IRC log of dpub on 2014-09-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:19:57 [RRSAgent]

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14:19:57 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/22-dpub-irc

14:19:59 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:19:59 [Zakim]

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14:20:01 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be dpub

14:20:01 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes

14:20:02 [trackbot]

Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

14:20:02 [trackbot]

Date: 22 September 2014

14:42:50 [pkra]

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14:51:24 [ivan]

Chair: Tzviya

14:52:43 [ivan]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0073.html

14:52:56 [ivan]

ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda for 2014-09-22: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Sep/0073.html

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14:56:27 [Zakim]

DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started

14:56:34 [Zakim]

+clapierre

14:57:00 [Zakim]

+dauwhe

14:57:45 [dkaplan3]

dkaplan3 has joined #dpub

14:57:59 [Zakim]

+duga

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philm has joined #dpub

14:58:23 [mgylling]

mgylling has joined #dpub

14:58:48 [Zakim]

+dkaplan3

14:59:02 [Zakim]

+ +1.212.364.aaaa

14:59:05 [tzviya]

tzviya has joined #DPUB

14:59:18 [philm]

zakim, aaaa is me

14:59:18 [Zakim]

+philm; got it

14:59:26 [Zakim]

+Tzviya

14:59:55 [azaroth]

azaroth has joined #DPUB

15:00:17 [Zakim]

+TimCole

15:00:44 [Nishit_Jain]

Nishit_Jain has joined #dpub

15:00:49 [Zakim]

+azaroth

15:00:57 [murakami]

murakami has joined #dpub

15:01:07 [TimCole]

TimCole has joined #dpub

15:01:11 [Zakim]

+pkra

15:01:29 [Zakim]

+Laura_Fowler

15:01:49 [Zakim]

+Bill_Kasdorf

15:01:56 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-aix

15:01:56 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:01:57 [Zakim]

+Ivan

15:02:27 [david_stroup]

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15:02:28 [PatPagano]

PatPagano has joined #dpub

15:02:29 [ivan]

zakim, who is here?

15:02:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan

15:02:31 [Zakim]

On IRC I see PatPagano, david_stroup, TimCole, murakami, Nishit_Jain, azaroth, tzviya, mgylling, philm, dkaplan3, tmichel, clapierre, brady_duga, pkra, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe,

15:02:31 [Zakim]

... ivan, liam, astearns_, plinss, trackbot

15:02:32 [liza]

liza has joined #dpub

15:02:32 [Bill_Kasdorf]

Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub

15:02:55 [pkra]

should we be worried?

15:02:58 [dauwhe]

Zakim, good job!

15:02:58 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'good job!', dauwhe

15:03:10 [Zakim]

+Liam

15:03:14 [Zakim]

+[Safari]

15:03:16 [fjh]

fjh has joined #dpub

15:03:18 [tzviya]

zakim, pick a victim

15:03:18 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tzviya

15:03:30 [bjdmeest]

bjdmeest has joined #dpub

15:03:32 [Zakim]

+??P9

15:03:34 [tzviya]

zakim, pick a victim

15:03:34 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose philm

15:03:35 [Zakim]

+ +1.585.217.aabb

15:03:41 [liza]

zakim, Safari is me

15:03:41 [Zakim]

+liza; got it

15:03:41 [tmichel]

zakim, ??P9 is me

15:03:43 [Zakim]

+tmichel; got it

15:03:49 [Zakim]

+Ruben

15:03:51 [Zakim]

+??P14

15:03:55 [Zakim]

+??P13

15:03:56 [tzviya]

zakim, pick a victim

15:03:58 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dauwhe

15:04:04 [fjh]

zakim, code?

15:04:04 [Zakim]

the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh

15:04:04 [david_stroup]

585.217

15:04:08 [tzviya]

zakim, pick a victim

15:04:08 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ??P13

15:04:13 [ivan]

zakim, aabb is david_stroup

15:04:14 [Zakim]

+david_stroup; got it

15:04:14 [Zakim]

-??P14

15:04:32 [azaroth]

zakim, who is here?

15:04:32 [ivan]

zakim, who is here?

15:04:33 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:04:34 [fjh]

zakim, ipcaller is me

15:04:34 [tmichel]

who is P13 and P14

15:04:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Liam, liza, tmichel, david_stroup, Ruben, ??P13,

15:04:36 [Zakim]

... [IPcaller]

15:04:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Liam, liza, tmichel, david_stroup, Ruben, ??P13,

15:04:36 [Zakim]

... [IPcaller]

15:04:38 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bjdmeest, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, liza, PatPagano, david_stroup, TimCole, murakami, Nishit_Jain, azaroth, tzviya, mgylling, philm, dkaplan3, tmichel, clapierre, brady_duga,

15:04:38 [Zakim]

... pkra, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, liam, astearns_, plinss, trackbot

15:04:38 [Zakim]

+fjh; got it

15:04:38 [Zakim]

+??P14

15:04:45 [fjh]

zakim, who is here>

15:04:45 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is here>', fjh

15:04:47 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:04:52 [fjh]

zakim, who is here?

15:04:52 [Zakim]

On the phone I see clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Liam, liza, tmichel, david_stroup, Ruben, ??P13, fjh,

15:04:55 [Zakim]

... ??P14, ??P24

15:04:55 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bjdmeest, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, liza, PatPagano, david_stroup, TimCole, murakami, Nishit_Jain, azaroth, tzviya, mgylling, philm, dkaplan3, tmichel, clapierre, brady_duga,

15:04:55 [Zakim]

... pkra, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, liam, astearns_, plinss, trackbot

15:04:57 [Zakim]

-??P24

15:05:14 [fjh]

ScribeNick: fjh

15:05:21 [fjh]

Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

15:05:21 [bjdmeest]

zakim, Ruben is bjdmeest

15:05:22 [Zakim]

+bjdmeest; got it

15:05:28 [fjh]

zakim, who is here?

15:05:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Liam, liza, tmichel, david_stroup, bjdmeest, ??P13,

15:05:32 [Zakim]

... fjh, ??P14

15:05:32 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bjdmeest, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, liza, PatPagano, david_stroup, TimCole, murakami, Nishit_Jain, azaroth, tzviya, mgylling, philm, dkaplan3, tmichel, clapierre, brady_duga,

15:05:32 [Zakim]

... pkra, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, liam, astearns_, plinss, trackbot

15:05:43 [fjh]

zakim, mute fjh

15:05:43 [Zakim]

fjh should now be muted

15:05:49 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:05:52 [fjh]

zakim, unmute me

15:05:52 [Zakim]

fjh should no longer be muted

15:05:53 [Zakim]

-??P24

15:05:57 [tzviya]

http://www.w3.org/2014/09/15-dpub-minutes.html

15:06:01 [bjdmeest]

zakim, mute bjdmeest

15:06:01 [Zakim]

bjdmeest should now be muted

15:06:01 [fjh]

Topic: Minutes review

15:06:07 [fjh]

no comments

15:06:13 [fjh]

minutes approved

15:06:36 [murakami]

zakim, ??P14 is me

15:06:36 [Zakim]

+murakami; got it

15:06:38 [fjh]

Topic: Changes at Dom level for Pagination

15:06:52 [Julie]

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15:07:02 [fjh]

brady: use cases have been on list for while, one use case is styling

15:07:12 [fjh]

… useful for content creators

15:07:29 [tzviya]

use cases: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Pagination.2FDOM_interaction

15:07:32 [fjh]

… implementers, e.g creating ebook reader, no idea how to enter paginated mode

15:07:47 [fjh]

… turn pages, note visible pages, select text across pages. no apis exist

15:08:14 [fjh]

… often use internal APIs, webkit has some, CSS hacks like using columns or frames/Javascript

15:08:30 [Zakim]

+ +1.646.336.aacc

15:08:32 [Luc]

Luc has joined #dpub

15:08:35 [fjh]

… doesn’t work with fancy page styling, semantics that it is a page is lost

15:09:09 [Julie]

Julie Morris at 646 n umber

15:09:10 [dauwhe]

q+

15:09:16 [fjh]

… cannot use private port of webkit in ebook readers ?

15:09:28 [fjh]

… need to be able to state it is a book with pages

15:09:28 [ivan]

q+

15:09:34 [fjh]

… listed many use cases

15:10:02 [fjh]

… this is summary of problem, need public API for handling pagination, details not clear eyt

15:10:06 [fjh]

s/eyt/yet/

15:10:29 [fjh]

… need to understand a design, then API for control

15:10:56 [fjh]

… DOM should be able to handle pages, possible extensions

15:10:57 [tzviya]

ack dauwhe

15:10:58 [fjh]

Zakim: q?

15:11:34 [fjh]

dauwhe: discussed at CSS F2F a few weeks ago, peter lynch co-chair and tag member

15:11:43 [fjh]

… box tree api

15:11:49 [fjh]

zakim, who is making noise?

15:12:02 [Zakim]

fjh, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bill_Kasdorf (8%), murakami (12%), dauwhe (96%), duga (67%)

15:12:13 [fjh]

… separate from DOM, could navigate, all pagination defined

15:12:57 [fjh]

… deprecate geometry apis in DOM and move to box tree api

15:13:21 [dauwhe]

s/peter lynch/peter linss/

15:13:32 [fjh]

… seems good

15:13:32 [fjh]

???: is this a DOM for boxes?

15:13:50 [ivan]

s/???/brady_duga/

15:13:52 [tzviya]

s/???/brady

15:13:56 [fjh]

dauwhe: can move around boxes and deal with them, especially element fragmentation across boxes

15:14:00 [fjh]

.. or pages

15:14:05 [tzviya]

ack ivan

15:14:06 [fjh]

s/../.../

15:14:28 [Luc]

mute me

15:14:41 [Bill_Kasdorf]

The people who are working on overlapping structures may be able to make some useful contributions to this issue

15:14:43 [fjh]

ivan: if this CSS work really happens then really need to be involved in this

15:14:54 [fjh]

q+

15:15:17 [fjh]

Ivan: how does current API work when some tries to re-paginate

15:15:17 [david_stroup]

https://www.npmjs.org/package/boxtree

15:15:31 [tzviya]

q?

15:15:54 [fjh]

ivan: re annotation, what is the anchor that is used for an annotation for a page?

15:15:59 [Luc]

60#

15:16:04 [Luc]

61#

15:16:11 [fjh]

? depends on implementation

15:16:23 [fjh]

dauwhe: depends on the implementation

15:16:26 [ivan]

s/?/brady_duga:/

15:16:32 [fjh]

… find known anchor elements

15:16:43 [fjh]

… some are more fragile than others

15:16:57 [fjh]

s;dauwhe: depends; brady_duga: depends/

15:17:14 [ivan]

q+

15:17:25 [fjh]

… re pagination, depends, webkit just reload document, using printing architecture

15:17:31 [fjh]

… with columns, re-flow

15:17:39 [fjh]

… re-pagination means starting over

15:17:45 [fjh]

… what was behind the question?

15:17:55 [fjh]

ivan: just wnated to clarify

15:18:21 [fjh]

brady_duga: tricks to start re=paginating from current page, but earlier pages might start at strange locations

15:18:46 [fjh]

ivan: webit has API but other tools also have APIs, are these other APIs public or private?

15:18:58 [fjh]

brady_duga: haven’t looked, but there are browser demos

15:19:11 [fjh]

… use different mechanisms, details not clear

15:19:31 [fjh]

… issue of native code

15:19:45 [dauwhe]

q+

15:20:12 [fjh]

ivan: this group cannot decide what is in the DOM, but could list solutions that are public with pros/cons

15:20:31 [fjh]

… realistic

15:20:42 [fjh]

brady_duga: not clear, have looked at WebKit one

15:21:21 [fjh]

… other approaches are mostly browser hacks or custom ports

15:21:26 [ivan]

q-

15:21:33 [tzviya]

ack fjh

15:22:12 [tzviya]

ack dauwhe

15:22:29 [dauwhe]

http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow-3/#paginated-overflow

15:22:33 [fjh]

fjh: maybe a task force is appropriate for box tree work, to include annotations or dpub, depends on chartering

15:22:46 [fjh]

dauwhe: have posted on how to handle overflow, see link above

15:23:02 [fjh]

q?

15:23:32 [fjh]

tzviya: print and page are different

15:23:39 [fjh]

… could also talk about other non-scrolling views

15:23:57 [Bill_Kasdorf]

+1 to "non-scrolling view" instead of "pages"

15:24:04 [fjh]

… next step, think how we might work with CSS group on box tree work

15:25:16 [tzviya]

action @brady_duga draft basic needs of pagination API

15:25:16 [trackbot]

Error finding '@brady_duga'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.

15:25:28 [fjh]

ivan: use dpub pagination repository

15:25:41 [tzviya]

action duga draft basic needs of pagination API

15:25:41 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-23 - Draft basic needs of pagination api [on Brady Duga - due 2014-09-29].

15:26:05 [fjh]

: box tree in CSS WG or where?

15:26:15 [ivan]

s/:/brady:/

15:26:37 [fjh]

dauwhe: peter linss is driving this, figuring out context, suggested joint TAG CSS work

15:26:45 [tzviya]

q?

15:26:47 [fjh]

brady: we might want to do something at TPAC as a joint session

15:27:05 [azaroth]

+1 to joint TPAC session

15:27:32 [fjh]

tzviya: brady, will you be at tpac?

15:27:35 [fjh]

brady: yes

15:27:53 [tzviya]

action tzviya plan CSS + pagination API meeting

15:27:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-24 - Plan css + pagination api meeting [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-09-29].

15:28:26 [clapierre]

I just registered with no problems and paid ;)

15:28:37 [fjh]

tzviya: other comments

15:28:38 [fjh]

none

15:28:52 [fjh]

Topic: Pagination - layout & markup update

15:29:11 [fjh]

dauwhe: request new publication location for WD

15:29:44 [fjh]

… some think latinreq since not updated since march, obbiously not familiar with w3c time scales

15:30:07 [fjh]

… added use case where text moves from 1 column into multiple columns

15:30:15 [fjh]

… common design, hard to do in CSS

15:30:48 [fjh]

ivan: no problem, can update WD

15:31:15 [fjh]

… watch out for moratium for TPAC

15:31:40 [liam]

[moratorium on publishing - 24 October through 3 November ]

15:31:57 [fjh]

two publishing moratorium later this year:

15:31:58 [fjh]

* 24 October through 3 November during TPAC 2014 [1]

15:31:59 [fjh]

* 19 December through 5 January 2015

15:32:05 [fjh]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2014AprJun/0134.html

15:32:19 [tzviya]

action tmichel publish updated version of latinreq with Dave

15:32:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-25 - Publish updated version of latinreq with dave [on Thierry Michel - due 2014-09-29].

15:32:25 [fjh]

discussion of when to publish

15:32:45 [fjh]

dave: plan to publish next Tue, 30 Sept

15:32:53 [fjh]

dave: will prepare draft

15:33:58 [fjh]

… have to deal with table cells and some other items, but need to ask what might be missing or where more work is needed, so good to publish

15:34:14 [fjh]

tzviya: stem section needs more work

15:34:31 [fjh]

… want tables that align on a character, such as for accounting books

15:34:40 [fjh]

… line and equals sign (??)

15:34:53 [liam]

s/line and/align on/

15:35:02 [pkra]

q+

15:35:07 [fjh]

… everyone that speciallizes in areas should take a look and see what they can add or update

15:35:29 [fjh]

… I’ve been working on pagination when customers try to print ebooks

15:35:47 [fjh]

… need some chemistry examples

15:35:54 [fjh]

… physics, math

15:36:05 [Bill_Kasdorf]

+1 to vertical alignment on an arbitrary character that needs to be specified--common examples: . ) + = etc.

15:36:15 [fjh]

… even scrreen captures would help, Dave can then respond

15:36:20 [fjh]

call for volunteers met with silence

15:36:45 [fjh]

dave: it would even help more if I can use some of the documents themselves, realize it might be an issue

15:36:59 [tzviya]

ack pkra

15:37:17 [fjh]

pkra: MathML specification has some examples

15:37:41 [fjh]

… such features make it hard to implement MathML, solution here might help

15:38:03 [fjh]

tzviya: exactly the sort of thing we are looking for

15:38:08 [fjh]

dave: right

15:38:28 [fjh]

Topic: Other Business

15:38:47 [fjh]

brady: CSS meets Thur, dpub Thur/Fri, why not schedule joint meeting on Tur

15:38:51 [fjh]

s/Tur/Thur/

15:39:00 [fjh]

pkra: will be looking at this tomorrow

15:39:13 [fjh]

s/pkra/tzviya/

15:39:20 [dauwhe]

q+

15:39:32 [fjh]

ivan: scheduling might be a challenge, many joint meetings

15:39:34 [tzviya]

ack dauwhe

15:39:55 [fjh]

dave: TPAC includes time every day for ad hoc meetings, does it not? could this be used?

15:40:24 [fjh]

ivan: schedule depends on WGs, some don’t observe those slots

15:40:59 [fjh]

ivan: if you have info on when CSS group might have slots that would help

15:41:44 [fjh]

Topic: Adjourn

15:41:46 [Zakim]

-liza

15:41:47 [Zakim]

-duga

15:41:48 [Zakim]

-Bill_Kasdorf

15:41:48 [Zakim]

-philm

15:41:49 [azaroth]

Bye all

15:41:49 [TimCole]

TimCole has left #dpub

15:41:49 [Zakim]

-Tzviya

15:41:50 [Zakim]

- +1.646.336.aacc

15:41:50 [Zakim]

-clapierre

15:41:50 [Zakim]

-??P13

15:41:52 [Zakim]

-Laura_Fowler

15:41:52 [Zakim]

-david_stroup

15:41:52 [pkra]

bye.

15:41:53 [dkaplan3]

dkaplan3 has left #dpub

15:41:53 [Zakim]

-TimCole

15:41:53 [Zakim]

-pkra

15:41:54 [Zakim]

-dauwhe

15:41:55 [Zakim]

-Liam

15:41:55 [Zakim]

-fjh

15:41:55 [Zakim]

-azaroth

15:41:59 [Zakim]

-bjdmeest

15:42:01 [Zakim]

-dkaplan3

15:42:04 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:42:05 [Zakim]

-murakami

15:42:13 [tmichel]

rrsagent,draft minutes

15:42:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel

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16:05:03 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, tmichel, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM

16:05:03 [Zakim]

DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended

16:05:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were clapierre, dauwhe, duga, dkaplan3, +1.212.364.aaaa, philm, Tzviya, TimCole, azaroth, pkra, Laura_Fowler, Bill_Kasdorf, Ivan, Liam, +1.585.217.aabb, liza, tmichel,

16:05:05 [Zakim]

... david_stroup, fjh, bjdmeest, murakami, +1.646.336.aacc

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