IRC log of aapi on 2014-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:51:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:51:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-irc
18:51:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
18:51:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aapi
18:51:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:51:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
18:51:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:51:30 [trackbot]
Date: 26 August 2014
18:52:21 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:54:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:54:56 [clown]
chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:54:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:55:12 [joanie]
clown: both :)
18:55:25 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:04:37 [clown]
zakim, who is noisy?
19:04:47 [Zakim]
clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joseph_Scheuhammer (33%), Joanmarie_Diggs (39%)
19:05:04 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:38 [clown]
agenda: this
19:05:50 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1199: (All) Browsers SHOULD note errors on console for missing required attributes -- review edits.
19:06:03 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
19:06:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:06:20 [clown]
agenda+ ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html)
19:06:27 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:06:32 [clown]
agenda+ ISSUE-514/ACTION-1341: (All) Spec says that aria-required is propagated to descendants in grid/treegrid. Verbiage needed in Core-AAM?
19:06:42 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1396: (All) Role grid maps to table role in AAPIs; need to also convey it is an interactive grid.
19:06:43 [Zakim]
-Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:07:11 [bgaraventa1979]
bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:07:17 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Progress on ATK API for position, level, etc.
19:07:28 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
19:07:34 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:34 [Zakim]
sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
19:07:37 [clown]
agenda+ ISSUE-674/ISSUE-522/ACTION-1471: (Cynthia, Joseph) Name computation.
19:07:45 [clown]
agenda+ Processing issues/actions:https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:07:51 [clown]
agenda+ be done.
19:07:53 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:53 [Zakim]
ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:08:12 [joanie]
Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
19:08:12 [Zakim]
ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:08:20 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
19:08:30 [joanie]
Scribenick: joanie
19:08:31 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:08:31 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:08:42 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhamer
19:08:42 [Zakim]
sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhamer'
19:08:58 [joanie]
regrets: David_Bolter
19:09:07 [joanie]
regrets: Cynthia_Shelly
19:09:08 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhmmaer
19:09:08 [Zakim]
sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhmmaer'
19:09:17 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:09:17 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:10:15 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 1
19:10:15 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "ACTION-1199: (All) Browsers SHOULD note errors on console for missing required attributes -- review edits." taken up [from clown]
19:10:22 [clown]
action-1199?
19:10:22 [trackbot]
action-1199 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft UAIG requirement (MAY in 1.0, SHOULD in 1.1?) for UAs to throw errors in the console when required attributes are missing. -- due 2014-05-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:10:22 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1199
19:10:34 [joanie]
JS: This is for David, who is not here.
19:10:49 [joanie]
JS: There is a statement in the author errors section of the core mapping document:
19:10:55 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#document-handling_author-errors
19:11:04 [joanie]
JS: I know Cynthia is ok with this change.
19:11:31 [joanie]
JS: There is a sentence now that user agents SHOULD report these errors by console. It used to be a MAY.
19:11:52 [joanie]
JS: I am now waiting for Mozilla to say yea or nay, and give me a reason why if it is a nay.
19:12:04 [joanie]
RS: Why do we care about reporting errors in the console?
19:12:22 [joanie]
JS: The original request/discussion at a face-to-face 2 years ago, maybe.
19:12:40 [joanie]
JS: The request was that the browser should make errors more clear.
19:12:52 [joanie]
RS: There are system settings that drive things like show sounds.
19:13:09 [joanie]
RS: If you have an alert, you can have it drive sounds.
19:13:49 [joanie]
JS: Clarifies that this is about authoring errors.
19:14:03 [joanie]
JS: But popping up an alert would impact end users.
19:14:19 [joanie]
JS: So the agreement was to have a MAY for console errors.
19:14:41 [joanie]
JS: But at the same meeting there was agreement to make it a SHOULD for ARIA 1.1.
19:14:59 [clown]
<span role="checkbox">…</span>
19:15:53 [joanie]
RS: Agrees emphatically that an alert would be inappropriate.
19:16:22 [joanie]
RS: Alert is NOT meant for validation.
19:16:42 [joanie]
JS: That is what we agreed at the face-to-face. And we suggested as an alternative, how about the error console?
19:16:55 [joanie]
RS: I wouldn't even suggest that.
19:17:40 [joanie]
RS: If someone is writing a validator for accessible content, these errors should be flagged in a console. The browser doesn't have to do anything for that.
19:17:49 [joanie]
JS: Right, because you have a special tool.
19:18:03 [joanie]
RS: Jon Gunderson does the same thing in his validator tool.
19:18:15 [joanie]
JS: Personally, there is where I think this sort of thing belongs.
19:18:22 [joanie]
RS: Agreed. Definitely.
19:18:42 [joanie]
RS: I think the entire statement should be removed (i.e. as opposed to even being left as a MAY)
19:18:53 [joanie]
RS: If no one is going to do it, what is the point?
19:19:10 [joanie]
JS: Cynthia is ok with this change.
19:19:23 [joanie]
JD: I don't have a strong opinion as long as authors find their errors.
19:19:41 [joanie]
RS: Yes, they can use (existing) tools to do this.
19:19:56 [joanie]
RS: To really make this work, a browser would need to build in a full accessibility checker.
19:20:30 [joanie]
JS: At the moment, the browser is going to handle the error and set the default value to False. So the browser is already handling it.
19:20:47 [joanie]
JS: So to play devil's advocate, why not have the browser log an error to console.
19:21:03 [joanie]
RS: I would take it out, but I don't have a strong opinion either way.
19:24:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich Proposal: Remove the text that suggests that a browser may, should, or must notify the user through console of missing required ARIA attributes.
19:24:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.493.aaaa
19:25:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]
+1
19:25:18 [clown]
scribenick: clown
19:25:19 [Zakim]
- +1.603.493.aaaa
19:25:23 [bgaraventa1979]
+1
19:25:28 [clown]
+1
19:26:26 [Zakim]
-Joanmarie_Diggs
19:27:55 [clown]
JS: I've added a note to remove the statement from the spec, and reopend the action.
19:27:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.493.aabb
19:28:09 [clown]
RS: I'll make a resolution.
19:28:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RESOLUTION: remove the text pertaining to console notification in action 1199
19:29:16 [clown]
zakim, aabb is Joanmarie_Diggs
19:29:16 [Zakim]
+Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
19:30:00 [joanie]
+1
19:30:12 [clown]
scribenick: joanie
19:30:20 [joanie]
Zakim, take up next item
19:30:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:30:39 [clown]
action-980?
19:30:39 [trackbot]
action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
19:30:39 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:30:43 [joanie]
JS: David is not here. I wanted to get an update on how he is progressing. It was due last week.
19:30:49 [joanie]
JS: Let's skip it until he is here.
19:30:54 [joanie]
Zakim, take up next item
19:30:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, joanie
19:31:02 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 3
19:31:02 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "ISSUE-671/ACTION-1492: (David) Mapping of aria-invalid should be as tokens, not as strings. (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0081.html)"
19:31:05 [Zakim]
... taken up [from clown]
19:31:18 [joanie]
JS: My proposal is... There's a link at the end of that agendum.
19:31:57 [joanie]
RS: So predefined tokens. I don't see why that's a problem.
19:32:13 [joanie]
JS: The current mapping guide states just copy the unknown value in.
19:32:21 [joanie]
JS: A better way to do it is just set it to False.
19:32:29 [joanie]
RS: I think that's probably correct.
19:32:38 [joanie]
JS: Plus UIA sets it to false.
19:32:52 [joanie]
RS: I think it's better to do that. Do we need to file any defects against browsers?
19:33:00 [joanie]
JS: Probably do.
19:33:17 [joanie]
JS: James Craig said "looks good to me", so Apple seems to be on board.
19:33:37 [joanie]
JS: I will make these changes then and mark the action as pending review to given everyone one last chance to agree or disagree.
19:34:21 [joanie]
Zakim, take up next item
19:34:21 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:34:29 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 4
19:34:29 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "ISSUE-514/ACTION-1341: (All) Spec says that aria-required is propagated to descendants in grid/treegrid. Verbiage needed in Core-AAM?" taken up [from clown]
19:34:47 [clown]
action-1341?
19:34:47 [trackbot]
action-1341 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Patch issue-514: treegrid and grid propagation requirement should be normative. -- due 2014-01-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:34:47 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1341
19:35:08 [joanie]
JS: This is something that James changed in the spec and then assigned the action to me to see if anything needs to be changed in the mapping document.
19:35:31 [joanie]
JS: (Reads what the spec now states re propagation)
19:35:41 [joanie]
JS: This is aria-readonly.
19:35:42 [Zakim]
-Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:36:13 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
19:36:26 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammmer
19:36:26 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammmer; got it
19:36:31 [joanie]
RS: So is just for the cells, or also the rows?
19:36:39 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:36:39 [Zakim]
sorry, clown, I do not see a party named 'Joseph_Scheuhammer'
19:36:40 [joanie]
JS: Do rows have a read-only property?
19:37:15 [joanie]
RS: It doesn't have it here for inherited states and properties.
19:38:00 [joanie]
RS: I don't see readonly on a grid cell. That's a bug.
19:38:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#gridcell
19:38:10 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#gridcell
19:38:12 [joanie]
JS: It's in the editor's draft.
19:38:25 [joanie]
RS: I'm looking at ARIA 1.1 document.
19:39:00 [joanie]
JS: It's not there under row.
19:39:19 [joanie]
RS: So it's inherited down to the grid cells? And we say that in the spec? Let's verify.
19:39:55 [joanie]
JS: Yes, it's in the grid role.
19:40:21 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1341
19:41:09 [joanie]
(Some discussion about the current wording)
19:41:13 [joanie]
JS: We can send it back to him with our questions about the wording.
19:41:32 [joanie]
s/back to him/back to James Craig/
19:43:06 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-grid
19:43:37 [joanie]
JS: The above is the mapping of grid. Do we want to put somewhere in there that if grid is readonly that propagates down to the grid cells?
19:47:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich Proposal: aria-readonly=“true” For elements with role=“gridcell” and no aria-readonly property the gridcell must inherit any author applied aria-readonly=“true” property from the containing grid or treegrid.
19:48:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
+1
19:48:27 [clown]
+1
19:48:39 [bgaraventa1979]
+1
19:49:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
joanie verbally stated +1 due to connectivity problems
19:49:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RESOLUTION: Adopt Rich’s proposal in action 1341
19:49:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
scribenick: richardschwerdtfeger
19:50:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim takeup next item
19:51:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, takeup next item
19:51:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'takeup next item', richardschwerdtfeger
19:51:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
agenda?
19:51:35 [clown]
zakim, take up item 5
19:51:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "ACTION-1396: (All) Role grid maps to table role in AAPIs; need to also convey it is an interactive grid." taken up [from clown]
19:51:50 [clown]
action-1396?
19:51:50 [trackbot]
action-1396 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:51:51 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
19:52:40 [joanie]
joanie has joined #aapi
19:53:06 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-grid
19:54:06 [clown]
action-1396?
19:54:06 [trackbot]
action-1396 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
19:54:07 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
19:54:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
clown: The text of the action item says: “Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?)"
19:56:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
rich: You should speak with cynthia
19:57:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
clown: a grid is like a spreadsheet. a treegrid is like a time table for a train
19:57:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
clown: treegrids allow cells to expand/collapse rows from a gridcell
19:58:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]
s/treegrid/table/
19:58:36 [clown]
s/a treegrid is like/a table is like/
19:58:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
clown: a table is static
20:00:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
rich: correct macox as James minuted that call but check with Cynthia
20:00:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, make log public
20:00:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make log public', richardschwerdtfeger
20:00:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, bye
20:00:58 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.603.493.aaaa, +1.603.493.aabb, Joseph_Scheuhammmer
20:00:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aapi
20:01:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, make minutes
20:01:22 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintues', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:01:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-aapi-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
20:04:44 [joanie]
RRSAgent, stop