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<trackbot> Date: 27 January 2015
<scribe> agenda: this
<joanie> wait
<joanie> scribe: joanie
<clown> action-1569?
<trackbot> action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1569
JK: In terms of W3C, I'm on a few
working groups.
... I am also the representative of the New Zealand
government.
... I agreed to help work on the Accessibility API mappings
beginning several years ago.
... I've been working on this document, but my time is
constrained to four hours per week, though I wish it were
more.
... I don't have in depth knowledge of all the Accessibility
APIs, but I'm happy to do whatever editorial and other such
tasks I can.
<clown> issue-540?
<trackbot> issue-540 -- Should the UAIG have a section to describe the API differences -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/540
JK: The mappings for name and
description sort of switched, with description being exposed as
AX Help.
... I raised this issue, and it was explained to me.
... But I'm still wondering if the accessible name,
description, help text should be explained further in the
spec.
... Another issue is how ATK and AT-SPI related to one
another.
... I noticed that a note has been added to the Core Mapping
spec, which is cool.
... I'm wondering what the scope of the note I'm working on
should be.
... I'm working on comparing the APIs and looking for any
potential areas of confusion.
... I'm also thinking there may be additional differences of
interest.
... But for me to work on this, I need more input from people
with knowledge of the specific APIs.
... Some of these differences have to do with how user agents
implement or treat the APIs.
... One example is Mozilla's use of a string valie in VARIANT
in MSAA.
<jkiss> use of a string value in VARIANT
<jkiss> in MSAA
<jkiss> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#use-of-msaa-variant-by-some-user-agents
DB: I'm happy that Jason is looking into this, beyond just the mappings.
JK: I just posted a link to the
section in the Mapping document where this came up.
... Cynthia said Mozilla is doing this to expose information
when it cannot be exposed via other API.
JS: I read they just use the IA2 role now; not accrole.
<davidb> Mozilla bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798492
JK: Another issue is the use of the DOM by ATs.
JS: Certainly true of ChromeVox (use of the DOM).
JK: That's broader than how the
APIs work, however.
... Hearing from others about interesting differences worth
including in a Note would be good.
... My interest is that I rely upon these documents and I
suspect there would be others who look at these documents and
would find it really helpful to have an explanation of the
higher-level differences between these APIs.
JS: Sounds ok to me.
JS: The URL above is in the accessible name calculation document. And the column for AX API is rather lengthy.
JK: I was looking at that. And for ATK/AT-SPI the document suggests that there is not an accessible name property.
JS: My recollection is that you have to call an atk method
atk_object_get_name()
JS: There may be a property there, but you cannot see it.
<jkiss> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkObject--accessible-name
JK: There (above) is the
accessible name property. It's a readwrite property.
... I couldn't find that in AT-SPI
<clown> https://developer.gnome.org/libatspi/2.13/AtspiAccessible.html
JD: I will verify that there is not a property for the name.
JK: Perhaps that's more detailed than is worth it?
JS: That's more of an AT Vendor question. Do you need that level of detail?
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: As an AT developer, I don't go to W3C specs, but I go to the AAPI documentation for that platform.
JK: That makes sense, but it's
still worthwhile to me.
... I am not a browser implementor, nor an AT developer.
... I could just go to all of the AAPI documentation and read
it.
... Or, get a summary of the differences in the W3C
documents.
JD: I was more answering Joseph's
question, "what does an AT vendor need to know"?
... So, keep the audience in mind.
JK: Yes, sure.
... I could draft a section, and include the items I think
belong.
... And then see if others want to add info to that.
... And then bring it back to this group.
JD: I think it's a good
idea.
... I would be happy to read the draft.
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JS: I think the next step is for you to draft it and put it Somewhere(tm).
JK: Where?
... I was thinking of adding it under Section 1.1 which
discusses Accessibility APIs.
... Like under a new 1.1.1. That states there are
differences.
... This would then follow with examples illustrating these
differences.
... I work this up. Should I added it to the latest draft in
github?
JS: I'd prefer you branch, either
according to the action or the issue.
... You decide a branch name based on the issue, action, or
both, to ensure we know what the branch is about.
JK: I'll do that.
<clown> action-842?
<trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2014-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
JS: Cynthia, this action came due
about two weeks ago.
... This is from 2011.
CS: So Michael Cooper and I made
some progrss at TPAC.
... I have a hand-drawn version that needs to be turned into
another format.
... I've not yet had an opportunity to do so.
... Give me to April 1st or the closest to our meeting.
JS: March 31st it is.
CS: I took digital photos too. :)
<clown> action-1104?
<trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
JS: You got some emails about this (Cynthia).
JS: That mapping table I brought up before (URL above), if you look at UIA, there's nothing explaining what you do if the objects are not in the accessibility tree.
CS: This is an ongoing discussion. I need to follow up on this. Please give me two weeks.
JS: February 10th.
JK: You noted that UIA doesn't explain what to do if it's not in the accessibility tree. It seems to me that this is lacking for others as well.
JS: Not for IA2/ATK.
... So IA2 and ATK have both a way to provide the string and to
provide the object.
... UIA doesn't have a means to provide the string.
CS: I'm trying to convince people we need this means.
<clown> action-1546?
<trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
<clown> action-1544?
<trackbot> action-1544 -- Cynthia Shelly to Document rowgroup mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1544
JS: GNOME decided to not expose that role at all.
CS: I think we do something with it.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The current mappings are
above.
... Apple doesn't map it either.
... And IA2 exposes it as role group, and UIA as group.
RS: Firefox put it in there, but
we're not sure why.
... I don't think it's a show stopper, because I don't think
the ATs pay much attention to it.
CS: I haven't had a chance to look. Please give me a week.
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2014-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
CS: This one's harder. Give me four weeks.
JS: It's writing a test case.
CS: It's more than one test case;
it's a bunch of different scenarios.
... I know there are bugs, which is why I made that action in
the first place.
... Four weeks is CSUN, so why don't we make it three.
JS: This is more of an update.
<clown> action-1553?
<trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-searchbox
JS: We discussed this last week.
We have a new role in ARIA: searchbox.
... And we got the mappings for ATK/AT-SPI. And I managed to
change the document to add the role, but only ATK/AT-SPI has a
mapping. I still need them for the other platform mappings for
this role.
<clown> action-1554?
<trackbot> action-1554 -- Cynthia Shelly to Provide UIA mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1554
CS: Give me two weeks so that I
can verify how to map it.
... Is this a landmark?
JS: No, search is a landmark.
RS: This is an entry.
JS: This is why ATK mapped it
this way.
... But as I understand it, they are going to expand their
roles.
RS: The easy way to do this is map it to a text field and then have ATs look at an attribute to see if it's a searchbox.
(Group discusses object attributes)
<clown> action-1553?
<trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-switch
JS: ATK/AT-SPI2 mapped it to toggle button.
RS: I'd do this as an object attribute just like with searchbox.
<clown> action-1563?
<trackbot> action-1563 -- James Craig to Provide AX API mapping for role="switch" -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1563
CS: I'll take a look at this.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
RS: The SVG accessibility
taskforce has gone through this already.
... I think it would be good if this group could look at it as
well.
JS: What sort of time frame?
RS: It's a first working draft. I
don't expect the comments to be thorough.
... If you have anything significant, I'd love to hear
it.
... We want to get this one and the HTML one out in
February.
JK: I think it's possible. I'm
unavailable for a couple of weeks in February, but I think the
HTML document will be ready.
... Some addition fixes to leverage off of the core, similar to
what SVG is doing, might be useful.
JS: I still object to the use of
none.
... SVG animate element, for example.
... Do you mean the actual "none" role, or that there is no
role?
RS: There is a "none" role and a
none (for no role).
... animate doesn't get mapped at all.
JK: It might be mistakenly linked to role="none"
<cyns> have to run to another meeting
JK: Should it say "no role"?
RS: It could, but it is essentially the same.
JS: To me that means it's there for presentation purposes.
JK: To avoid the ambiguity....
RS: But it has the same effect.
(Discussion of validity of mapping it to a pane)
RS: I will raise an issue.
JS: There is a possibility that something with role="none" can gain focus.
RS: But that's an error.
JS: It's an author error to put the presentational role on something which is focusable.
RS: Every single drawing is persistent in memory. Can you imagine if you had an accessible object for every single item? The tree would be huge.
JS: Could an author put a tab index on an SVG element so that an AT could walk through the parts of the diagram?
RS: Yes, but you'd want to put it
on an element.
... It shouldn't be mapped, but if it becomes focusable then
you have to?
JS: Yes.
RS: Then I have to put something
in the spec because it's an error condition.
... I still want this to be none, which means there should be
no mapping.
... I think what we have to do is have rules about mapping
elements with tab index.
... I will make an editorial note.
(Group discusses the specifics)
<clown> <img role="presentaion">
<clown> <img role="presntation" tabindex="0">
JS: the first of the above won't
be mapped; the second will.
... My read is that IF it needs to be in the accessibility
tree, treat it as a pane. Otherwise don't worry about it.
RS: I'm going to make a note and create an issue for my spec.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
JS: The exceptions to not exposing it are described at the URL above.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/the string variant/a string valie in VARIANT in MSAA/ Succeeded: s/element/animate element/ Succeeded: s/role/tab index/ Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Found ScribeNick: clown Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie ScribeNicks: clown, joanie Default Present: Joseph_Scheuhammer, +644462aaaa, +1.416.848.aabb, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, David_Bolter, Jason_Kiss, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cyns Present: Bryan_Garaventa Cynthia_Shelly David_Bolter Jason_Kiss Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer Rich_Schwerdtfeger Found Date: 27 Jan 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-aapi-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]