IRC log of dpub on 2014-12-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:28:09 [RRSAgent]
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15:28:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc
15:28:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:28:11 [Zakim]
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15:28:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
15:28:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
15:28:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:28:14 [trackbot]
Date: 08 December 2014
15:28:49 [ivan]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
15:28:54 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
15:38:18 [ivan]
Regrets: Madi
15:48:20 [ivan]
Regrets+ David_Stroup
15:53:30 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #dpub
15:54:17 [AH_Miller]
AH_Miller has joined #DPUB
15:54:45 [Zakim]
DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:54:50 [clapierre]
clapierre has joined #DPUB
15:54:52 [Zakim]
+George_Kerscher
15:54:53 [Zakim]
+[Safari]
15:55:12 [dkaplan3]
zakim, [Safari] is me
15:55:12 [Zakim]
+dkaplan3; got it
15:55:35 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:55:39 [Zakim]
+clapierre
15:56:21 [Zakim]
+MikeMiller
15:56:31 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #dpub
15:57:48 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:48 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:58:21 [laudrain]
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15:59:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.255.aaaa
15:59:13 [dauwhe]
dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:59:25 [tzviya]
zakim, aaaa is tzviya
15:59:25 [Zakim]
+tzviya; got it
15:59:32 [Zakim]
+Luc
15:59:49 [dauwhe]
Zakim, aaaa has dauwhe
15:59:49 [Zakim]
sorry, dauwhe, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:00:12 [Zakim]
+Markus
16:00:20 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dkaplan3, George_Kerscher, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeMiller, Ivan, tzviya, Luc, Markus
16:00:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dauwhe, laudrain, mgylling, clapierre, AH_Miller, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, fjh, astearns, iank__, liam, rego, mihnea_____, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:00:47 [Vlad]
Vlad has joined #dpub
16:01:14 [Zakim]
+Vlad
16:01:31 [mgylling]
regrets: pkra, david stroup
16:01:59 [bjdmeest]
bjdmeest has joined #dpub
16:02:07 [Zakim]
+[Ugent]
16:02:09 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:02:17 [bjdmeest]
zakim, Ugent is me
16:02:17 [Zakim]
+bjdmeest; got it
16:02:25 [Zakim]
+Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:26 [tmichel]
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16:02:27 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:02:52 [mgylling]
Present+ Avneesh Singh (DAISY)
16:03:12 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:03:12 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Stearns
16:03:22 [Zakim]
+Thierry
16:03:23 [Vlad]
Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect in 1/2 hour
16:03:32 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:03:32 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Vlad
16:03:54 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:03:54 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Thierry
16:04:02 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:04:02 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Luc
16:04:22 [tzviya]
zakim, pick a victim
16:04:22 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dkaplan3
16:04:33 [Bert]
Bert has joined #dpub
16:04:37 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
16:04:39 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:04:51 [Zakim]
+vivien
16:05:14 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we have some new people here today
16:06:07 [Julie]
Julie has joined #dpub
16:06:11 [dauwhe]
George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
16:06:15 [dauwhe]
... working on epub issues
16:06:28 [dauwhe]
Amnish: work for DAISY
16:06:39 [dauwhe]
... also work on EPUB
16:06:43 [mgylling]
s/Amnish/Avneesh/
16:06:53 [tzviya]
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
16:06:54 [dauwhe]
tzviya: review minutes from last week
16:06:59 [dauwhe]
... any comments?
16:07:01 [tzviya]
http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
16:07:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.347.633.aabb
16:07:06 [dauwhe]
... we also had short minutes for the first time
16:07:24 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
16:07:31 [dauwhe]
tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
16:07:51 [ivan]
zakim, aabb is Julie
16:07:51 [Zakim]
+Julie; got it
16:07:53 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
16:08:02 [dauwhe]
mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
16:08:04 [dauwhe]
ivan: yes
16:08:06 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller.a is me
16:08:06 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
16:08:22 [dauwhe]
tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously accept :)
16:08:42 [dauwhe]
tzviya: first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to present to PF
16:08:49 [dauwhe]
... at TPAC we met with PF
16:09:04 [dauwhe]
... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
16:09:14 [dauwhe]
... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
16:09:26 [dauwhe]
... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
16:09:28 [tzviya]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
16:09:41 [dauwhe]
... the goal is to add to this list as needed
16:09:55 [dauwhe]
... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
16:10:07 [dauwhe]
... sorry... document is not yet public
16:11:45 [dauwhe]
... [working on making the document public]
16:13:02 [bjdmeest]
this is the non-edit link (I think) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
16:13:58 [dauwhe]
s/wizzard/wizard/
16:14:08 [dauwhe]
mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
16:14:19 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
16:14:26 [dauwhe]
... some we might want to remove
16:14:34 [dauwhe]
... category may or may not be relevant
16:14:48 [dauwhe]
... we'll need some additional description before presenting to ARIA
16:15:03 [dauwhe]
... and we have a few notes about current relationships with ARIA
16:15:10 [dauwhe]
... for example, around notes/note
16:15:25 [dauwhe]
... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
16:15:35 [dauwhe]
... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
16:15:41 [dauwhe]
... then schedule meeting with PF
16:15:50 [dauwhe]
... try to get this into module of ARIA
16:15:58 [dauwhe]
... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
16:16:04 [tzviya]
q?
16:16:07 [dauwhe]
ivan: still digesting
16:16:31 [dauwhe]
mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this round
16:16:38 [dauwhe]
... we expect to append to it in later cycles
16:16:51 [dauwhe]
... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
16:17:00 [dauwhe]
... lots of terms are still in draft
16:17:08 [dauwhe]
... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
16:17:14 [dauwhe]
... we elected to wait on those
16:17:27 [tzviya]
q?
16:17:33 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
16:17:37 [dauwhe]
mgylling: I think only two
16:17:47 [dauwhe]
tzviya: two or three from the testing section
16:17:51 [dauwhe]
... question and answer
16:18:03 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
16:18:05 [dauwhe]
tzviya: no
16:18:14 [tzviya]
q?
16:18:20 [ivan]
q+
16:18:28 [dauwhe]
mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
16:18:33 [tzviya]
ack ivan
16:19:03 [dauwhe]
ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
16:19:09 [dauwhe]
... if I look at "usage" column
16:19:15 [tzviya]
<dc:source>http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</source>
16:19:24 [dauwhe]
... do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element can be used for that specific value?
16:19:39 [dauwhe]
mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
16:19:43 [dauwhe]
ivan: allowed
16:19:59 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is recommended, not required
16:20:11 [dauwhe]
... we need to ARIA-ify these
16:20:25 [dauwhe]
... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
16:20:52 [dauwhe]
... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each term
16:20:59 [tzviya]
q?
16:21:00 [dauwhe]
ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
16:21:02 [dauwhe]
mgylling: yes
16:21:15 [dauwhe]
... HTML5 may also have restrictions
16:21:26 [dauwhe]
... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
16:21:31 [dauwhe]
... looking for an example now...
16:21:43 [dauwhe]
tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
16:21:53 [dauwhe]
... <dl role="glossary">
16:22:13 [dauwhe]
... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul role="glossary">
16:22:27 [tzviya]
q?
16:22:36 [dauwhe]
ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
16:22:58 [dauwhe]
tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a task force with regular meetings
16:23:15 [dauwhe]
... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to join us
16:23:27 [dauwhe]
George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
16:23:47 [dauwhe]
mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this task force
16:23:55 [dauwhe]
... if we could decide this today it would be good
16:24:13 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
16:24:18 [tzviya]
q?
16:24:23 [dauwhe]
mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
16:24:48 [dauwhe]
ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at OWL-specific things
16:25:39 [dauwhe]
tzviya: I'm happy to help out
16:25:55 [dauwhe]
mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as co-chairs
16:26:09 [dauwhe]
tzviya: and thank you George
16:26:18 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: yes
16:26:18 [ivan]
q+
16:26:34 [dauwhe]
tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task force?
16:26:40 [tzviya]
ack ivan
16:26:55 [dauwhe]
ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing and the road ahead
16:27:04 [dauwhe]
... where are the bottlenecks?
16:27:10 [dauwhe]
tzviya: good question
16:27:18 [dauwhe]
... we were the first big bottleneck
16:27:37 [dauwhe]
... next phase is setting up task force meetings
16:27:42 [dauwhe]
... holidays will complicate that
16:27:52 [dauwhe]
... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
16:28:07 [dauwhe]
mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless and publish this
16:28:20 [dauwhe]
ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these terms
16:28:26 [dauwhe]
... aren't they already there?
16:28:34 [dauwhe]
mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
16:28:43 [Zakim]
-Stearns
16:28:51 [dauwhe]
... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
16:28:59 [dauwhe]
ivan: we do not start from scratch
16:29:11 [dauwhe]
tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
16:29:19 [dauwhe]
ivan: their question will be
16:29:29 [dauwhe]
... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
16:29:44 [dauwhe]
tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF this week
16:29:52 [Vlad]
sorry, have to disconnect now
16:29:57 [Zakim]
-Vlad
16:30:00 [tzviya]
q?
16:30:23 [dauwhe]
tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
16:30:29 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:30:32 [dauwhe]
... want to get it moving this month
16:30:46 [dauwhe]
... we'll have something to present to PF this week
16:30:55 [dauwhe]
... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
16:31:05 [dauwhe]
... but much depends on how PF interprets this
16:31:13 [mgylling]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
16:31:24 [ivan]
Topic: longdesc
16:31:33 [mgylling]
(AC only) https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
16:31:39 [dauwhe]
mgylling: here's the AC review link
16:32:00 [dauwhe]
... we have been reminded that input from the publishing community is desired
16:32:15 [dauwhe]
... so how can we produce a review?
16:33:01 [dauwhe]
... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
16:33:13 [dauwhe]
George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of this
16:34:05 [dauwhe]
... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to comment
16:34:17 [ivan]
q+
16:34:32 [dauwhe]
mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
16:34:58 [dauwhe]
George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the diagrammer", a framework for making images accessible
16:35:14 [mgylling]
s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/
16:35:42 [dauwhe]
... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG, how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just the image?
16:35:48 [dauwhe]
... this is just focused on image
16:35:57 [dauwhe]
... there are other items that need a description
16:36:14 [dauwhe]
... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending on the element? Like canvas...
16:36:16 [dauwhe]
mgylling: right
16:36:49 [dauwhe]
... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at, which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
16:36:58 [dauwhe]
... which is a more generic version of longdesc
16:37:08 [dauwhe]
... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
16:37:22 [dauwhe]
... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
16:37:30 [dauwhe]
George: there's the political aspect
16:37:42 [dauwhe]
... it's been a Herculean effort from them
16:37:59 [dauwhe]
... just trying to get my head around all this
16:38:29 [dauwhe]
mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc is intended to solve problems in the short term
16:38:37 [dauwhe]
... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
16:39:20 [dauwhe]
George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox it's a context menu item
16:39:42 [dauwhe]
... I think the long term goal is good
16:39:46 [clapierre]
q+
16:40:03 [dauwhe]
mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
16:40:06 [tzviya]
q?
16:40:11 [dauwhe]
... which can be used for a11y
16:40:24 [dauwhe]
... with annotations, the pointing description is reversed
16:40:34 [dauwhe]
s/description/direction/
16:40:45 [dauwhe]
... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
16:40:49 [dauwhe]
... that's the end point
16:40:55 [mgylling]
ack ivan
16:40:56 [tzviya]
ack ivan
16:41:08 [dauwhe]
ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of process
16:41:22 [dauwhe]
... George is asking about long term
16:41:37 [dauwhe]
... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can vote on
16:41:51 [dauwhe]
... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
16:42:01 [dauwhe]
... they may decide it's not to be a REC
16:42:13 [dauwhe]
... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments should occur
16:42:25 [dauwhe]
... but we missed the boat
16:43:03 [dauwhe]
... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as there has been controvery
16:43:31 [ivan]
s/controvery/controversy/
16:43:32 [dauwhe]
George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years ago
16:43:40 [mgylling]
ack clapierre
16:43:52 [dauwhe]
clapierre: a couple questions
16:43:58 [clapierre]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html
16:44:07 [dauwhe]
... first, here's Apple's formal objection
16:44:40 [dauwhe]
... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does this work offline
16:44:42 [mgylling]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html
16:45:03 [dauwhe]
q+
16:45:27 [dauwhe]
mgylling: good questions
16:45:42 [dauwhe]
... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm to start into this again
16:45:46 [dauwhe]
... it is what it is
16:46:03 [dauwhe]
... the politics are so involved that technical merit discussions are moot
16:46:11 [dauwhe]
... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
16:46:12 [dauwhe]
q-
16:46:19 [dauwhe]
... but it's not the golden wrench
16:46:25 [mgylling]
q?
16:46:27 [dauwhe]
... it's just one thing in the toolbox
16:46:45 [dauwhe]
clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
16:46:55 [dauwhe]
... affects SVG, STEM...
16:47:11 [dauwhe]
... it was rejected for HTML
16:47:24 [dauwhe]
... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
16:47:56 [dauwhe]
ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
16:48:15 [dauwhe]
... it might be an extension
16:48:44 [dauwhe]
George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of members come out against longdesc
16:48:57 [dauwhe]
... the public would view this as the publishing industry not wanting to support a11y
16:49:04 [dauwhe]
... that would be the appearance of it
16:49:08 [dauwhe]
... that's the wrong message
16:49:22 [dauwhe]
... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
16:49:33 [dauwhe]
... if the group came out against longdesc
16:49:38 [dauwhe]
ivan: I understand
16:49:48 [dauwhe]
... I don't want to evade the issue
16:50:01 [dauwhe]
... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be pro/con
16:50:08 [tzviya]
q+
16:50:11 [dauwhe]
... this is now in the hands of the individual members
16:50:19 [dauwhe]
... it's way too late
16:50:25 [mgylling]
ack tzviya
16:50:32 [dauwhe]
... it's out of the hands of the groups
16:51:13 [dauwhe]
tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the place of DPUB to say how to vote
16:51:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
16:51:32 [dauwhe]
mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
16:52:51 [dauwhe]
... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
16:53:00 [dauwhe]
... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
16:53:19 [dauwhe]
... participation in PF from publishing is low
16:53:31 [dauwhe]
... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
16:53:59 [dauwhe]
George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
16:54:10 [mgylling]
q?
16:54:14 [dauwhe]
... also, the implementations of those features and functions is important
16:54:22 [dauwhe]
... like in Readium
16:54:29 [mgylling]
ack Bill_K
16:54:53 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of implementation
16:55:07 [dauwhe]
mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the provisional rec
16:55:35 [dauwhe]
mgylling: we're poking AC reps...
16:55:54 [dauwhe]
... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a matter of resource assignment
16:56:07 [mgylling]
q?
16:56:09 [dauwhe]
... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved in ARIA
16:56:19 [mgylling]
ack [IPcaller]
16:56:36 [dauwhe]
???: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
16:56:53 [tzviya]
s/???/avnesh
16:56:57 [dauwhe]
mgylling: what would we practically do?
16:57:22 [dauwhe]
mgylling: epub 3.1 already allows aria described-at
16:57:48 [dauwhe]
... we can't easily answer the question
16:58:09 [Bill_Kasdorf]
s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1
16:58:11 [tzviya]
q?
16:58:14 [dauwhe]
... any last questions?
16:58:38 [dauwhe]
mgylling: thanks everyone
16:58:42 [Zakim]
-Markus
16:58:44 [Zakim]
-Luc
16:58:44 [Zakim]
-Bill_Kasdorf
16:58:45 [Zakim]
-Julie
16:58:45 [Zakim]
-Ivan
16:58:45 [Zakim]
-fjh
16:58:46 [Zakim]
-tzviya
16:58:46 [Zakim]
-Stearns
16:58:48 [Zakim]
-MikeMiller
16:58:48 [Zakim]
-bjdmeest
16:58:48 [Zakim]
-clapierre
16:58:49 [Zakim]
-dkaplan3
16:58:49 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
16:58:49 [dauwhe]
all: bye bye bye bye bye
16:58:50 [Zakim]
-George_Kerscher
16:58:51 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:00:12 [clapierre]
clapierre has left #dpub
17:03:05 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
17:03:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:03:05 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeMiller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns, bjdmeest,
17:03:09 [Zakim]
... Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh
17:03:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
17:03:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:03:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items