech Paul_Knapp Kerstin_Forsberg Peter_Hendler Guoqian_Jiang Rob_Hausam David_Booth Marc_Twagirumukiza Claude_Nanjo Lloyd_McKenzie Dale_Nelson Sajjad_Hussain Found Date: 17 Feb 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-hcls-minutes.html People with action items: david[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]